Ferment under pressure and bottle condition

[stefan646]

Hello guys,

I am usually making 5 gallon ale batches, I do not keg and I don't have a fermentation chamber - both are due the lack of space. I am planning to make a SS fermenter and I could ferment under pressure. My plan is to do that because (in theory) I could ferment at higher temperatures(room temperature ~25 C in the summer) that required without off flavors. This is the only reason! So my questions is: how to bottle condition a beer that had been fermenting under pressure?
1)calculate the level of the CO2 that is present in the beer and adjust the priming sugar quantity
2)after the fermentation is down, release the pressure, wait for a couples of days so that the beer loose the extra carbonation and then use the usual amount of priming sugar - if that method works, it might be the safest one
Thank you !

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Use this chart
https://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table/
to work out how much CO2 is in the beer that has been fermented under pressure (you'll need to extrapolate for temperatures over 65F, so there's a bit of guesswork). Bottle directly from the fermenting vessel adding sugar solution directly to each bottle to make up the required extra carbonation.
For example, if you ferment at 25C (77F) and 15PSI and want 2.4volumes of CO2 in your finished beer:
You have around 1.2 volumes of CO2 in the beer to be bottled (extrapolated from the chart).
You need to add a further 1.2 volumes.
Using the chart on this page https://byo.com/resource/carbonation-priming-chart/ you'd need roughly 100g of dextrose monohydrate (or 87g of table sugar) to add 1.2 volumes of CO2 to 5 gallons/19L of beer. If that's going over 25 x 750mL bottles, you'd use 4g of dextrose per bottle.
Bottling beer that already has some carbonation will foam a bit - use long, skinny tubing if you can - I bottle out of keg through 4m of 5mm (internal diameter) tube. How are you planning to get the beer out of your fermenting vessel? A bit of foaming is a good thing when bottling, because you're getting CO2 to push O2 out of the bottle!

 

[stefan646]

Bottle directly from the fermenting vessel adding sugar solution directly to each bottle to make up the required extra carbonation.

Been there, done that, never happen again ! Now I only bottle using a priming bucket.
I am planning to mount a ball valve to transfer the beer from the fermenting vessel to the priming bucket.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Been there, done that, never happen again ! Now I only bottle using a priming bucket.

Would you like to elaborate? I do all my bottling this way - it's simple, takes less time than bulk priming, is more consistent and has less chance of oxidation. What's not to like?

I am planning to mount a ball valve to transfer the beer from the fermenting vessel to the priming bucket.

A ball valve would certainly make things easier. Be careful that it can handle the pressure you plan to ferment at. A lot of so called 'pressure' ferment vessels only handle up to 10 or 15psi, because of the difficulty in sealing add-ons like ball valves.

 

[stefan646]

Would you like to elaborate? I do all my bottling this way - it's simple, takes less time than bulk priming, is more consistent and has less chance of oxidation. What's not to like?

Could you please like to elaborate? How could adding separate sugar in to each bottle could result in more consistent carbonation than bulk priming, and also be faster?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Could you please like to elaborate? How could adding separate sugar in to each bottle could result in more consistent carbonation than bulk priming, and also be faster?

More consistent because each bottle is getting the same dosage. With bulk priming, if the sugar isn't fully mixed in, some bottles end up over carbonated, and some under carbonated. Some brewers get better results than others with the method.
Faster (by a small amount) because once the sugar solution is made up and the bottles are ready (same amount of time for both methods), the solution is quickly syringed in to each bottle rather than needing to sanitise a bottling bucked and transfer the beer to it. It takes a few minutes to prime all of the bottles, and then there's also no bottling bucket to was up at the end!
What didn't you like about individual bottle priming?

 

[shortyz]

guessing the co2 value going into the bottle and adding extra sugar sounds like a dangerous endeavor.

trial and error and lots of notes, and hope one doesnt blow up in your hand. good luck!

 

[Gnomebrewer]

guessing the co2 value going into the bottle and adding extra sugar sounds like a dangerous endeavor.

trial and error and lots of notes, and hope one doesnt blow up in your hand. good luck!

