Fermented garlic in honey?

[OpenSights]

I’m not sure if this fits here, if not please move!

Wife came across an article on Pinterest that caught my eye, garlic fermented honey. Reading the recipe made me wonder of where they expect the yeast to come from, and I’m assuming they are counting on wild yeast... honey can be preserved for thousands of years without fermenting. Or am I missing something?

https://www.growforagecookferment.com/fermented-honey-garlic/

 

[renrutle]

The article contains this admonition.

"It’s important to use raw honey for this, as it will still have all the bacteria and wild yeast that is necessary for fermentation."​

I guess pasteurized honey is out. I'm not sure if my LHBS carries raw honey but there are some farmer's markets and pick-ups parked on the roadside in my area that do have raw honey.

Seems like it would produce a wild-funky-lacto flavor. Sounds interesting. I might try it.

 

[OpenSights]

I have about 3.5 gallons of raw unfiltered honey to use up.

I’ll give it a shot.

 

[bob1852]

Normal honey has a moisture content that isn't conducive for fermentation, but the wild yeasts are still there.

The liquid released from the garlic is apparently enough to raise the moisture content to a level suitable for fermentation.

 

[renrutle]

Normal honey has a moisture content that isn't conducive for fermentation, but the wild yeasts are still there.

The liquid released from the garlic is apparently enough to raise the moisture content to a level suitable for fermentation.

As you said honey does not ferment on its own because there is not enough water present. But once the water content gets greater that about 20-25% it will begin to ferment on its own. Honey averages ~17% water by weight and should be less than 20% water by weight to prevent fermentation.

1 cup of honey weighs about 12oz meaning that there is 12oz * 17% = 2.04 oz water; leaving 9.96 oz of other stuff. For 20% water we need to add (9.96 oz / 80%) - 12 oz = 0.45 oz water. To get to 25% water we need to add (9.96 oz / 75%) - 12 oz = 1.28 oz water.

1 tablespoon of water weighs 0.5 oz. So adding 2.5 tablespoons (1.25 oz) to a cup of honey should dilute it enough for fermentation to start.

It does not seem to me that there is enough water in the garlic to allow for fermentation either. If you are concerned you could add a tablespoon or two of water per cup of honey to be on the safe side.

It could be that as water seeps out of the garlic the honey in the immediate area around the cloves is diluted enough to start the process.

 

[bernardsmith]

Interesting.. very interesting though I am a wee bit skeptical of the claim that honey and or garlic boosts your immune system,. the idea that you need so very little liquid to jump start the indigenous fermentation in honey sorta kinda resonates with the idea that there is a Polish mead whose starting gravity is way out in the stratosphere.

 

[Miraculix]

I know this recipe from a German site, if you can, use some dark forest honey.

Also be sure to turn the glass upside down and back after a while, or to use a weight to keep the garlic from floating. Exposed garlic is prone to mold. You want it all underneath the honey at best.

 

[bernardsmith]

You could perhaps put some kind of "follower" (a roundel of plastic ?) on top of the honey and press the follower down with a smaller jar to ensure that the garlic never rises above the honey

 

[Miraculix]

Btw. This works also with blueberries

 

[OpenSights]

I know this recipe from a German site, if you can, use some dark forest honey.

Also be sure to turn the glass upside down and back after a while, or to use a weight to keep the garlic from floating. Exposed garlic is prone to mold. You want it all underneath the honey at best.

I just read something similar in a group on Facebook, but about kettle souring. This might be a stupid question, but let’s say I use a mason jar, drill a hole for a bung and airlock and purge the jar with co2... would that help prevent mold?

I’ve been speed reading through fermented food recipes and peoples’ situations, and mold is a big concern. Coming from a brewing background I’m not sure if the same rules apply.

 

[OpenSights]

As you said honey does not ferment on its own because there is not enough water present. But once the water content gets greater that about 20-25% it will begin to ferment on its own. Honey averages ~17% water by weight and should be less than 20% water by weight to prevent fermentation.

1 cup of honey weighs about 12oz meaning that there is 12oz * 17% = 2.04 oz water; leaving 9.96 oz of other stuff. For 20% water we need to add (9.96 oz / 80%) - 12 oz = 0.45 oz water. To get to 25% water we need to add (9.96 oz / 75%) - 12 oz = 1.28 oz water.

