Fining with gelatin under pressure

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csantoni

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I have a Spike Flex+ and use a spunding valve for the last few points of gravity to get a head start on carbonating. I cold crash in the Flex+ when it's already at ~12 psi and want to fine with gelatin for my current batch. What's the best way to do this?

In another recent batch I didn't cold crash and just injected the gelatin into the keg before lagering but I'd like to crash this batch and I think that's the best time to add the gelatin.
 
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csantoni

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I guess I should add that my current plan is to use the syringe injector I made for the keg and connect through the gas in ball lock on the Spike manifold. I have no idea if it will handle 12 psi though.
 

Tom R

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I get the beer down to near-freezing temp, either in keg or conical.
I'll relieve the pressure to about 5 PSI, then inject gelatin
IMG_0346.JPG
using a syringe into a "gas in" post on the keg, or a post on the conical lid.
Keep pressure on the syringe plunger when installing the ball lock unless you want beer flying everywhere!
 

Beerstein

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I guess I should add that my current plan is to use the syringe injector I made for the keg and connect through the gas in ball lock on the Spike manifold. I have no idea if it will handle 12 psi though.
I'm pretty sure it won't. I had a near death experience with a new syringe recently and a keg under pressure.
 

Beerstein

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That’s the part I was hoping to avoid. I hate to vent that pressure I spent a week capturing via spunding.
Me too. I wonder if there is a better (higher pressure) dosing mechanism. Could be handy to inject extra sugars too.
 

Biggz1313

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I use a gelatin rocket. I make my gelatin solution, I add it a 20oz PET soda bottle, add a carbonation cap, carb the bottle to about 6psi above what the keg is at, then use a jumper to shoot the gelatin into the gas post of the keg. See picture below:

I obviously don't normally have coke zero left in the bottle, make sure it's clean and sanitized before attempting . I also typically use one of my stainless steel carb caps from my fermzilla allrounder, so that's why I have a liquid ball lock on one end, but I'm pretty sure these red caps are gas only (at least it's always super dang hard to get a liquid ball lock on them) so if you have the plastic carb caps I recommend you use two gas quick disconnects.
PXL_20211007_180140507.jpg
 
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Biggz1313

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I have a Spike Flex+ and use a spunding valve for the last few points of gravity to get a head start on carbonating. I cold crash in the Flex+ when it's already at ~12 psi and want to fine with gelatin for my current batch. What's the best way to do this?

In another recent batch I didn't cold crash and just injected the gelatin into the keg before lagering but I'd like to crash this batch and I think that's the best time to add the gelatin.
Just re-read the last part of your post, you should only use gelatin after the beer has been cold crashed as close to or below 35*F for a couple days and make sure the keg is in it's final resting place or put in it's final place very shortly after adding the gelatin. Fining a second time just doesn't work very well in my experience, and the colder the beer the better.
 
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csantoni

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you should only use gelatin after the beer has been cold crashed as close to or below 35*F for a couple days
I’ve seen conflicting opinions on this, yours is one method, another is to add finings at about 50F on the way down to crash temp. I intend to add at 50F this time.
 
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csantoni

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Biggz1313

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What if you added the gelatin to your serving keg prior to transfer?
I've tried this with mixed results. Part of the problem is you need the gelatin to cool and settle down through the liquid to the bottom, catching lost of yeast and haze proteins as it falls. My theory is (not scientifically proven, just my anecdotal experience) that when you put it in keg before transferring, the gelatin cools to the point where you can't transfer the beer in fast enough and it becomes less efficient. I thought for sure transferring the beer in on top of the gelatin would cause some turbulence which further mixed things possibly grabbing more haze particles and yeast but the two times I tried it just didn't work out that way. Wish I had the time to actually try and do an experiment with this.
 

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Bear in mind that spunding keeps most of the CO2 in solution (especially in cold beer), so while you do lose some CO2, you don’t lose a lot. In addition to above about effectiveness of gelatin at lower temperatures, this is another reason to cold crash before fining -> less CO2 lost from depressurizing!
 