Firstly, nobody talked about guessing the CO2 value (extrapolation requires a bit of an estimate if the ferment is really warm, but it'll be within an acceptable range and can actually be determined more accurately using a maths function). It's estimated (quite accurately) from a chart, in THE SAME WAY it's done for non-pressure ferments (there is always some CO2 to be accounted for in beer that's being bottled, which is dependent on ferment temperature - calculators take this CO2 into account).
Secondly, even if you added a full dose of priming sugar to a beer that was already half carbonated, you wouldn't get bottle bombs - they'd only become gushers/hard to pour (unless your bottles are really thin). Bottle bombs come from bottling beer that hasn't finished fermenting (or from contamination) - it only takes a few points of unfinished sugars.

 

[shortyz]

wait so your saying bottle bombs are not caused by to much priming sugar?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

It would have to be a lot too much priming sugar to cause a bottle bomb.

A standard batch (5 gallons) of ale would use about 100g of priming sugar to get to 2.2 volumes.
Let's say you accidentally doubled that. That gets you to about 3.5 volumes, which is typically about where you'd want a hefeweizen. I do my hefe's to 3.8 volumes and have never had a bottle bomb. I guess really thin bottles might be different.
Or maybe you put that 100g of sugar in, but messed up the volume and only had 4 gallons. That gets you to 2.5 volumes - still well within an acceptable range and not bottle bomb territory.

Now if you bulk prime and don't get enough mixing, a bottle could get way more than double the intended dose. That could cause a bottle bomb. Guessing the sugar could cause a bottle bomb. But mostly, bottling before beer it's fully attenuated will cause bottle bombs.

 

[stefan646]

More consistent because each bottle is getting the same dosage. With bulk priming, if the sugar isn't fully mixed in, some bottles end up over carbonated, and some under carbonated. Some brewers get better results than others with the method.
Faster (by a small amount) because once the sugar solution is made up and the bottles are ready (same amount of time for both methods), the solution is quickly syringed in to each bottle rather than needing to sanitise a bottling bucked and transfer the beer to it. It takes a few minutes to prime all of the bottles, and then there's also no bottling bucket to was up at the end!
What didn't you like about individual bottle priming?

I use plain sugar in each bottle the first time and it was a mess. Then I use bulk priming in a bucket and never had problem with consistently. When transferring from the fermenter to the bottling bucket the siphoning is causing a continuous whirlpool so the sugar is mixed well. + there is the diffusion effect that helps. Yesterday I bottle my first NEIPA directly from the fermenter to avoid oxidation. I use the syringed method. The downsides that I observed was:
- it was a pain to carefully look at the syringe each time to get exactly 5ml - maybe you can use a smaller syringe and suck it full
-you could easily forget to fill a bottle or fill it twice
-if you are not careful and overfill a bottle, then you loose beer with priming sugar in it
-in the case of my NEIPA the consistently problem I can't discuss because I have to first drink all the bottles
-when filling larger quantities , 40+ bottles, the chances to screw a bottle because of the above reasons, increase

guessing the co2 value going into the bottle and adding extra sugar sounds like a dangerous endeavor.

trial and error and lots of notes, and hope one doesnt blow up in your hand. good luck!

That is what I was also thinking, that's why I posted the second options: to release the pressure(to atmospheric pressure), and let the beer to became carbonated as a normal beer. Is that gonna happen?

 

[NeverDie]

Hello guys,

I am usually making 5 gallon ale batches, I do not keg and I don't have a fermentation chamber - both are due the lack of space. I am planning to make a SS fermenter and I could ferment under pressure. My plan is to do that because (in theory) I could ferment at higher temperatures(room temperature ~25 C in the summer) that required without off flavors. This is the only reason! So my questions is: how to bottle condition a beer that had been fermenting under pressure?
1)calculate the level of the CO2 that is present in the beer and adjust the priming sugar quantity
2)after the fermentation is down, release the pressure, wait for a couples of days so that the beer loose the extra carbonation and then use the usual amount of priming sugar - if that method works, it might be the safest one
Thank you !