1 tablespoon of water weighs 0.5 oz. So adding 2.5 tablespoons (1.25 oz) to a cup of honey should dilute it enough for fermentation to start.

It does not seem to me that there is enough water in the garlic to allow for fermentation either. If you are concerned you could add a tablespoon or two of water per cup of honey to be on the safe side.

It could be that as water seeps out of the garlic the honey in the immediate area around the cloves is diluted enough to start the process.

I assume distilled or RO is a better choice than tap water?

I’m thinking of trying a few different small batches, garlic, blueberries and next year’s raspberries.

 

[renrutle]

Also be sure to turn the glass upside down and back after a while, or to use a weight to keep the garlic from floating. Exposed garlic is prone to mold. You want it all underneath the honey at best.

You could perhaps put some kind of "follower" (a roundel of plastic ?) on top of the honey and press the follower down with a smaller jar to ensure that the garlic never rises above the honey

From what little experience I have I do know it is important to keep all the vegetables, etc. submerged. Mold seems to grow on the the exposed/non-submerged parts. It only takes a few days for a noticeable colony to form.

 

[OpenSights]

From what little experience I have I do know it is important to keep all the vegetables, etc. submerged. Mold seems to grow on the the exposed/non-submerged parts. It only takes a few days for a noticeable colony to form.

Hmmmm.... well if a beer can become infected even with the fermentor sealed and just co2 in there....

Might have to do some more reading before I start fermenting food.

 

[bernardsmith]

Infection is a relative term. Grain (so beer) is very susceptible to lactobacterial infection and lactic bacteria will compete with the yeast for the sugars in the grain and will produce lactic acids which will make your beer sour. There are also other bacteria and molds that love grain and are in the air and because your beer is at a relatively high pH (around 5.2) your wort and beer are party houses. Honey is not as inviting and it is not entirely obvious (to me, at least) that this fermentation is about mead making as much as it may be about the use of lacto-bacteria to ferment the honey. I am thinking that what the garlic bring to the table are these bacteria and so you are creating a lactic fermentation - in much the same way you might pickle cucumbers or cabbage by adding enough brine to prevent any mold or spoilage bacteria from thriving but which encourages lactic bacteria on the vegetables to multiply. I am thinking that the bacteria on the garlic multiply in the presence of honey at a concentration that inhibits or restricts other mold and other unpleasant bacteria that would otherwise "spoil" the honey in ways you and I would not like. The lacto-spoilage we do like almost as much as we love the way that yeast infect and spoil fruit.

Of course, I could be completely mistaken but I suspect this has nothing to do with alcoholic fermentation...

 

[renrutle]

I assume distilled or RO is a better choice than tap water?

I am on a well so I use well water. Tap water will do if there is no chlorine. Use what you use for brewing and you should be good.

Hmmmm.... well if a beer can become infected even with the fermentor sealed and just co2 in there....

Might have to do some more reading before I start fermenting food.

I won't discourage more research but suggest you maybe start with a small 1 pint batch to get first hand experience while you get more info.

I think my grocery has raw honey. I'll pick some up and post my progress and process on this recipe.

 

[renrutle]

Of course, I could be completely mistaken but I suspect this has nothing to do with alcoholic fermentation...

I'm almost positive this is mostly a lacto-frementation. There are some wild yeasts in raw honey but I guess one of us has to bite the bullet and see what happens. I think I'll get some honey and give it a go.

 

[OpenSights]

I’ll start one tomorrow. Just got back from the grocery store, forgot water! My city waster is hard and chlorinated.

Now that I think of it, I have 10 gallons of awesome well water from up north! It’s for a beer, but such a small amount won’t be missed....

 

[Miraculix]

I just read something similar in a group on Facebook, but about kettle souring. This might be a stupid question, but let’s say I use a mason jar, drill a hole for a bung and airlock and purge the jar with co2... would that help prevent mold?

I’ve been speed reading through fermented food recipes and peoples’ situations, and mold is a big concern. Coming from a brewing background I’m not sure if the same rules apply.

Just use a good pickling glasses with a tight rubber seal, there is no need for air locks. Actually, air locks create problems on its own so just stick to good glasses with rubber seal, not those silicon ones.

The company Fido does great and affordable glasses, but there are others as well.

