Feedback on the SMASH I would like to try

[Dutch_Brewer]

I purchases ingredients and other stuff to start my home brewing career. Now I like to start with a simple recipe (after I did 2 of the brooklyn brewery kits).

Now after reading some recipes and reading the comments from others I want to try this recipe. Can I have some feedback on this. I will be brewing in a bag.

 

[xpops]

Looks good. A lot of people will boil Pils for 90 mins to help avoid DMS, but the verdict is out on whether it's true or not...but just something to think about/look into.

Welcome to the beginnings of a new obsession!

cheers,

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

Oké i will be going for a 90 minute boil then.

 

[seatazzz]

You won't go wrong with Mosaic. It's a great all-around hop for both bittering and flavor/aroma. My best IPA is a SMaSH with 2 row & Mosaic. I too doubt the Pilsner/DMS quandary, it may have been an issue back before modified malts but I don't really think it is anymore. Keep in mind, if you're set on a 90 minute boil, to adjust your strike/sparge volume accordingly to hit your target original gravity/fermenter volume.

 

[mbobhat]

I think maybe with all Pils you may want to mash on low side, like maybe do a beta rest then bring it up to 150 to finish it off so that it isn't too sweet?

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

What does that mean a "beta rest".

What would be the preferable mash schedule for this kind of malt?

 

[thehaze]

The Pilsner wont be sweet if only doing a single infusion. I use Pilsner as base for all my brews, including smash beers.

I do however boil for 90 minutes. I guess out of habit, but also as there is no real evidence to whether you actually need to only boil for 60 minutes to chase off the DMS.

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

The Pilsner wont be sweet if only doing a single infusion. I use Pilsner as base for all my brews, including smash beers.

I do however boil for 90 minutes. I guess out of habit, but also as there is no real evidence to whether you actually need to only boil for 60 minutes to chase off the DMS.

So I will need to have the mash @ 150 f for the entire duration of the mash? And it won't turn out to be to sweet?

 

[thehaze]

So I will need to have the mash @ 150 f for the entire duration of the mash? And it won't turn out to be to sweet?

The perception of " sweetness " is relative and it is different from individual to individual.

I have brewed beers with only Pilsner malt and a buttload of hops and never tasted/sensed something even remotely sweet or close to whatever sweetness you think about.

Pilsner malt, if perceived sweet by some, is not " sweet " like sugar or crystal/caramel malt.

But if you do not know IF and HOW you like a certain (base) malt, I believe you have to make a few trial batches, to get to know your " taste ".

Seeing you are brewing a low-ish ABV beer, maybe a higher mash temp. will work better, in regards of beer body and dryness vs. alcohol content.

 

[McKnuckle]

Feedback:

All things being equal, this would be a clean, crisp beer with bready pils malt character and of course, nice Mosaic tropical aroma/flavor. The yeast will definitely be a major factor though, being that it is T-58 which is a Belgian dry yeast. At least be aware of that. It is not a "clean" yeast per se. Fermentation temperature will be important.

Second, you're aiming for fairly low original gravity (1.048), so don't mash high. The "best" way to get the most out of a low gravity beer is actually to mash low and long, followed by a short rest up high. That's complicated for a beginner, though, so don't bother. Instead, just stick to the 150F advice. That's low enough, but not so low that your beer will have no dextrins in the wort and will lack body. I recommend mashing for 75-90 minutes, though. You want this to ferment well.

The above is especially true if you don't achieve the efficiency you have in your recipe, which is likely for a first time AG brewer. You may very well come in below 1.048. Might want to adjust the efficiency down to at least 70%.

Finally, it's an extremely pale beer. Such beers require acidification in the mash most of the time. Do you know anything about the water you'll use? Is it tap, spring, distilled, well water, etc.? Water is a whole can of worms, but there are some styles of beer where you can get away with being a bit ignorant about it. Very pale beer, though, perhaps not so much.

Now, you can ignore literally everything I said and this may work out just fine! Welcome to home brewing. It's a very simple recipe, but one that can easily bring out flaws in process because of its delicate nature.

 

[Miraculix]

Feedback:

All things being equal, this would be a clean, crisp beer with bready pils malt character and of course, nice Mosaic tropical aroma/flavor. The yeast will definitely be a major factor though, being that it is T-58 which is a Belgian dry yeast. At least be aware of that. It is not a "clean" yeast per se. Fermentation temperature will be important.

Second, you're aiming for fairly low original gravity (1.048), so don't mash high. The "best" way to get the most out of a low gravity beer is actually to mash low and long, followed by a short rest up high. That's complicated for a beginner, though, so don't bother. Instead, just stick to the 150F advice. That's low enough, but not so low that your beer will have no dextrins in the wort and will lack body. I recommend mashing for 75-90 minutes, though. You want this to ferment well.

