Fermenting Cider with Preservatives

[wreckinball9]

I know most people say you cant ferment cider that has potassium sorbate in it, as it will inhibit yeast reproduction. However, I'm sick of paying $6.50/ gallon and driving to the orchard to get fresh unpreserved cider, not to mention being limited to only getting it a few months of the year.

So i decided to give the cider at the local grocery store a try, ever though it has potassium sorbate. Its only $4/ gallon and available all year here, and is still made locally within New England.

I had a previous batch of hard cider going with wyeast sweet mead yeast 4184, so i racked it off the cake, and added the new store bought cider. Within 24 hours it is cranking! im getting a bubble every one or two seconds in the airlock. im not sure if it will ferment out all the way, since the yeast may not be able to reproduce, but using the yeast cake this way gives you WAY more yeast than a new pack, so hopefully it will get down to 1.010 or so which is ideal for me.

ill keep the thread updated with results, but for now I wanted to share my experiment's apparent success.

 

[ldgenius2000]

Wow that is actually pretty exciting, I agree about not wanting to pay the crazy prices for the completely fresh stuff. A quick question though, some people have said that one method of neutralizing the preservatives was to boil the cider before adding to the yeast. I was wondering if you had done this?

 

[wreckinball9]

nope. I just let it get up to room temp and dumped it out onto the yeast cake. i did add some yeast nutrient, but did nothing about the preservatives.

 

[Killer_Robot]

I did this with a good sized starter of Lalvin 1118 anand it worked just fine, fermenting down to 0.996 or so. Only one issue I had was that when I let it settle clear then primed and bottled it didn't carb up. I suspect there was too little viable yeast left in it by then to overcome the preservatives, so I'd suggest adding a little fresh yeast with the priming sugar unless you want still cider.

 

[wreckinball9]

thats awesome news. i planned on force carbing anyway. thanks for the heads up. im psyched about this whole thing

 

[jcobbs]

Somewhere on this website there is a thread with comments to the effect that sorbate doesn't sterilize, it merely inhibits yeast, and a pitch of fresh healthy yeast can overwhelm the sorbate. If you think about it, sorbate is used after fermentation, to keep those few remaining yeast cells from kicking up again. So it kind of stands to reason that you could pitch a good strong starter and overcome the sorbate in a bottle of juice. I don't know if I'd want to risk it with a pricey yeast or not, though, but I guess if I were going to make a "fancy" batch I wouldn't worry about the price of the juice either.

 

[opzo]

This is good news ... but holy $H!T $6.50 a gallon..!! I get my fresh pressed un-preserved cider for $2 a gallon when the do the pressing. They are happy enough to sell it to me like that since they don't have to bottle it. It goes straight into my 7.5 gal primary and they can also cut out the middle man (grocery store). I just can't see that much price delta from NY Hudson Valley to NH. That orchard is really taking people to town unless they are giving you the best cider apples money can buy ... which I seriously doubt.

 

[wreckinball9]

yeah i agree $6+ per gallon is a lot. i probably should investigate buying in bulk a little more, so far i have always purchased the one gallon jugs. even so, from what most say on HBT it seems $5-6/gallon is pretty common. $2 is a steal. you should do a huge batch in one of the empty 50 gallon juice drums that agriculture stores sometimes sell!

 

[CvilleKevin]

Last summer when I ran out of cider I fermented 3 gallons of Ziegler juice, which is supposedly fresh, but contains potassium sorbate. I used S04, US05 and Nottingham yeast. They all fermented out, but tasted like crap. The nottingham tasted the best, until it got down to about 1.012. I like the Ziegler juice fresh, but once the sugar was gone, there was no other flavor left.

$2/gal is pretty good. That was the standard bulk rate in Central Virginia until a few years ago when all the presses were required to add pasteurization equipment. Now there are several presses that sell juice from good cider apples for under $3/gal in quantity (30 gal or more). There is also a press that will press whatever custom blend you want for $7/gal.

The problem with 30 and 50 gal juice drums is that unless you are a body builder, you need a forklift to move them around. A gallon of juice is 8 lbs.

 

[wreckinball9]

Last summer when I ran out of cider I fermented 3 gallons of Ziegler juice, which is supposedly fresh, but contains potassium sorbate. I used S04, US05 and Nottingham yeast. They all fermented out, but tasted like crap. The nottingham tasted the best, until it got down to about 1.012. I like the Ziegler juice fresh, but once the sugar was gone, there was no other flavor left.
QUOTE]

thats a bummer; now im not so optomistic.

Kevin, do you think the crappy tast was from a low quality blend of apples, or the potassium sorbate?

 

[CvilleKevin]

I think the crappy taste was because of low quality apples in the juice. Also because it was summer and the juice was fermenting so fast. For some reason, the Notty went slower than the S04 and US05, which probably accounted for a little more residual taste. At day 7 it was still at 1.012 and a little too sweet. But a day later it was at 1.002 and tasted like dishwater. You may have better results with your juice. I also tried some Orchard Valley juice from Whole Foods, which doesnt have k-sorbate. That came out a little better, but still not nearly as good as using good cider apples.

 

[wreckinball9]

well after only a few days the sg is 1.010, which is where i wanted it to finish, although it was still fermenting hard. i have racked a couple times and been trying to cold crash as well as stabilize with campden and potassium sorbate.

the problem is, THIS THING STINKS!!!! i guess i would classify the smell as sulfur-like, so I'm guessing I have a h2s problem. at first it was just a rotten egg smell from the airlock, but during racking etc it was obvious that the actual cider itself stinks wicked bad.

from what I've read it could have been a couple diff problems. EXPERTS PLEASE CHIME IN!!!:
- the preservatives already in the cider can be turned into h2s during fermentation for whatever reason?
- there was too much yeast and they didnt reproduce effecting nitrogen levels?
- lack of amino acids in the must?

someone please help. am I smelling H2S? if so, is there anything else I can do besides racking a few times?