Infection is a relative term. Grain (so beer) is very susceptible to lactobacterial infection and lactic bacteria will compete with the yeast for the sugars in the grain and will produce lactic acids which will make your beer sour. There are also other bacteria and molds that love grain and are in the air and because your beer is at a relatively high pH (around 5.2) your wort and beer are party houses. Honey is not as inviting and it is not entirely obvious (to me, at least) that this fermentation is about mead making as much as it may be about the use of lacto-bacteria to ferment the honey. I am thinking that what the garlic bring to the table are these bacteria and so you are creating a lactic fermentation - in much the same way you might pickle cucumbers or cabbage by adding enough brine to prevent any mold or spoilage bacteria from thriving but which encourages lactic bacteria on the vegetables to multiply. I am thinking that the bacteria on the garlic multiply in the presence of honey at a concentration that inhibits or restricts other mold and other unpleasant bacteria that would otherwise "spoil" the honey in ways you and I would not like. The lacto-spoilage we do like almost as much as we love the way that yeast infect and spoil fruit.

Of course, I could be completely mistaken but I suspect this has nothing to do with alcoholic fermentation...

All correct. It's at the end a huge bucket of mixed fermentation. There is a lot of lactic acid fermentation going on, wild yeasts do their alcoholic thing and everything else is also happening. The beauty of wild fermentation!

I am on a well so I use well water. Tap water will do if there is no chlorine. Use what you use for brewing and you should be good.



I won't discourage more research but suggest you maybe start with a small 1 pint batch to get first hand experience while you get more info.

I think my grocery has raw honey. I'll pick some up and post my progress and process on this recipe.

Water does not really matter as long as it is not chlorinated in any way. I would stick to well water, if I could.



One thing that was not mentioned is the salt. Don't use treated salt. Use pure rock salt, can be coloured but doesn't have to be.

This ferment takes long, it will be good after a few months but gets better with aging, according to what I have read.

 

[Oldskewl]

I saw an Instagram post a week or two ago about Honey Fermented Garlic. I was gonna post it in this thread but never got a "round tuit". LOL! It is supposed to have medicinal properties. I plan to give it a try soon.

 

[OpenSights]

One thing that was not mentioned is the salt. Don't use treated salt. Use pure rock salt, can be coloured but doesn't have to be.

Would kosher salt qualify?

 

[Miraculix]

Would kosher salt qualify?

If it is untreated with any additional chemicals, no added iodine or other stuff, probably yes. The good thing about pure rock salt is that it contains trace minerals which aid fermentation, so it would be good if you could get non treated and non purified rock salt. Sometimes also sold under fancy names like Himalayan rock salt.

 

[bernardsmith]

Kosher salt is untreated and has no iodine but the crystals are large (its original purpose was to assist in the removal blood from meat that had been slaughtered in accordance with Jewish practice. Blood is taboo and so meat though "kosher" is still unfit for consumption unless the blood has also been removed through salting the meat. There are also other ways to remove the blood (liver cannot be salted because it is too laden with blood for that method to be considered by Jewish law to be effective) The process is short so the meat is not in fact pickled and the salt and extracted blood is then removed by soaking and washing in water. More than you wanted to know but I am sure folk wonder why some salt is called "kosher salt" when all salt is "kosher".

 

[Miraculix]

Kosher salt is untreated and has no iodine but the crystals are large (its original purpose was to assist in the removal blood from meat that had been slaughtered in accordance with Jewish practice. Blood is taboo and so meat though "kosher" is still unfit for consumption unless the blood has also been removed through salting the meat. There are also other ways to remove the blood (liver cannot be salted because it is too laden with blood for that method to be considered by Jewish law to be effective) The process is short so the meat is not in fact pickled and the salt and extracted blood is then removed by soaking and washing in water. More than you wanted to know but I am sure folk wonder why some salt is called "kosher salt" when all salt is "kosher".

I actually already knew this because I googled it half a year ago. But Indeed, it was a question that popped up in my mind when I first read about the term kosher salt! In German, this term is not commonly used, so it was a bit of a surprise for me to see it and of course, sparked my interest

 

[renrutle]

I finally got around to putting this together after I found some raw honey at the grocery.

I ended up using 3 whole garlic with about 1/2# honey in a 12 oz jar. I probably could have fit a fourth garlic in the jar.

I used this method to peel the garlic.

https://www.rd.com/food/recipes-cooking/how-to-peel-garlic/











The air bubbles all came out after 15 minutes or so.

 

[Miraculix]

Nice! Just remember to turn it upside down once in a while.

 

[renrutle]

Nice! Just remember to turn it upside down once in a while.