The above is especially true if you don't achieve the efficiency you have in your recipe, which is likely for a first time AG brewer. You may very well come in below 1.048. Might want to adjust the efficiency down to at least 70%.

Finally, it's an extremely pale beer. Such beers require acidification in the mash most of the time. Do you know anything about the water you'll use? Is it tap, spring, distilled, well water, etc.? Water is a whole can of worms, but there are some styles of beer where you can get away with being a bit ignorant about it. Very pale beer, though, perhaps not so much.

Now, you can ignore literally everything I said and this may work out just fine! Welcome to home brewing. It's a very simple recipe, but one that can easily bring out flaws in process because of its delicate nature.

That is interesting. Could you please expand a bit on the reasons why to mash low for low gravity beers?

Thanks!

 

[McKnuckle]

Mash both low and high. Not just low. The high part is important. Let's take a 1.040 beer and say it attenuates 70% to 1.012 at a typical mash temp of 152F. That's 3.7% ABV, pretty darn low but okay in a style like standard English bitter, perhaps not so great in others.

Mash at 147F though, and you may hit 76% attenuation, 1.009, 4% ABV. Add a short alpha rest at 158F to that, and you'll get the benefit of some dextrins in the wort, making the body a bit richer at the (still fairly low) ABV.

This is obviously not a critical thing to do. But I have found that I like beers mashed this way when going for low ABV. It's a riff on a Hochkurz mash schedule - hitting the extremes of the mash range to get the benefits of both beta and alpha amylase.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for clarifying. I did not know what a hochkurz mash is, although the name itself already explains it. I googled it and found the following article, interesting read:

http://brulosophy.com/2017/08/14/the-mash-single-infusion-vs-hochkurz-step-mash-exbeeriment-results/

 

[thehaze]

Mash both low and high. Not just low. The high part is important. Let's take a 1.040 beer and say it attenuates 70% to 1.012 at a typical mash temp of 152F. That's 3.7% ABV, pretty darn low but okay in a style like standard English bitter, perhaps not so great in others.

Mash at 147F though, and you may hit 76% attenuation, 1.009, 4% ABV. Add a short alpha rest at 158F to that, and you'll get the benefit of some dextrins in the wort, making the body a bit richer at the (still fairly low) ABV.

This is obviously not a critical thing to do. But I have found that I like beers mashed this way when going for low ABV. It's a riff on a Hochkurz mash schedule - hitting the extremes of the mash range to get the benefits of both beta and alpha amylase.

Regarding mashing low for some minutes and then rising the temp to a 155-156, I did that in a pale beer and did not like the results.

I have better results using a single infusion at a stable temp.

 

[McKnuckle]

As I said to the OP, welcome to home brewing. Everyone has their own experience and tastes.

In any case, it has nothing to do with pale vs. dark, it's all about maximizing the mash for low gravity wort and (some would argue) to enhance malt complexity where there isn't much to begin with.

I don't want to confuse the heck out of the OP though. A 149-152F single infusion temp is still good advice for his brew.

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

Feedback:

All things being equal, this would be a clean, crisp beer with bready pils malt character and of course, nice Mosaic tropical aroma/flavor. The yeast will definitely be a major factor though, being that it is T-58 which is a Belgian dry yeast. At least be aware of that. It is not a "clean" yeast per se. Fermentation temperature will be important.

Second, you're aiming for fairly low original gravity (1.048), so don't mash high. The "best" way to get the most out of a low gravity beer is actually to mash low and long, followed by a short rest up high. That's complicated for a beginner, though, so don't bother. Instead, just stick to the 150F advice. That's low enough, but not so low that your beer will have no dextrins in the wort and will lack body. I recommend mashing for 75-90 minutes, though. You want this to ferment well.

The above is especially true if you don't achieve the efficiency you have in your recipe, which is likely for a first time AG brewer. You may very well come in below 1.048. Might want to adjust the efficiency down to at least 70%.

Finally, it's an extremely pale beer. Such beers require acidification in the mash most of the time. Do you know anything about the water you'll use? Is it tap, spring, distilled, well water, etc.? Water is a whole can of worms, but there are some styles of beer where you can get away with being a bit ignorant about it. Very pale beer, though, perhaps not so much.

Now, you can ignore literally everything I said and this may work out just fine! Welcome to home brewing. It's a very simple recipe, but one that can easily bring out flaws in process because of its delicate nature.

Thank's for your answer! I will mash for a long time and try to maintain the 150F for the entire mash duration of 90 minutes, correct? It's tap water but we have some of the best in the world, I actually got an analysis for the water.

It's in dutch however, I hope it makes sense.

I do have citric acid (food grade), would it be necessery to add some?

