Finishing Steps

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CanadianBrewGal

CanadianBrewGal

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Just need some direction/insight for the final stages of a cider I started. Details below:
5 Gallons of fresh pressed cider Started 09/23
treated with 2 crush Camden tablets
pitched dry champagne yeast Wyeast 4021
OG was 1.062
Tested this am and FG was 1.020.
Here is what I want to do now:
Clear it up with a gelatin fining for 48 hrs.
Back sweeten with xylitol
Carbonate it with corn sugar.
Bottle condition until Christmas.
My questions are:
is 48 hrs long enough for the gelatin?
How much xylitol would you add to get a fairly sweet cider
Is there anything else you would add?

Thanks in advance! :mug:
 
Hi CanadianBrewGal - and welcome.
I can try to offer an answer your three questions.
I have never used Xylitol but I would assume the answer is very similar to the amount of any sweetener you would add - You bench test to see how sweet you like the (in this case) cider in light of its ABV and acidity etc.
Is 48 hours likely to be long enough - That's like asking how much string you need to tie a package. Add the fining agent and check to see when the cider has cleared enough for the clarity you want. It may not clear , if , for example, there is a significant haze caused by pectins that have set or if there is a great deal of CO2 held by the liquid.
What else might I add? That depends on how the cider tastes. Is it acidic enough? Too acidic? Does it have a sufficient tannic bite? Is the flavor rich enough?
 
First of all, I need to correct myself. I mistyped my first post the FG was 1.020 not 1.002.
To me the cider tastes great but I have friends who prefer a sweet sparkling cider. I'm debating splitting the batch into 2 and sweetening half with the xylitol. I was hoping someone who has sweetened with xylitol had a formula they used and I could follow that (Like I said I don't like sweet cider so I wouldn't really know how much to add to make it suitable for friends who do).
The clarity of the cider is great save for a few particles floating. I have read various timeframes that people seem to use when fining with gelatin and I was unsure if 48hrs was standard practice (i had read one person saying a month at least).
Finally I was wondering if someone would weigh in on bottle carbing. At 1.020, priming with corn sugar do I run the risk of the dreaded bottle bombs?
 
Bernard is correct in that the amount of sweetness is totally subjective. Try a starting point of 1 cup of xylitol per 5G.
For my cold crashing /gelatin, I chill it down to as close to 32 as I can get it overnight and hit it with gelatin in the morning. It's pretty clear in 24 hours, but I usually wait a couple days before bottling. The gelatin does help form a nice solid sediment that helps prevent sucking things up when you siphon it.
1.020 is quite high for a cider- they usually ferment down to closer to 1.000, so I'd be a little worried that it stalled on you. The risk would be that when you add more fermentables and warm things up to carbonate, the yeast may keep working on your original sugars leading to bombs. If you have warmed things up, and given the fermenter a shake to rouse the yeast and consistently get the 1.020, then I guess she's done.
When I carbonate my ciders/grafs, I like to use 1 can of frozen apple juice concentrate per 5G. Lends a little extra apple flavor and the amount of fermentable sugars is just right.
 
1.020 is considered to be sweet, and yes you will get bottle bombs if you bottle that. Any champagne yeast will bring 1.062 cider to at or below 1.000. There's still a ways to go.

Xylitol is very much like ordinary sugar in sweetness, and for me about 3 TBSP per gallon gives me semi-sweet, a bit lower than where yours is now.
 
The fermentation for this thing has been very erratic. Like I said I pitched a champagne yeast and yeast nutrient in Sept. My cider's OG read 1.062. I saw the cider moving about in the carboy but no Co2 action in the airlock but I wasn't concern. 2 weeks later I noticed some C02 action. I left it alone and 1 month later it was still bubbling away. I took an SG reading on 10/29 just to see and the SG was 1.040. Up until that point, the temperature had been a steady 68 degrees. I ramped it up 72 degrees and jostled it a bit and it continued to ferment for another 3 weeks. I've taken 3 reading over the past week and seemed to have levelled out at 1.020.
 
I'm debating splitting the batch and keeping 1/2 as is- a semisweet still cider. The other 1/2 pitching more yeast and see about bringing it down closer 1.000.
 
You shouldn't need any more yeast. Without seeing/tasting the cider, I'm going sticking my neck out making comments, but I'll go out on a limb and say its just not finished yet. But there is a chance that it IS finished and you have made a naturally sweet cider. If you bottle at 1.020, you may have bottle bombs as the yeast keeps working.
I would suggest a cautious approach, but you don't have to abandon your plans to try to bottle some Cider for Christmas gifts.
The cider should be sweet enough as it is; I'd siphon off a gallon, add the appropriate amount of priming sugar, and bottle using 22 oz. "bomber" bottles. The 22 oz. bottles are thicker than the regular 12 oz bottles, and you should get about 5 bottles from a gallon. Put the bottles in a plastic tub with a lid while they are carbing up, so if they break, they'll be contained.
A week or at least a few days before Christmas, open one of the bottles and see how it came out. If its carbonated properly and tastes ok, you'll have 4 to give away. You can then go ahead and bottle the rest, or if there are problems you can make some adjustments.
Good Luck :mug:
 
Thanks I may try that. I had a friend over last night try a small sample. They loved the overall flavour of it but wanted it fizzy (apparently my suggestion of dropping a Alka Seltzer in there wasn't going to fly).
Do you think it would help to maybe giving the carboy one last enthusiastic hug and wrapping it in a heating blanket for a few days to try and wake up the buggers to finish the job?
 