I'll do my best. I'll send updates with pictures if I remember that also.

 

[renrutle]

They have been fermenting for just over 24 hours. I have turned the jar upside down for 30 seconds or so a few times since yesterday, Tonight I thought I would crack the lid to see if any pressure had built up. I got a small psssft and some bubbles formed in the honey. Very strong garlic smell with a hint of honey.

 

[Miraculix]

They have been fermenting for just over 24 hours. I have turned the jar upside down for 30 seconds or so a few times since yesterday, Tonight I thought I would crack the lid to see if any pressure had built up. I got a small psssft and some bubbles formed in the honey. Very strong garlic smell with a hint of honey.


View attachment 654982

Woops, you need to migrate this into a proper lactic fermentation vessel with a rubber ring. Otherwise you risk bottle bombs. The glasses from Fido are very good, but there are others as well!

 

[renrutle]

Woops, you need to migrate this into a proper lactic fermentation vessel with a rubber ring. Otherwise you risk bottle bombs. The glasses from Fido are very good, but there are others as well!

I had that concern when I chose this jar but I think the article suggests this type.

I just went back and read through it again and found this note. "Cover it loosely with a lid to let the gasses escape." I guess I should do that.

 

[bernardsmith]

I just came across a Youtube video series called It's Alive with Brad and there it offers a demo of how to make this honey -garlic fermentation. Given the amount of liquid that is is produced from the honey and given how the taste is described it does not at all sound like this is anything other than a bacterial fermentation (AKA pickling).

 

[Jayjay1976]

TBH I came here to troll, but this is a great thread and I'm learning alot. Thanks to all who have contributed. Sorry I'm a wang.

 

[Miraculix]

I had that concern when I chose this jar but I think the article suggests this type.

I just went back and read through it again and found this note. "Cover it loosely with a lid to let the gasses escape." I guess I should do that.

That's not a good solution, it allows for too much oxygen exposure, greetings from Mr. Mold. Just buy a nice glass and fill it into the new one.

 

[bernardsmith]

That's not a good solution, it allows for too much oxygen exposure, greetings from Mr. Mold. Just buy a nice glass and fill it into the new one.

But I wonder: if you are routinely inverting the jar to ensure that the garlic is always submerged then while there is exposure to O2 there is really very little opportunity for mold to build up. Is there?

 

[Miraculix]

But I wonder: if you are routinely inverting the jar to ensure that the garlic is always submerged then while there is exposure to O2 there is really very little opportunity for mold to build up. Is there?

There will be a sticky layer of liquid all over the lid and everywhere else inside. Those areas basically ask for mold if enough oxygen is present.

 

[renrutle]

That's not a good solution, it allows for too much oxygen exposure, greetings from Mr. Mold. Just buy a nice glass and fill it into the new one.

But I wonder: if you are routinely inverting the jar to ensure that the garlic is always submerged then while there is exposure to O2 there is really very little opportunity for mold to build up. Is there?

There will be a sticky layer of liquid all over the lid and everywhere else inside. Those areas basically ask for mold if enough oxygen is present.

All good observations. I thought about using a standard airlock at first but was unsure how to keep it from getting gummed up with honey when I invert the jar. Does any one have a suggestion? My initial plan was to follow the article as closely as possible and see what happens. I do know that vinters commonly open the fermenter to punch-the-cap or submerge the floating grape skins to prevent the growth of mold.

One option would be to use fermenting weights to keep the garlic submerged so the jar does not need to be inverted and an airlock can be used. I don't have any so I will continue with my current procedure with the addition of keeping it in a hopefully bottle-bomb-proof box.

I'm not recommending for or against this item; it is just the first example I found.

https://www.amazon.com/fermentation-fermenting-vegetables-Dishwasher-safe-Premium/dp/B078KDJCNG


On a procedural note I have been burping the jar a few times a day and inverting for a few seconds after doing so. I am trying to keep the lid only loosely closed. The honey is noticeably more runny. Burps still smells of lots of garlic.

 

[Tartan1]

All good observations. I thought about using a standard airlock at first but was unsure how to keep it from getting gummed up with honey when I invert the jar. Does any one have a suggestion? My initial plan was to follow the article as closely as possible and see what happens. I do know that vinters commonly open the fermenter to punch-the-cap or submerge the floating grape skins to prevent the growth of mold.

