Fast Souring - Modern Methods

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Sc0ttyt^

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My latest sour brew:
4 lbs 2-Row
1.5 lbs Vienna
2 lbs White Wheat
Sach Trois, WY5112 Brett Brux from starters
12 drops of Brutzyme (amyloglucosidase, a-amylase, pullulanase and other dextrinases)
1 Swanson pill Lacto P. starter (1g/L chalk) 0.2L pitched at 24hr (50% AA)
Started at 67°F, rise 1°F/day until 72°F
5.7 gallon batch size (after starter pitches)

One issue, the first 20 hours (40% AA) of fermentation had no pressure relief so ester production may be suppressed. Sample taken after 7 days - 1.000 with a PH of 3.72. It seems the lacto P. does not reach terminal sourness with this method/organisms/temperature (neither good nor bad). I decided to add 0.5 lbs/gallon of frozen (pasteurized) raspberries which kicked the gravity up maybe 1.5 points. This fermentation took off. Note my graph does not display the -0.002 calibration offset for my Tilt. I'll see how things go, but I may keg this as early as day 14. Also, I am planning on adding 1oz of Hallertau Blanc hop tea at some point.

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RPh_Guy

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I have a Sour Noir (Stout) Solera that I have been cycling since 2014. I was using a 50 gallon barrel and the project/experiment has to be taken a different direction for me, so have emptied the barrel into Carboys and will referment 15 gallons for a friend to play with, he wants to distill it. the other 35 gallons will be set aside for blending and refermenting. Roselare yeast was the base, but I have added dregs of Brett and every Gueuze that I enjoyed over the years. I will refermenting with different fruits and sharing with others that will also do the same.

It has been interesting to experience the changes over time. A couple of years ago it was more acidic than I liked, but it has mellowed with age and is now changed again. It has been a very nice experiment overall and one that I would encourage others to take on. If anyone is in Michigan and Detroit area, I would love to share or collab, just message me.
You probably want to start your own thread. This has little to do with the topic here. Best of luck!
 

Beer666

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I have a beer thas finished at 996. How is this even possible? Its carbing up at the moment so i have not had a glass yet. Follows the method in this thread. Fingers crossed it drinks well as i have pitched onto the yeast cake.
 
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RPh_Guy

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I have a beer thas finished at 996. How is this even possible? Its carbing up at the moment so i have not had a glass yet. Follows the method in this thread. Fingers crossed it drinks well as i have pitched onto the yeast cake.
A hydrometer measures density. Alcohol is less dense than water.
 

Sc0ttyt^

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In addition, assertively diastaticus (STA-1+) yeast or the addition of exogenous enzymes, as outlined in this method, can easily result in a FG of 0.996. I state "assertively" because many STA-1+ yeasts will not approach critical attenuation in normal conditions. How active this gene is varies across strain and environmental conditions. The type and amount of exogenous enzymes also plays a role.
 

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I had Tiny Esses by Partisan Ales last night, really fun and good sour! I'm curious if anyone knows how they get that tangy sour flavor? It was probably the most sour beer I've had. Not puckering but def higher than your typical kettle sour. And it was different than a lacto sour, like a tangyness. Any thoughts? Thanks!
 

Dgallo

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I had Tiny Esses by Partisan Ales last night, really fun and good sour! I'm curious if anyone knows how they get that tangy sour flavor? It was probably the most sour beer I've had. Not puckering but def higher than your typical kettle sour. And it was different than a lacto sour, like a tangyness. Any thoughts? Thanks!
Could be using pedio for their lactic producing strain which gives little more depth. That says, I would honestly describe all lacto sours as tangy, is there any other ways you could describe the difference in flavor. Like did it have a slight hint of vinegar?
 

ryking13

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Could be using pedio for their lactic producing strain which gives little more depth. That says, I would honestly describe all lacto sours as tangy, is there any other ways you could describe the difference in flavor. Like did it have a slight hint of vinegar?
I'm bad at describing flavors ha, I guess I don't consider my lacto-based sours all that "tangy" where this beer was. The other way I'd describe it is that sourness that makes you pucker, def had more of that than most sours beers I've had. It didn't remind me of vinegar really but I've never had a beer with vinegar; or at least that I've known of :)
 

Dgallo

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I'm bad at describing flavors ha, I guess I don't consider my lacto-based sours all that "tangy" where this beer was. The other way I'd describe it is that sourness that makes you pucker, def had more of that than most sours beers I've had. It didn't remind me of vinegar really but I've never had a beer with vinegar; or at least that I've known of :)
Gotcha. Vinegar character is acetic acid. Some microbs make it In Healthy fermentations and others make it when stressed.

Do you drink primarily kettle sours or do you also drink mix ferms with Brett. It’s certainly possible your getting a combined character from the culture blend used
 

ryking13

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Gotcha. Vinegar character is acetic acid. Some microbs make it In Healthy fermentations and others make it when stressed.

Do you drink primarily kettle sours or do you also drink mix ferms with Brett. It’s certainly possible your getting a combined character from the culture blend used
Primarily kettle sours and then my own lacto "fast" sours. Hmm yeah I wonder if they used a Brett.
 