 

[CvilleKevin]

Yeast put out sulfur when they're stressed. My guess is that the wyeast 4184 doesnt like fermenting in the k-sorbate. If it was fermenting hard when you cold crashed, its not likely to be a nutrient problem.

I've had a few batches pick up a sulfur smell - nothing that was really stinky but enough to notice it before taking a drink. It usually subsides after a few months in a keg. If you are really in a rush, you can scrub the cider with CO2 by charging the keg until the cider absorbs 25psi and then let the pressure off until it goes flat. The CO2 will take sulfur smell with it as it escapes. I generally try to stay away from k-meta and k-sorbate. It messes with the taste too much. Find a better cider mill in the fall and you wont need that stuff.

 

[wreckinball9]

thanks Kevin, I was hoping you would respond to my post.

I probably should have just cold crashed without the added preservatives since its already full of them.

I'll give it a few months in the secondary, racking a few times, and if it still stinks ill try your co2 trick. thanks.

 

[goaler29]

When your cider gets that SO2 smell all you have to do is whip it. In wine making is called degassing. if you have something that you can attach to a hand drill you can do this really easily. just whip the cider till it stops bubbling. that will release all the SO2 trapped within the CO2 bubbles.

 

[Big "A"]

Glad I found this thread...
I have brewed 5 or six maybe more batches of cider and all with Murrays Apple Juice. I jumped on this other Cider made partly with Honey Crisp apples. Jumped the gun bought it pitched and as I was throwing the bottles away checked the label !!!! Preservatives.

It has been fermenting but ever so slowly. I have added some yeast nutrient just a few minutes ago. The air lock activity has already increased I will pitch some more yeast tomorrow in an effort to save my "Precious" (Golum Voice)

I will follow the suggestion above and degass before bottling. Hope all goes well

 

[goaler29]

Glad I found this thread...
I have brewed 5 or six maybe more batches of cider and all with Murrays Apple Juice. I jumped on this other Cider made partly with Honey Crisp apples. Jumped the gun bought it pitched and as I was throwing the bottles away checked the label !!!! Preservatives.

It has been fermenting but ever so slowly. I have added some yeast nutrient just a few minutes ago. The air lock activity has already increased I will pitch some more yeast tomorrow in an effort to save my "Precious" (Golum Voice)

I will follow the suggestion above and degass before bottling. Hope all goes well

Yea, Mine went very slowly as well. I degassed it several times. I wound up using 6 packs of champagne yeast and 3 more lbs of sugar. My gravity started out at 1.040, with sugar upped it to 1.080. After that it fermented down to 1.050. I added some apple flavoring and cleared it using super clear by liquor quick. Its in a keg now. My only complaint (besides the extra long fermentation) is the tartness. Its very tart, not undrinkable tart, just not chuggable. Next time for sure ill use fresh pressed jiuce or frozen concentrate. Its just a good thing I work at Quality Wine and Ale Supply.

 

[Stocky_S]

I usually use apples from my garden and some frim next door, but am currently nearng the end of a cider made from...wait for it...tesco own apple juice from concentrate, no preservatives and weighing in at 56p per litre (£2.55 per gallon) it seemed to ferment happily and tastes ok atm.

Stocky

 

[Jkoski80]

I was curious if anyone has any advice on how to bring 5 gallons of apple juice to room temperature. I just threw 5 gallons of cold juice on top of my 1056 yeast cake 24 hours ago. Just checked the temp and it is still 50 degrees f. Is this going to ruin my brew it does have potassium sorbate but it is a large yeast cake.

 

[Maylar]

It probably won't ferment at all if it has sorbate in it. As for the temperature, the shock might have hurt the yeast - no way to know really.

 

[Jkoski80]

Woke up this morning and checked on my cider. It is active now. Slow but active. Will add a packet of safety 05 in a day or two.

 

[Jkoski80]

Cider still active and I must say that k sorbate will not affect a healthy yeast cake. I will repost after my club had a taste

 

[Transamguy77]

Not sure the s05 is necessary, I just finished a cider with 1056 from a previous batch of beer and it took it all the way down to 1.002, so I will be backsweetening this one for sure.

 

[Jkoski80]

Not sure the s05 is necessary, I just finished a cider with 1056 from a previous batch of beer and it took it all the way down to 1.002, so I will be backsweetening this one for sure.

That's good to know. My OG was 1.098 if I get to 1.002 I will need to back sweeten I don't want a dry apple wine.

 

[Jkoski80]

Transamguy how long did you primary?

 

[Transamguy77]

2 weeks

 

[Jkoski80]

What was your og?

 

[Transamguy77]

I honestly don't know, I just poured in the juice right on top of the yeast cake. I'd have to imagine in the 1.060 range.

Honestly I wasn't real concerned since I was going to backsweeten anyway.

 

[thespiff]

I'm surprised to see early in this thread people complaining about sulfur smells and being told to "degass". The "rhino farts" are just part of the normal cider fermenting experience and all of that sulfur will offgas on its own if you just wait patiently. In my experience cider just requires some patience. After a couple weeks in primary and a month in secondary the cider will fall clear if you've used a high flocculating yeast and then you bottle and it's tasty.

Also, cider is gonna ferment down to 1.002 or less 100% of the time unless there is something wrong with your yeast or you do something to kill/inhibit the yeast when the desired gravity is reached. Unlike beer, cider has only simple sugars so it is 100% fermentable.