One option would be to use fermenting weights to keep the garlic submerged so the jar does not need to be inverted and an airlock can be used. I don't have any so I will continue with my current procedure with the addition of keeping it in a hopefully bottle-bomb-proof box.

I'm not recommending for or against this item; it is just the first example I found.

https://www.amazon.com/fermentation-fermenting-vegetables-Dishwasher-safe-Premium/dp/B078KDJCNG


On a procedural note I have been burping the jar a few times a day and inverting for a few seconds after doing so. I am trying to keep the lid only loosely closed. The honey is noticeably more runny. Burps still smells of lots of garlic.

I thought about using these https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Wide-Mouth-Canning-Jar-Perf-Pusher.html to make my fermented pickles. I've tried glass weights before, but found its tough keeping the pickle slices, spices, and the currant leaves submerged. The weights tend to shift as the ferment starts to develop. Not sure how imperative it is to rotate the jar with your fermented garlic, I've never tried the honey garlic ferment before but looks interesting. With these you add the airlock and the pusher screen keeps things submerged.

 

[OpenSights]

I thought about using these https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Wide-Mouth-Canning-Jar-Perf-Pusher.html to make my fermented pickles. I've tried glass weights before, but found its tough keeping the pickle slices, spices, and the currant leaves submerged. The weights tend to shift as the ferment starts to develop. Not sure how imperative it is to rotate the jar with your fermented garlic, I've never tried the honey garlic ferment before but looks interesting. With these you add the airlock and the pusher screen keeps things submerged.

Thanks for the link! I’ll have to order some of those!

That's not a good solution, it allows for too much oxygen exposure, greetings from Mr. Mold. Just buy a nice glass and fill it into the new one.

What would make a good vessel? Maybe a small crock? But then you can’t flip it... sorry other than pickles, eggs I’m not a newbie. Is flipping really needed, and if so, why?

I have a decent idea about the ins and outs of brewing, but fermenting food, no clue.

 

[renrutle]

What would make a good vessel? Maybe a small crock? But then you can’t flip it... sorry other than pickles, eggs I’m not a newbie. Is flipping really needed, and if so, why?

I have a decent idea about the ins and outs of brewing, but fermenting food, no clue.

The key is to keep the food to be fermented submerged in the brine; or in this case the honey. This helps to prevent mold from growing on the exposed vegetables. Unfortunately the garlic wants to float quite high in the honey. The initial article mentioned flipping the jar to keep everything coated in honey so I'm doing this. The devices mentioned would keep everything submerged so flipping would not be necessary.

 

[Miraculix]

All good observations. I thought about using a standard airlock at first but was unsure how to keep it from getting gummed up with honey when I invert the jar. Does any one have a suggestion? My initial plan was to follow the article as closely as possible and see what happens. I do know that vinters commonly open the fermenter to punch-the-cap or submerge the floating grape skins to prevent the growth of mold.

One option would be to use fermenting weights to keep the garlic submerged so the jar does not need to be inverted and an airlock can be used. I don't have any so I will continue with my current procedure with the addition of keeping it in a hopefully bottle-bomb-proof box.

I'm not recommending for or against this item; it is just the first example I found.

https://www.amazon.com/fermentation-fermenting-vegetables-Dishwasher-safe-Premium/dp/B078KDJCNG


On a procedural note I have been burping the jar a few times a day and inverting for a few seconds after doing so. I am trying to keep the lid only loosely closed. The honey is noticeably more runny. Burps still smells of lots of garlic.

Mate just buy a standard glass with rubber sealing and be done with it. No need to overcomplicate things. Fido is a good brand top look for.

 

[Miraculix]

I thought about using these https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Wide-Mouth-Canning-Jar-Perf-Pusher.html to make my fermented pickles. I've tried glass weights before, but found its tough keeping the pickle slices, spices, and the currant leaves submerged. The weights tend to shift as the ferment starts to develop. Not sure how imperative it is to rotate the jar with your fermented garlic, I've never tried the honey garlic ferment before but looks interesting. With these you add the airlock and the pusher screen keeps things submerged.

This is what I meant with overcomplicating. An air lock might look fancy but is not necessary. The pressure will be released along the rubber sealing, if a good glass is being used, while air is not allowed to get in.

This is fancy stuff they sell to brewers who want to have fancy stuff. Money making, but no point using it.


Something like this does the job:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bormioli-C...keywords=fido+glass+jar&qid=1575364349&sr=8-4