Are you saying that fermenting under pressure allows you to ferment at higher temperatures without producing off flavors? If that's the case, then I'm very interested!

 

[stefan646]

Are you saying that fermenting under pressure allows you to ferment at higher temperatures without producing off flavors? If that's the case, then I'm very interested!

Yes, it is used especially on lagers, but I am thinking it could be working on ales as well.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I use plain sugar in each bottle the first time and it was a mess.

Yeah, it doesn't really work. Sugar solution works much better.

Yesterday I bottle my first NEIPA directly from the fermenter to avoid oxidation. I use the syringed method. The downsides that I observed was:
- it was a pain to carefully look at the syringe each time to get exactly 5ml - maybe you can use a smaller syringe and suck it full
-you could easily forget to fill a bottle or fill it twice

If you get used to a system, you won't fill a bottle twice. I use a 60mL syringe and use 10mL per bottle, so I just do 6 bottles at a time. I line them up, fill the syringe with 60mL, squirt 10mL into each bottle then fill and cap 6 bottles. If you primed all of your bottles first, then filled them, there would be more of a risk of double-sugaring. 60mL syringes (the big ones) are quite easy to use with one hand and are quick and easy to accurately use.

-if you are not careful and overfill a bottle, then you loose beer with priming sugar in it

Yes. You do with bulk priming as well. It's only going to be a dribble though. Unless you're drinking and bottling!

-when filling larger quantities , 40+ bottles, the chances to screw a bottle because of the above reasons, increase

Yep. Stick to a few (I do 6) at a time.

That is what I was also thinking, that's why I posted the second options: to release the pressure(to atmospheric pressure), and let the beer to became carbonated as a normal beer. Is that gonna happen?

The problem with de-carbonating is that you don't know how much CO2 is left after decarbonating. There is always some, and it has to be accounted for when bottling. Much better to leave it in there and account for it when you bottle. You can bulk prime with the partly carbonated beer - you don't have to do it my way and bottle directly. It'll actually give you some protection against oxidation because CO2 coming out of solution will prevent some of the O2 getting in. You might want to bump your sugar up by 5 to 10% of what you calculate to account for CO2 lost in the bottling bucket though. As I've said many times in earlier posts, that amount of extra priming sugar won't put you at risk of bottle bombs.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Are you saying that fermenting under pressure allows you to ferment at higher temperatures without producing off flavors? If that's the case, then I'm very interested!

Yes. I can't find the study at the moment, but one I read recently showed less than half the Isoamyl acetate (banana) and Ethyl acetate (nail polish remover) in beer fermented warm under pressure vs. the same beer warm fermented not under pressure. Most home brewers using this method are fermenting in corny kegs with spunding valves attached.

 

[Rye1]

Use this chart
Force Carbonation Chart - Kegerators.com
to work out how much CO2 is in the beer that has been fermented under pressure (you'll need to extrapolate for temperatures over 65F, so there's a bit of guesswork). Bottle directly from the fermenting vessel adding sugar solution directly to each bottle to make up the required extra carbonation.
For example, if you ferment at 25C (77F) and 15PSI and want 2.4volumes of CO2 in your finished beer:
You have around 1.2 volumes of CO2 in the beer to be bottled (extrapolated from the chart).
You need to add a further 1.2 volumes.
Using the chart on this page Carbonation Priming Chart - Brew Your Own you'd need roughly 100g of dextrose monohydrate (or 87g of table sugar) to add 1.2 volumes of CO2 to 5 gallons/19L of beer. If that's going over 25 x 750mL bottles, you'd use 4g of dextrose per bottle.
Bottling beer that already has some carbonation will foam a bit - use long, skinny tubing if you can - I bottle out of keg through 4m of 5mm (internal diameter) tube. How are you planning to get the beer out of your fermenting vessel? A bit of foaming is a good thing when bottling, because you're getting CO2 to push O2 out of the bottle!