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Your not getting any gelatin coating in your gas posts? About 50% of the time I have to soak the mason jars I use in PBW for a while to loosen the gelatin that some time sticks inside the jar. I'm guessing it is a flash cooling issue or something because I pretty much spray out right after I put the hot gelatin into the fermenter and about 50% of the time there is basically patches of rubberized gelatin in the jar that cannot just be sprayed out. I will say I may be getting this rubberized gelatin because I actually always boil it to help remove oxygen that is introduced during the mixing process. I read way back on here that a scientist type guy said that boiling won't hurt the gelatin process even though that goes against other views, so I tried it and I have done it this way for years and it works every time. I prefer doing gelatin in the fermenter as I can pull basically a full keg of almost pristine clear beer right at kegging. Usually by day 2/3 in the keg or so beer is crystal clear. I tend to force carb the day after kegging also. They have a thread or two on here where they have a dry hopper configuration where they can purge the hops of O2 before they dry hop and I would think that would also work for gelatin at whatever pressure you want.
 
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Biggz1313

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Your not getting any gelatin coating in your gas posts? About 50% of the time I have to soak the mason jars I use in PBW for a while to loosen the gelatin that some time sticks inside the jar. I'm guessing it is a flash cooling issue or something because I pretty much spray out right after I put the hot gelatin into the fermenter and about 50% of the time there is basically patches of rubberized gelatin in the jar that cannot just be sprayed out. I will say I may be getting this rubberized gelatin because I actually always boil it to help remove oxygen that is introduced during the mixing process. I read way back on here that a scientist type guy said that boiling won't hurt the gelatin process even though that goes against other views, so I tried it and I have done it this way for years and it works every time. I prefer doing gelatin in the fermenter as I can pull basically a full keg of almost pristine clear beer right at kegging. Usually by day 2/3 in the keg or so beer is crystal clear. I tend to force carb the day after kegging also. They have a thread or two on here where they have a dry hopper configuration where they can purge the hops of O2 before they dry hop and I would think that would also work for gelatin at whatever pressure you want.
I don't boil either in fear of this happening. My poppets have been clean so far. I don't gelatin in the fermenter because I use a Fermzilla All-rounder and it has a floating dip tub (as do my kegs) so I'm getting really clear beer after the cold crash, and then the gelatin in the keg is just taking care of any cold haze. Also, because the surface area of the liquid in my all rounder is so large, I fear if I shoot gelatin into it as well, it won't be as effective because the gelatin won't be able to "Fall" through most of the beer, but it may be something I try one day, we'll see. I also inevitably pull a small bit of trub from the fermenter as well, so I'd have to gelatin the keg anyway so I dunno, we'll see.
 

superiorsat

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I fear if I shoot gelatin into it as well, it won't be as effective because the gelatin won't be able to "Fall" through most of the beer, but it may be something I try one day, we'll see. I also inevitably pull a small bit of trub from the fermenter as well, so I'd have to gelatin the keg anyway so I dunno, we'll see.
I've done it in the keg before but it's just is a little extra garbage you have to dump before you get a cleaner flow. I also catch myself sucking in a little trub now and then but it settles fast and the gelatin keeps on working after it gets into the keg. Like I said 2/3 days and beer is crystal clear. I'm not a LODO guy but I don't like this idea that O2 I mixed in with the gelatin is getting into the beer so I boil to minimize the effects . On a small batch scale the beer usually doesn't last long enough for the O2 to do too much damage IMO. Unless it is a NEIPA but no gelatin in those.
 

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I don't boil either in fear of this happening. My poppets have been clean so far. I don't gelatin in the fermenter because I use a Fermzilla All-rounder and it has a floating dip tub (as do my kegs) so I'm getting really clear beer after the cold crash, and then the gelatin in the keg is just taking care of any cold haze. Also, because the surface area of the liquid in my all rounder is so large, I fear if I shoot gelatin into it as well, it won't be as effective because the gelatin won't be able to "Fall" through most of the beer, but it may be something I try one day, we'll see. I also inevitably pull a small bit of trub from the fermenter as well, so I'd have to gelatin the keg anyway so I dunno, we'll see.
I'm not familiar with the internal workings of the Fermzilla, so maybe you can answer something I've wondered about. I ferment in a couple of stainless steel tanks with chiller coils for temperature control. I've toyed with the idea of installing top draw diptubes, but figured they'd get tangled up with the coils. Have you, or anyone else, had this problem?
 