You mention T-58 might not be the right yeast, I have also S-33 M-36 US-05 would any of these be better? Also I have a no-name yeast which states that it ferments well and fast by 18-25C fermenting temperature. But it states it's for darker beers.

 

[Krown]

I would highly suggest to reduce your estimated effiency down to 65% as you may undershoot OG and it is already on the low side and may end up watery/thin beer.worst case you get a sligthly stronger beer that will be more forgiving.

Also something you should look into is the size of crushed grains. With biab you want the grains to be milled very fine (not like flour but broken down into small bits) to achieve a good efficiency. Ask your lhbs to double mill the grains or specify you will be doing a BIAB. Also don't be affraid to squeeze the bag to extract any stuck sugar when removint the bag.

Welcome to the hobby!

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

I would highly suggest to reduce your estimated effiency down to 65% as you may undershoot OG and it is already on the low side and may end up watery/thin beer.worst case you get a sligthly stronger beer that will be more forgiving.

Also something you should look into is the size of crushed grains. With biab you want the grains to be milled very fine (not like flour but broken down into small bits) to achieve a good efficiency. Ask your lhbs to double mill the grains or specify you will be doing a BIAB. Also don't be affraid to squeeze the bag to extract any stuck sugar when removint the bag.

Welcome to the hobby!

I will down the effiecency to 65% in the brewersfriend program, should I increase the grain bill a little then?

I have a malt mill myself and got whole malt so should I crush it twice as some people suggest?

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

How about this?

is 4.8 boil size per gallon in the fermenter enough and how much should I start with as my strike volume?

 

[Krown]

I will down the effiecency to 65% in the brewersfriend program, should I increase the grain bill a little then?

I have a malt mill myself and got whole malt so should I crush it twice as some people suggest?

I don't mill grain myself yet but from what I read in the past some people either do multiple pass or adjust mill gap to the thickness of a credit card (a bit less than 1 mm). I would suggest you to test with a small portion of your next batch grist. Mill it until it becomes powdery so you understand how what mill opening or how many pass it takes, then back-track a bit from that. For BIAB, IMO the finer the better as it will not lead to stuck sparge and will ease sugar extraction. Although this is true up to a certain extent as too fine (flour like) will prevent the bag from properly draining when you remove it, affecting your efficiency. Also, the finer the grain, the more chance you have that the grains create "dough balls" so be sure to stir you wort while progressively adding the grains.

I think the new recipe you posted with slightly higher estimated OG will be more forgiving. As for the boil size, you can either test your evaporation rate with those volume with water only and adjust before hand or just try it and adjust your volumes for your next batch. Just make sure you record as much information possible at every step: Volume pre-boil, post boil and in fermenter. This way you will be able to evaluate you grain absorption rate, evaporation rate and trub volume. Also make sure to measure wort gravity at room temperature after mash and after boil.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[schematix]

Your mash pH is going to be out of range with that water and that grain bill. You need like 2-4% acid malt or some sort of acid.

Hochkurz mash is the best mash I’ve found so far. 150F will yield a dry/thin beer with little head retention. It is however an extra step and more time.

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

Your mash pH is going to be out of range with that water and that grain bill. You need like 2-4% acid malt or some sort of acid.

Hochkurz mash is the best mash I’ve found so far. 150F will yield a dry/thin beer with little head retention. It is however an extra step and more time.

I read into the hockhurz mash and it seems fairly simple. So I will do that. I'm trying to understand why I will need acidification but I don't quite understand that. Would it help to add some citric acid? If so, how much?

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

I don't mill grain myself yet but from what I read in the past some people either do multiple pass or adjust mill gap to the thickness of a credit card (a bit less than 1 mm). I would suggest you to test with a small portion of your next batch grist. Mill it until it becomes powdery so you understand how what mill opening or how many pass it takes, then back-track a bit from that. For BIAB, IMO the finer the better as it will not lead to stuck sparge and will ease sugar extraction. Although this is true up to a certain extent as too fine (flour like) will prevent the bag from properly draining when you remove it, affecting your efficiency. Also, the finer the grain, the more chance you have that the grains create "dough balls" so be sure to stir you wort while progressively adding the grains.

I think the new recipe you posted with slightly higher estimated OG will be more forgiving. As for the boil size, you can either test your evaporation rate with those volume with water only and adjust before hand or just try it and adjust your volumes for your next batch. Just make sure you record as much information possible at every step: Volume pre-boil, post boil and in fermenter. This way you will be able to evaluate you grain absorption rate, evaporation rate and trub volume. Also make sure to measure wort gravity at room temperature after mash and after boil.

Good luck and have fun!

Thanks! I will follow the boil size I used before in the all grain kits.

Would it be a good idea to save some water and run it through the bag while lifting it above the water after mash to get more sugars out?