I'm slightly strugging to fully grasp this. I'm doing my first ever pressure brew (only my second full grain/BIAB!) and am on day #2. The initial yeast 'storm' seems to have settled now and I plan to raise temperature from 23c to say 25-26c. My primary aim is to be able to complete a brew/fermentation and bottle in under 10 days from beginning to end. Shorter if possible!

I'll be hoping to bottle with a 'beer gun' direct from a Fermzilla so am naturally looking at whether to add any priming sugar, and how much, so here I am.

I sort of 'get' the extrapolation for the residual CO2 chart (though the colour coding is confusing me as I probably want around 2.4 CO2 asit's a 6.5% New England IPA kit). The 'green' figures don't quite 'extrapolate', but I'll let that pass for now.

So, if the sums add up, to acheive 2.4 CO2 for 19L we calculate 87g of table sugar (the 'sucrose' in table C3). Now, previously (no pressure used and syrup kits and my only other full grain brew), I've batch primed and for around 40x 500ml bottles allowed 1/2 teaspoon of sugar per bottle. 1/2 teaspoon (2.1g) x 40 bottles comes to 84g. This figure seems very close to the 87g for 19L (38x bottles)?

I'd also be curious as to how you make up your sugar 'solution' for adding to each bottle. Do you sanitise say a glass or cup, add a pre weighed amount of sugar to a previously boiled and measured amount of water, or do you make up an excess quantity of a 'ratio' of sugar/water and simply syringe up enough for each bottle? What sort of millilitres per 'drop'?

Many thanks for any more insights - this first pressure ferment is quite nervy for me, I'm kind if 'winging it' with the kit instructions, and hoping to add some dry hops in a couple of days (after 2-3 days of raised temp to 25c followed by a 'soft crash' to 15c)..

 

[DuncB]

You're in at the deep end here.

I have spunded a Belgian golden strong in my conical and then used a counter pressure bottle filler with priming sugar and fresh yeast into champagne bottles.
I use this bottle filler which means no foaming.
https://williamswarn.co.nz/products/brewbottler-gen2
Regarding the true carbonation use this calculator from @doug293cz



Then use the calculator from @doug293cz to work out your priming sugar needed

I work out my priming sugar quantity and dissolve it in boiled water, let it cool and dose each bottle. If you are adding extra yeast you can dissolve it in the sugar water mix.

 

[Rye1]

"You're in at the deep end here."...

Thanks for reminding me. And yes, I am quite nervous as I have to have this all bottled before I leave at the end of next week. My emergency exit is that if the bottle filling direct from the Fermzilla goes wrong (blockages, foam etc.) I will decant into a regular bucket/tap setup and fill via old fashioned gravity and tube with a batch carbonation. It's the speed of fermantation I need as I visit here (Norway) usually for only 8-12 days at a time and need to get a batch ready for my next visit(s). Here I have the space and equipment, and as (good/any) beer here is crazy expensive to buy, this is the way to go! Like I said, this is my first pressure ferment (and only second all grain).

Thanks for the charts - I really need to crunch my head around them. My current batch is a 23L working volume in a 27L Fermzilla at 15psi. I did 48 hrs at 23c (max for the yeast used) and went from 1060 to 1022. I've now done another 24 hrs at 25c (so 72 total) and will check reading this afternoon. I'm wondering when to add the final 370g of dry hops - the kit instructions (Amundsen Brewery) say in the 'Pro Tips' "... for those who have equipment for dry hopping in a closed system where you can clean/blow out oxygen with CO2, you can also try adding dry hops after fermentation - soft crash to 15c, wait 'til the yeast has flocculated and remove yeast. Add dry hops. Here we look forreduced contact time with hops. Taste until you get the taste you want for about 2-3 days, and then cold crash...." I think there's a bit of technique trasnslation needed going from 'regular' boil & fermentation to using pressure, so I'm definitely 'winging it here'! I think I will wait until I get nearer the 1010 before hopping. And by 'removing the yeast', I'm guessing I'll open the lower 1L chamber and let what trub I can settle there and close it off again. Dunno.

