fermenting temp monitoring

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

rhythm

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
29
Reaction score
2
Location
Lake Forest
I am using an STC-1000 sensor to monitor wort temp during fermentation, with the sensor taped up to the side of the carboy and insulated with a bit of bubble wrap and tape. I have noticed that when the mini-fridge shuts off, the sensor temp will continue to drop a bit. Nothing extreme - it might drop around 0.5C below the shutoff point. Just curious, is this because the wort temp actually continues to drop just a bit after the compressor has shut off? Or is it more likely that the sensor, despite my attempts to insulate it, is still influenced a bit from the surrounding air?

Thanks,
Greg
 
Heat flows from warmer areas to cooler areas. In order for the fermentation chamber to cool the beer, it has to be colder than the beer temperature. So, when the compressor comes on, the chamber cools significantly below the beer temp. The beer in the fermenter represents a large thermal mass, so lots of heat must flow out of it in order for the temp to drop, and this takes time. Since the controller is measuring (mostly) the beer temp, by the time the beer reaches the set point, the chamber is quite a bit cooler. The compressor shuts off, but the chamber is still colder than the beer, and heat continues to flow out of the beer, until the heat coming out of the beer warms up the chamber to the beer temp. The chamber warms up, and the beer cools down. The ratio of the thermal masses of the beer vs. chamber, and the temp differential when the compressor shuts off, determines how much the beer temp will undershoot the set point.

Half a degree undershoot isn't bad. Especially when you realize that the beer in the interior of the fermenter is slightly warmer than the beer at the sides of the fermenter.

Brew on :mug:
 
All insulation materials work by trapping still air. While bubble wrap is not considered an insulation matrial Per se, it does trap still air and most likely insulates somewhat. Try replacing the bubble wrap with a block of styrofoam packing. Cut a recess to receive the sensor, and be sure the ends of the sensor are covered with insulation. See if that makes a difference. And BTW, I dont think .5C is going to make a real difference in your beer. I assume you're asking for purely acaemic purposes?
 
Thanks for the replies. Yes, my question was indeed for academic purposes only. I'm not too worried about a small fluctuation in the temp. It sounds like the continued temperature drop is from both things: beer continuing to cool a little bit after compressor shutoff, and imperfect insulation from the surrounding air. I'll try some styrofoam next time around. The closer I can get to monitoring only the beer temp, the better.

Thanks again.
 
Especially when you realize that the beer in the interior of the fermenter is slightly warmer than the beer at the sides of the fermenter.

This isn't necessarily true. During a really active fermentation the fermenting wort is churning quite a bit, so when the most exterior liquid is being cooled it's transferring that temp. pretty quickly throughout the vessel. And if you have a fermenter you aren't actively cooling or heating, all the liquid whether in the middle or exterior is basically identical in temperature.
 
This isn't necessarily true. During a really active fermentation the fermenting wort is churning quite a bit, so when the most exterior liquid is being cooled it's transferring that temp. pretty quickly throughout the vessel. And if you have a fermenter you aren't actively cooling or heating, all the liquid whether in the middle or exterior is basically identical in temperature.

Actually, it is necessarily true. Even when the beer is churning there is a boundary layer between the rapidly moving wort and the inside surface of the fermentation vessel. There is essentially zero movement of the beer at that surface, and there is a lot of shear going on in the boundary layer. The inner limit of the boundary layer is where the fluid is moving at the same speed as the bulk. There will still be a thermal gradient across this boundary layer. The more convection inside the fermenter, the thinner the boundary layer will be, and the steeper the temperature the gradient across the boundary layer will be.

There is also a temperature gradient across the wall of the fermenter. With the temp sensor on the outside of the fermenter, the best you can do is measure the temp at the outside surface of the fermenter, which will be cooler than the inside surface. So, the beer will be warmer than the temperature you measure. The better the insulation on the outside of the temperature sensor, the lower the temp gradient across the fermenter wall will be, and the closer the measured temp will be to the beer temp. In the limiting case of "perfect" insulation of the temp sensor, the measurement would be equivalent to having the temp sensor in a thermowell in the beer inside the fermenter.

What people have found is that fermenters with thermowells have larger under (and over) shoots in temperature, than fermenters with somewhat insulated temp sensors on the outside wall of the fermenter. The reason for this it that with the thermowell, or too much insulation, the temperature of the chamber undershoots the set point more, so that when the compressor turns off, the chamber is even colder so the beer looses even more heat as the beer and chamber come into equilibrium. So, you really don't want to over insulate your taped on thermometer.

The above applies to heating as well, just with everything in the opposite direction.

The under/over shoot is an inherent characteristic of simple on-off controllers. To avoid over/under shoot, you need to use a controller with predictive capability, the classic example being a PID controller. With modern control algorithms and small, cheap computers, it is possible to create controllers that achieve even tighter control than PID's.

Brew on :mug:
 
TIL! I've read multiple times that the wort has a pretty homogenous temperature throughout, but that was some solid info. Cheers!

The only thing I'm still unsure about is I know I've read or heard experiments comparing the inside fermentation temperature with the outside of a fermenter and they were found to be almost identical, maybe 1 degree difference. I wish I could find the podcast I'm talking about but I don't remember where it was, just that it was either Jamil or Palmer talking about it.
 
Interesting read. I'm setting up my fermtroller controlled 2 zone chamber now. I'm not sure if the averaging works the same as the brewtroller code for the mash (I have 3 probes that get averaged to measure mash temp) but this has me thinking I need a probe for the thermowell and one for the chamber to limit over and under shooting temps.
 
Interesting read. I'm setting up my fermtroller controlled 2 zone chamber now. I'm not sure if the averaging works the same as the brewtroller code for the mash (I have 3 probes that get averaged to measure mash temp) but this has me thinking I need a probe for the thermowell and one for the chamber to limit over and under shooting temps.

Yeah, a separate probe for the chamber, in addition to the beer, can greatly help limit under/over shoot by limiting the temp delta between the chamber and the beer. Versions 1.06, and later, of the STC-1000+ code allow for two temp probes just for this purpose. The BrewPi fermentation controller takes this even further by using two temp probes and adaptive control algorithms to get amazing low levels of temp variation within the beer itself.

Brew on :mug:
 
TIL! I've read multiple times that the wort has a pretty homogenous temperature throughout, but that was some solid info. Cheers!

The only thing I'm still unsure about is I know I've read or heard experiments comparing the inside fermentation temperature with the outside of a fermenter and they were found to be almost identical, maybe 1 degree difference. I wish I could find the podcast I'm talking about but I don't remember where it was, just that it was either Jamil or Palmer talking about it.

Yep, the temperature gradients between the beer and the outer wall can be quite small. But, they must exist in order for any heat flow to occur. The largest thermal resistance is between the outside of the fermenter and the air in the ferm chamber, so that's where the the largest thermal gradient exists.

Brew on :mug:
 
I did 'speriment once. I dropped a waterproofed temp probe into the beer through the airlock hole and compared it to the temp read on the probe taped to the side of the fermenter. The fermenter temp was 3 degrees higher. When I reported my result to this forum I was flamed for not calibrating the thermometers against each other first. ;)
 
Back
Top