Dgallo

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Primarily kettle sours and then my own lacto "fast" sours. Hmm yeah I wonder if they used a Brett.
I just looked up the beer. Its a kettle/copitched lacto sour that was aged on candy. The candy most likely has citric acid and artificial flavors/sugars so it could be the difference you’re tasting
 

ryking13

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I just looked up the beer. Its a kettle/copitched lacto sour that was aged on candy. The candy most likely has citric acid and artificial flavors/sugars so it could be the difference you’re tasting
Citric acid would make sense as citrus fruit can give you that puckering feeling. Yeah I'm assuming they're adding Skittles in it, hence the tiny S's :)
 

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@RPh_Guy would the co-sour method work with Voss Kviek at a high temp like 95f? I actually want the orange esters from a fast/hot fermentation but not sure how that will affect the lacto part of things. Thanks!
 
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Would the co-sour method work with Voss Kviek at a high temp like 95f? I actually want the orange esters from a fast/hot fermentation but not sure how that will affect the lacto part of things. Thanks!
Absolutely! Keep it under 100°F.
 

VikeMan

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It didn't remind me of vinegar really but I've never had a beer with vinegar; or at least that I've known of

Surprise! Every beer has some vinegar (acetic acid) in it. Fortunately, it's rarely above taste threshold in beers where it's not intended.
 

Miles_1111

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Can you brew Sour IPA by Co-Souring Method or Post-souring method? Since no hops to be added during boiling, only drying hopping which could add limited bitterness, but not bitter enough for an IPA?
 

Dgallo

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Can you brew Sour IPA by Co-Souring Method or Post-souring method? Since no hops to be added during boiling, only drying hopping which could add limited bitterness, but not bitter enough for an IPA?
You can as long as you pitch your LAB and aloe it to sour prior to adding hops
 

Miles_1111

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I am also curious about that why not adding lactic acid to the beer directly? What difference does it make from adding L. plantarum to create lactic acid in beer?

Also if don't boil wort for brewing sour beer, how to hot break proteins and other unpleasant compounds? As this is one of the three main purposes of boiling.
 

VikeMan

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I am also curious about that why not adding lactic acid to the beer directly? What difference does it make from adding L. plantarum to create lactic acid in beer?

Lactobacillus plantarum makes other compounds too.

Think of it this way, as an anology. Ale Yeast makes alcohol, but nobody tries to make "beer" by adding pure ethanol to hop water.
 

Miraculix

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Lactobacillus plantarum makes other compounds too.

Think of it this way, as an anology. Ale Yeast makes alcohol, but nobody tries to make "beer" by adding pure ethanol to hop water.
Well....
. ........ Hard Seltzer's comes awfully close to hop water with alcohol. :D
 

Miles_1111

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What about the hop break though? If boiling is not necessary, just recommended for sour beer, what about the unpleasant compounds?
 

Beer666

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What about the hop break though? If boiling is not necessary, just recommended for sour beer, what about the unpleasant compounds?
There are no unpleasant compounds. I don't boil most of my sours. Hop tea, dry hop or both. I have some crystal clear fruited sour on tap and no one would guess its a raw beer.
 

Beer666

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This is my 4% raspberry and pineapple no boil sour. I used verdant and its still clear with time. Left on fruit and hops for 2 months. Amarillo dry hop and soured with omega labs lacto. Same pack i bought a few years ago. Very fruity on the nose. Hops in the background, almost a perfume smell. Lacto added after 3 days and it still has a bright acidity.

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Miraculix

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This is my 4% raspberry and pineapple no boil sour. I used verdant and its still clear with time. Left on fruit and hops for 2 months. Amarillo dry hop and soured with omega labs lacto. Same pack i bought a few years ago. Very fruity on the nose. Hops in the background, almost a perfume smell. Lacto added after 3 days and it still has a bright acidity.

View attachment 809914
This looks really good, I want one now!
 

Miles_1111

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There are no unpleasant compounds. I don't boil most of my sours. Hop tea, dry hop or both. I have some crystal clear fruited sour on tap and no one would guess its a raw beer.
The unpleasant compound like DMS? Maybe the sourness covers the off-flavor of DMS, or PH<5.4 could prevent the production of DMS?
 

Beer666

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Never had DMS. I dont think its produced at those temperatures. Perhaps someone else will know. I have done well over a hundred batches of raw beer. A horrible tasting acidic beer will still be a horrible beer imho.
 

Brewer dad

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The unpleasant compound like DMS? Maybe the sourness covers the off-flavor of DMS, or PH<5.4 could prevent the production of DMS?

I know we’re starting to get off op, but I’ll just add this link for reference in re the DMS for raw ales. Short version is @Beer666 is correct, DMS isn’t produced until you go above 176-185F.

Mr. Laitinen also discusses hop tea, which could be relevant to this thread.

 

Beer666

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I know we’re starting to get off op, but I’ll just add this link for reference in re the DMS for raw ales. Short version is @Beer666 is correct, DMS isn’t produced until you go above 176-185F.

Mr. Laitinen also discusses hop tea, which could be relevant to this thread.

Nice one. Will give that a read later.
 
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Very encouraging. He has some bottled sours over 5 years old! That is excellent.
I have some 20 year old stout. Some 10 year old sours (one always wishes they got into sours way sooner than they do once they start brewing them). Some 20+ year old ales and lagers (I'm a hoarder, sue me), that I probably will never drink, though I've had a couple through the years and they are not good anymore. But I can't dump them, help!

Not to get off topic...sorry,.
 
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