So, as you can see, getting your chart(s) to fit around this is head scratching for a newbie like me.. (?)

I'm 'hoping' to bottle using a Kegland Bottle filler (see photo) from a cold Fermzilla (2c hopefully) using sugar drops as per as yet to be calculated sugar amount (?). If this all goes horribly wrong on the day, am I right to try to simply decant to a regular bucket/tap setup, then batch carbonate as per 'normal' fermentation quantity (assuming all the carbonation from the pressure ferment will have disappeared?).. Or am I wildly guessing!

I'll appreciate any hand holding at the moment as this is hugely new territory for me. I don't mind getting it a bit wrong here and there so long as I learn along the way).. And maybe one day I can pass on my own experiences and help other..

 

[Broken Crow]

And by 'removing the yeast', I'm guessing I'll open the lower 1L chamber and let what trub I can settle there and close it off again. Dunno.

Not to do with the carbonation, but unless you've found some easy way to purge the oxygen from your collection container, opening the valve now rather than starting with it open, is going to bubble a lot of air right up through your beer.

 

[Rye1]

@Broken Crow

OK, many thanks for that.

So, more learning here. To get the best going forward, maybe not open the collection container at all, and simply add the dry hops anyway and hope all the trub settles enough to at least give me a decent usable amount of liquid to bottle? (rather than bubble the empty chamber through the ferment).

My hoping was going to be done simply through opening the lid (after dropping pressure) and throwing it in..

Yes, 'in the deep end' here...

 

[DuncB]

If you throw hops into beer you've dropped pressure enough to get lid off you will get a lot of foam. You will need to check hops in, get lid on fast and re pressure with CO2. Otherwise you'll be capping a volcano.
Given your time pressure I'd put the hops in before the end of ferment. Drop the pressure to a few psi and bottle with carbonation sugar as needed.
Or just add hops, turn spund pressure up and then drink from fermenter and or package when you return.

 

[Rye1]

OK, thanks (as ever).. Bed time here

If you throw hops into beer you've dropped pressure enough to get lid off you will get a lot of foam. You will need to check hops in, get lid on fast and re pressure with CO2. Otherwise you'll be capping a volcano.
Given your time pressure I'd put the hops in before the end of ferment. Drop the pressure to a few psi and bottle with carbonation sugar as needed.
Or just add hops, turn spund pressure up and then drink from fermenter and or package when you return.

OK, many thanks again for this..

Bed time here now (late), so lots to sleep on. I'd never have thought of leaving the whole brew (with hops in?) in the fermenter for 2 months until I return (and bottle then).

Much to process overnight..

... deep end...

 

[Rye1]

If you throw hops into beer you've dropped pressure enough to get lid off you will get a lot of foam. You will need to check hops in, get lid on fast and re pressure with CO2. Otherwise you'll be capping a volcano.
Given your time pressure I'd put the hops in before the end of ferment. Drop the pressure to a few psi and bottle with carbonation sugar as needed.
Or just add hops, turn spund pressure up and then drink from fermenter and or package when you return.

Thanks again.. One quick question, if I struggle to get full fermentation before I have to bottle/leave (in 4 days), can I simply leave the Fermzilla in the fridge for 2 months (cold?) Spund setting? Won't it 'over hop' (I just hopped today) now running at 25c (77F) and down to 0.8 psi..

So far: OG 1061, 48 hrs 1022, 96 hrs 1020. Target is 1014.

If I only hit say 1016 on Thrusday will I be foolish to cold crash and bottle anyway?

Sorry for the newbie questions..

 

[DuncB]

Not sure I could get my spend to work at 0.8 psi.
If not fully completed and you bottle, don't add any priming sugar.

 

[Rye1]

Not sure I could get my spend to work at 0.8 psi.
If not fully completed and you bottle, don't add any priming sugar.

... sorry, typo! 0.8 bar (approx 11 psi)

Thanks for the tip regards priming