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I'm not familiar with the internal workings of the Fermzilla, so maybe you can answer something I've wondered about. I ferment in a couple of stainless steel tanks with chiller coils for temperature control. I've toyed with the idea of installing top draw diptubes, but figured they'd get tangled up with the coils. Have you, or anyone else, had this problem?
I do know there is a cooling coil available for the fermzilla's but I haven't purchased them, those and glycol chiller are still on my wishlist. I would imaging based on how they install into the lid of the fermzilla there shouldn't be any issue with the floating diptubes. Most of the time my floating diptubes stay outside against the edge of the fermenter, and the coil would be in the central portion so I don't see it really being an issue in a stainless fermentor because I think they would act exactly the same way. I've got them in my kegs as well and love them, the only modification I make to them is I slide a stainless steel nut over the end of the diptube before I attach the floaty ball to it so that I eliminate any chance of the tube somehow getting above the surface of the beer.
 

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I use a gelatin rocket. I make my gelatin solution, I add it a 20oz PET soda bottle, add a carbonation cap, carb the bottle to about 6psi above what the keg is at, then use a jumper to shoot the gelatin into the gas post of the keg. See picture below:

I obviously don't normally have coke zero left in the bottle, make sure it's clean and sanitized before attempting . I also typically use one of my stainless steel carb caps from my fermzilla allrounder, so that's why I have a liquid ball lock on one end, but I'm pretty sure these red caps are gas only (at least it's always super dang hard to get a liquid ball lock on them) so if you have the plastic carb caps I recommend you use two gas quick disconnects.
View attachment 744829
I did exactly this recently when adding extract flavoring through my All Rounder gas post. I bought a .77 cent Walmart brand bottle of tonic water to use so I wouldn't have to worry about flavor transfer. Worked perfectly. It was a good test because I'll do it again soon with gelatin on another beer.

I'm curious if anyone has had a problem with gelatin gumming up the post or ball lock disconnect.
 

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I do know there is a cooling coil available for the fermzilla's but I haven't purchased them, those and glycol chiller are still on my wishlist. I would imaging based on how they install into the lid of the fermzilla there shouldn't be any issue with the floating diptubes. Most of the time my floating diptubes stay outside against the edge of the fermenter, and the coil would be in the central portion so I don't see it really being an issue in a stainless fermentor because I think they would act exactly the same way. I've got them in my kegs as well and love them, the only modification I make to them is I slide a stainless steel nut over the end of the diptube before I attach the floaty ball to it so that I eliminate any chance of the tube somehow getting above the surface of the beer.
Great idea with the stainless steel nut. I'll be trying that. 👍
 

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I use a gelatin rocket. I make my gelatin solution, I add it a 20oz PET soda bottle, add a carbonation cap, carb the bottle to about 6psi above what the keg is at, then use a jumper to shoot the gelatin into the gas post of the keg. See picture below:

I obviously don't normally have coke zero left in the bottle, make sure it's clean and sanitized before attempting . I also typically use one of my stainless steel carb caps from my fermzilla allrounder, so that's why I have a liquid ball lock on one end, but I'm pretty sure these red caps are gas only (at least it's always super dang hard to get a liquid ball lock on them) so if you have the plastic carb caps I recommend you use two gas quick disconnects.
View attachment 744829
That's how I do it. Saw it on Dr Hans.
 

Beermeister32

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Gelatin injector works great. Timing not that critical, should be injected into a chilled keg 34F, but I’ve done them at ambient and it worked fine. Bloom the gelatin for 5-10 minutes then hit it with microwave bursts until 165F. Injector was fabricated from a meat injector from the BBQ section at Lowes.

222057F8-D82E-4371-B273-AE7045E3238E.jpeg
 

Gusso

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I use a gelatin rocket. I make my gelatin solution, I add it a 20oz PET soda bottle, add a carbonation cap, carb the bottle to about 6psi above what the keg is at, then use a jumper to shoot the gelatin into the gas post of the keg. See picture below:

I obviously don't normally have coke zero left in the bottle, make sure it's clean and sanitized before attempting . I also typically use one of my stainless steel carb caps from my fermzilla allrounder, so that's why I have a liquid ball lock on one end, but I'm pretty sure these red caps are gas only (at least it's always super dang hard to get a liquid ball lock on them) so if you have the plastic carb caps I recommend you use two gas quick disconnects.
View attachment 744829
One difference on mine is a piece of hose on the cap to the bottom of the bottle. And I use a smaller bottle (12 oz).
 
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