It seems your ferment has stalled. That yeast should go totally dry. You didn't mention adding any nutrients when you pitched the yeast, maybe they've run out of nitrogen. If you have any yeast nutrient or DAP I would add some and give the cider a good stir to bring the yeast back into solution. In a pinch you can boil a pack of bread yeast in 1/2 cup of water and use that for nutrient.

1.020 is a lot of remaining sugar. Something's wrong here.
 
I know you said "fresh pressed cider" but was it without preservatives? Sometimes orchards automatically put in some. I tried to ferment some cider not knowing that it had preservatives before. I got a weird fermentation very similar to the one you describe. It also stopped at 1.020ish and wouldn't move. It wasn't till long after that I learned that there was sorbate or something in there.

Just a thought....
 
Maylar said:
It seems your ferment has stalled. That yeast should go totally dry. You didn't mention adding any nutrients when you pitched the yeast, maybe they've run out of nitrogen. If you have any yeast nutrient or DAP I would add some and give the cider a good stir to bring the yeast back into solution. In a pinch you can boil a pack of bread yeast in 1/2 cup of water and use that for nutrient.

1.020 is a lot of remaining sugar. Something's wrong here.
Click to expand...

I did use a yeast nutrient. As I mention the fermentation was very bizarre - very slow to start (which I thought may had been cause by the campden tablets).

If it is stalled - what are my options? My original plan included fining it with gelatin not because the cider is cloudy but thought that may pull some of the yeast out of it. Is that a viable option?
I have seen some discussion on here about pasteurizing after carbonation which I can try.
Or because the yeast has been stalled for over a week now do I even run the risk of bottle bombs. I mean if it's not chomping through the sugar in there now would adding more sugar reactivate the yeast? :confused:
 
It's the 1.020 that we can't understand. There's no reason for it to have stopped there. You did everything right. If the ferment has truly stalled, you're between a rock and a hard place - if you bottle now the yeast could wake up again and make bombs. If it's really finished, you won't get any carbonation at all.

Not to sound condescending, but have you verified that your hydrometer reads 1.000 in water? Something's wrong here.
 
Yep - I use the same hydrometer for all my beers and it has always been bang on for OGs and FGs.
I may just try an earlier suggestion of bottling a few and store them in a storage bin with a lid to see if anything happens
 
Maylar said:
Could your yeast have been old, as in out-of-date? I'm still looking for an explanation for stopping at 1.020.
Click to expand...

That is a possibility. I had bought the cider before I went away for a few days and wanted to get it going before I left. My LHBS was closed so I stopped by a make on premise wine store who sold me the champagne yeast (it wasn't my first choice in yeast but beggars can't be choosers).
If it is old what are my options?
 
Give it a swirl and heat it up 2 degrees and it should start working again. Champagne yeast usually will go down many more points. Used 1/4 tsp of Stevia in 5 gals of cider SG = 1.000 (cider yeast from Ontariobeerkegs.com) and it tastes fine. Bulk food store item. I had one 5 gallon unit at SG = .998 and used 1/2 tsp total of Stevia for this batch but have not tasted it yet since it needs to settle out more.
 
I swirled it and put it by the hot water tank in the basement. I'll recheck it on the weekend. If nothing happens I'm going to sit there and drink all 5 gallons of sweet flat cider myself.:tank:
 
CanadianBrewGal said:
I swirled it and put it by the hot water tank in the basement. I'll recheck it on the weekend. If nothing happens I'm going to sit there and drink all 5 gallons of sweet flat cider myself.:tank:
Click to expand...

The Wyeast is a smack-pack, right? Did the yeast packet swell up like it should when you smacked it?

Can you measure pH?

Still trying to figure out what went wrong.
 
It was dry yeast that i rehydrated and added the yeast nutrient to.
I haven't ever tested the pH - might look into a test kit in the new year.
I have made beers no problem it's just this cider that has given me issues. I can only speculate that it may be one of the following:
1. The yeast was outdated - I didn't buy it from my LHBS and I didn't even think to check the date on it either.
2. The farm I bought the cider from treated it with preservatives and didn't tell me - I doubt that because this is a very much a Mom & Pop store that just write on the jugs CiIDER in a black sharpie.
3. I may have put too much campden tablets in (I believe I crushed 2 tablets for 5 gallons) or didn't wait long enough - unlikely but stranger things have happened.
4. My yeast is just incredibly slow and will perk up once I've raised the temp and give them a swirl. (Clinging to this theory)
 
An SG of 1.062 sounds a bit high unless you got your hands on some exceptional apples this season. So you might have some reason to suspect your hydrometer is not accurate. Check your hydrometer against distilled water at the temp the hydrometer is rated at. It should be 1.000. If it is a little bit off, correct your readings by adding or subtracting the deviation you found when you tested it on distilled water. If it is way off, throw it away and buy a new one. If you used a hydrometer for your SG and the juice had a lot of pulp in it, the hydrometer is not giving you the correct SG because the pulp changes the density of the juice independently of its sugar content. Buy a refractometer for your initial readings then switch to the hydrometer when the alcohol content starts to rise. If you are measuring your gravity without degassing your sample, that will give you an erroneous gravity measurement as well. Degas by heating your sample to 120 deg and agitating it until you can't get anymore bubbles to rise to the top. Cool the sample to the calibration temp of your hydrometer and measure the gravity.

If your current gravity really is 1.020, it is probably stuck. There are a lot of possible reasons for this but it could be a positive thing if you like naturally sweet hard cider. As mentioned above, it is usually very risky to bottle cider at this SG because further fermentation could over pressure your bottles. However, some French ciders are bottled at 1.025 but these have been completely depleted in nitrogen to intentionally stop fermentation before going to dryness (FG=1.000)
 

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