 

[schematix]

I read into the hockhurz mash and it seems fairly simple. So I will do that. I'm trying to understand why I will need acidification but I don't quite understand that. Would it help to add some citric acid? If so, how much?

The simple explanation is that the mash enzymes work best at certain temperature and pH ranges. This range is typically quoted as 5.2-5.8, with the lower/middle part of that range being better.

If you take that pilsner malt and your water you're going to end up around 5.8-6.0. You'll still get beer, but it's very likely you'll get poor conversion (low OG) and/or also poor attenuation (high FG).

At this point i think you'd be best off just using say 3% acid malt (24g of your 800g total). That's easier to determine by rule of thumb than the calculations required (which are easy but one thing at a time....)

Usually a Hochkurz does the first rest around 144-147 and then a second rest around 158-162. Shoot for the middle of those ranges and you'll be ok in most circumstances.

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

I've changed to 1kg total grain to get a slightly higher abv and hopefully a stronger taste. What is acid malt? Ive found on Google that this is usually a darker malt meant for dark ales? How an only 3% Change the pH so much?

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

Extra info: the pH of my tap water is exactly 7.9

 

[Miraculix]

As far as I understood the subject it is not about the ph of the water used, but about its buffering capacities and those depend on the bicarbonate levels.

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

As far as I understood the subject it is not about the ph of the water used, but about its buffering capacities and those depend on the bicarbonate levels.

So it's about the magnesium level of 6 in my water? Why would it help to add acid then, I don't understand.

 

[mbobhat]

I believe it is your 147 value in mg/L which is most likely hardness expressed as carbonate. if you are only doing 4L batch and since this is an experiment either add some known amount of acid, or just use distilled water, which is free of ions. The reason most people add darker roasted grains is because it acidifies the mash a bit to counteract the hardness of the water. Since you have no roasted malts, there will be very little acid from the mash itself, so either distilled water or adding some acid is the way to go.

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

I believe it is your 147 value in mg/L which is most likely hardness expressed as carbonate. if you are only doing 4L batch and since this is an experiment either add some known amount of acid, or just use distilled water, which is free of ions. The reason most people add darker roasted grains is because it acidifies the mash a bit to counteract the hardness of the water. Since you have no roasted malts, there will be very little acid from the mash itself, so either distilled water or adding some acid is the way to go.

So it would help to add either

Citric acid

Roasted malts

Or maybe I can buy bottled water?

 

[schematix]

All 3 I’d those bad ideas

Citric acid has a relatively strong flavor.

Roasted malts would do the trick too but you’d be going to a brown/black color.

Bottled water no guarantee. A lot of those are highly mineralized as well. It would have to specifically be distilled or reverse osmosis water though.

And even with distilled or RO water you’re pH is going to be 5.7-5.8.

Look for acidulated or sauermalt. It exists, just need to find the right term.

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

All 3 I’d those bad ideas

Citric acid has a relatively strong flavor.

Roasted malts would do the trick too but you’d be going to a brown/black color.

Bottled water no guarantee. A lot of those are highly mineralized as well. It would have to specifically be distilled or reverse osmosis water though.

And even with distilled or RO water you’re pH is going to be 5.7-5.8.

Look for acidulated or sauermalt. It exists, just need to find the right term.

I'm still trying to understand why this is but I can't find a good read. Would lactic acid help? I found sauermalt online but I would have to order that and wait another week, how much would I use?

 

[Miraculix]

Boil the water before brewing. By boiling, the carbonate will drop out as limestone and that should do the trick.

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

Boil the water before brewing. By boiling, the carbonate will drop out as limestone and that should do the trick.

Really as easy as that? It will boil away?

 

[Miraculix]

Really as easy as that? It will boil away?

It won't boil away, it flocs out. It is actually a bit more complicated as the rate of limestone generated is depending on multiple minerals but as a rule of thumb, you can use it that way. It will be fine.

 

[schematix]

Lactic acid works. That’s the acid source in acid malt.

An all Pilsner grist always requires additional acid. There’s not enough from the grain. If water has higher alkalinity you need even more acid.

 

[whovous]

I would consider switching to your US-05 yeast.

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

It won't boil away, it flocs out. It is actually a bit more complicated as the rate of limestone generated is depending on multiple minerals but as a rule of thumb, you can use it that way. It will be fine.

Oké for how long do I boil the water before adding the grains then?

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

Lactic acid works. That’s the acid source in acid malt.

An all Pilsner grist always requires additional acid. There’s not enough from the grain. If water has higher alkalinity you need even more acid.

Oké! I can buy that, how much would I add?

 

[Dutch_Brewer]

I would consider switching to your US-05 yeast.

I can do that, what would it solve?