Feedback on Saison d’hiver recipe for new brewer

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Sotko

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Planning a saison d’hiver as my second all grain brew and looking for some feedback on my recipe. I’m sure that there is a more Abbey-style recipe (special b, aromatic, D-90 or 120…) that would be delicious, but I have a dubble and BDSA in bottles right now, so I want some different right now. Maybe I’ll brew a version like that next winter. Here is what I’m thinking:

8# Maris Otter
3# Munich
1# crystal rye
0.25# chocolate rye

0.5 oz Aramis @60 min
1 oz Aramis @10 min
0.5 oz Aramis @5 min

Mash @148
Ferment with either wy3711 or copitch wl565 and wy3724 per maltose falcon’s recommendation.

would appreciate any notes!
 

Sammy86

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Since I wasn't familiar with the style I did a little research...looks like a delicious style of brew!

My only recommendation would be to use Pilsner malt instead of MO if you want to keep it true to style...Belgian preferably, German would be good as well.
 

AlexKay

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Looks good! I recently made a dubbel with crystal rye in place of special B, and was very pleased with the substitution. That said, it does look like a lot of crystal.

I like MO in a dubbel, and I could definitely see it working here.

Can always reduce number of hop additions; 10 and 5 are doing virtually the same thing for you. I’d go with a little more at 60 to get the IBUs you want, then everything else at flameout. Or you could use 60,20, and 0 additions
 
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Sotko

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Thanks for the feedback! I will reduce the crystal a little. I can combine the 5 and 10 minute additions. The Aramis I was planning to buy is 8%aa, so brewersfriend estimated this at 28 ibus. Does that sound right or should I be aiming higher?
 

monkeymath

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Thanks for the feedback! I will reduce the crystal a little. I can combine the 5 and 10 minute additions. The Aramis I was planning to buy is 8%aa, so brewersfriend estimated this at 28 ibus. Does that sound right or should I be aiming higher?

Sort of depends on the gravity you're aiming for as well as the yeast strain you choose. wy3711 produces a rather sweet beer (yes, in spite of the low final gravity, it has nothing to do with it) where you might want to have a bit more bitterness. I usually aim for roughly 30 IBUs in my ~1.050 OG saisons, and I'd probably go quite a bit higher if I were brewing to a higher gravity.

I've never made a dark saison and I've never brewed with Aramis - let us know how it turns out when you get around to brewing it!
 

mashpaddled

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IMO this looks more like a biere de garde than a saison. It's a lot of sweet flavored grains that will leave a beer with a fair amount of body and sweetness and neither are typical saison attributes even for winter saisons. If you opt for 3711 you have a perfectly fine biere de garde.
 
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Sotko

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I've never made a dark saison and I've never brewed with Aramis - let us know how it turns out when you get around to brewing it!
Just picked up supplies from the LHBS. Swapped 8# MO for 5# Pilsner 3# Vienna. Not too worried about being in style, but it should be pretty similar flavor-wise, so why not.
LHBS was out of Aramis, so I’m going with 1oz cluster @60 min and 2oz strisselspalt @15 min.

IMO this looks more like a biere de garde than a saison. It's a lot of sweet flavored grains that will leave a beer with a fair amount of body and sweetness and neither are typical saison attributes even for winter saisons. If you opt for 3711 you have a perfectly fine biere de garde.
Interesting, I guess you’re right that this will end sweeter and fuller than a Winter Saison. I thought most modern versions of BdG were cleaner fermented (even if the originals were farmhouse and likely funky)?

I don’t plan on entering this in competition, so I’m not worried about proper naming or being100% in style, but I do want to know what im actually brewing so I can describe it properly!

Thanks everyone for the notes! I’ll post and let you know how itcomes out.
 
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Sotko

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It’s in the fermenter, brewed New Years Day. The recipe I brewed was:

5# Pilsner
3# Vienna
3# Munich
0.75# CaraRye
0.25# Chocolate Rye

Mash at 149 for 60.

1 oz cluster (7.3% aa) for 60 minutes
2 oz strisselspalt (2.2%aa) for 15 minutes

Pitched 3711 at 69. Letting it sit there for a few days then slow rise to 76.

OG came in at 1.046, which is a lot lower than expected. This is my fault, still learning my equipment and process - did I mention this is my second all grain batch?

I’ll post how it comes out once it’s bottled and had a little time.
 
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Sotko

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I’ve had a few bottles now, after 4 weeks in primary and 2 weeks in bottles. The 3711 took it to about 1.000. It’s a deep brown with red tones. The aroma is malt and spice. Taste is a balance of the maltiness of the Vienna and Munich, the earthy-spice of the rye, peppery phenolics, and some of the crystal and a wife of the darker malt from the chocolate rye in the background. The low finish and maltiness make for something to full for a proper saison but still dry. Maybe bier de garde is right, but there is a lot more yeast character and less sweetness than the examples I’m familiar with.

overall, it’s really nice as a winter farmhouse ale of some sort. I will save some for next fall/winter. I will brew something like it again, but maybe tone down the pepper- either messing with my germ temp of trying a saison/farmhouse yeast with a different profile. The pepper is nice, I just want a little more ester to compliment it. Might also Mess around with the grains a little - not sure if the Pilsner and Vienna add much and I’m curious what slightly more crystal sweet version or darker versions would be like.
 
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