EZ Water Calculator 3.0

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tld6008

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So the mash ph I am looking for per a specific recipe should be the one taken at the mash temperature or correct to that temperature???
 

kal

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So the mash ph I am looking for per a specific recipe should be the one taken at the mash temperature or correct to that temperature???
It's what the recipe author intended for you to use. The problem is most recipes don't mention, so you have no way of knowing if they meant for that pH to be at room temp, or at mash temp.

Kal
 

ScrewyBrewer

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So the mash ph I am looking for per a specific recipe should be the one taken at the mash temperature or correct to that temperature???
I'd like to think they sampled mash pH at room temperature in order to extend the life of their pH meter. At least that's what I do. Spending $60 every other year on replacement electrodes is expensive enough as it is when sampling at room temperature.
 

KLMtheReal

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Thanks for this great spreadsheet! I just started looking into water chemistry in order to fight that slight grainy/astrigent flavor I get in my beers, even though I've used different malts from different LHBSs and after brewing different styles of beers. In dark beers I don't get this flavor so I assume it has to do with my mash ph/oversparging because of biab(?). In any case, my CaCO3 is 136 and using phosphoric acid 80% in light colored beers to tremendous amounts, like a whole tablespoon in a 5 gal batch, and also adding CaCl because my water is low in these minerals I still get that flavor, maybe even accentuated. Since I got my water report, I switched to acid malt so I can calculate it easier with EZ, and recently got my hands on some epsom salts since my water has a serious deficiency. My standard practice is adding all my water beforehand, meaning grain water, sparge, and also compensating with boiloff water and water for trub loss. I always end up with 5 gals of beer when bottling. Could that he the culprit? Should I split my water additions or that's the standard way of biab brewing? I should add that I haven't tried yet adding acid malt and epsom, this week's brew is going to be my first try using EZ at all. Thanks and sorry for the long post :D
 

kal

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I just started looking into water chemistry in order to fight that slight grainy/astrigent flavor I get in my beers... my CaCO3 is 136 and using phosphoric acid 80% in light colored beers to tremendous amounts...
High amount of acid can be perceived as astringent. Have you tried without? Have you ever measured with pH meter? (Spreadsheet estimators are just that: Only estimators).

Kal
 

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High amount of acid can be perceived as astringent. Have you tried without? Have you ever measured with pH meter? (Spreadsheet estimators are just that: Only estimators).

Kal
Yes, I've tried with or without acid or salt additions and I still get that grainy flavour. The guy at my LHBS tried some of my beers and asked about my boil, of it's vigorous enough and whatnot (he percieved it as DMS). The boil is extremely vigorous (I'm using propane) and I always boil 90'+. The other guys to the shop hinted I might taste "the real barley grain" since I moved from kits to all grain.
 

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I am familiar with BIAB but its not how I brew so take anything i say with a grain of salt. Are you over crushing? How fine is the crush? I've also heard not squeezing the bag is a myth. Does the flavor age out at all?

You stated that you are going to different LHBS so I doubt its their mill gap but it cant hurt to look closely. At my LHBS I always have to check the crush because they don't seem to check. I'd get like 20% efficiency if I didn't

If none of those fit I would look closer at your pH which you are addressing with the EZwater software. Astringent flavors can be attributed to rising pH.
 

KLMtheReal

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I am familiar with BIAB but its not how I brew so take anything i say with a grain of salt. Are you over crushing? How fine is the crush? I've also heard not squeezing the bag is a myth. Does the flavor age out at all?

You stated that you are going to different LHBS so I doubt its their mill gap but it cant hurt to look closely. At my LHBS I always have to check the crush because they don't seem to check. I'd get like 20% efficiency if I didn't

If none of those fit I would look closer at your pH which you are addressing with the EZwater software. Astringent flavors can be attributed to rising pH.
It actually mellows out quite nicely, but isn't it odd to have to wait 2 months after carbonation for a 4-5% beer? :p Thanks for the tips, I'll get back after brewing this beer with the EZ adjustments
 

Silver_Is_Money

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It actually mellows out quite nicely, but isn't it odd to have to wait 2 months after carbonation for a 4-5% beer? :p Thanks for the tips, I'll get back after brewing this beer with the EZ adjustments
In my opinion it's not odd if you are bottling. My bottled beers generally seem to taste best at about 4 months post carbonation.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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I'm actually using a digital thermometer and I always take temps after evenly stirring the grain bed
I have one digital thermometer that is about 3-4 degrees off (low), and one that is 10 or more degrees off (also low) when measured in boiling water (adjusted to my altitude). Both do just fine with an ice water slurry.
 

kal

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Asking again: Have you ever measured with an actual pH meter?

You mentioned "digital thermometer". Just because it's digital doesn't mean it's accurate (it's just how the info is displayed). The other poster was wondering if you've actually confirmed the accuracy of your thermometer.

Another thing not mentioned that can cause astringency is boiling bits of grain/husk. Best to get as clear beer as possible into the boil kettle.

Kal
 

KLMtheReal

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Asking again: Have you ever measured with an actual pH meter?

You mentioned "digital thermometer". Just because it's digital doesn't mean it's accurate (it's just how the info is displayed). The other poster was wondering if you've actually confirmed the accuracy of your thermometer.

Another thing not mentioned that can cause astringency is boiling bits of grain/husk. Best to get as clear beer as possible into the boil kettle.

Kal
I've never used a ph meter, but I intend to in the next brew day. I also don't have any other thermometer to confirm my temps, but the adjacent strips on my fermenters confirm the temps shown by my digital one. When I put the digital thermometer's probe in my grains (before adding in kettle) it shows around ambient temps. I also use it for my yeast rehydration water, 30°C and the yeast is always healthy and happy.. It's actually the first time I hear that a brand new digital thermometer can be inaccurate. I also inspect my grain bag very closely before each brew session. Thankfully I don't get any grains/husks in my boil. On the other hand I don't whirlpool, so I thow everything in the kettle, protein trub etc except hop matter
 

kal

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It's actually the first time I hear that a brand new digital thermometer can be inaccurate.
Again, whether a device (any device) shows you numbers (digital) or a dial (analog) has nothing to do with accuracy. There is nothing that makes "digital" more accurate. It's simply how the number is displayed.

Don't confuse accuracy with precision. (You're assuming something precise is accurate and that's not true). Links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

All devices from car brakes to bras to thermometers to rocket engines have inaccuracies included in them. How accurate they are all depends on the need and how much you want to pay.

For thermometers you can buy a $10 digital probe made in China from your grocery store. It will most likely not be overly accurate. Or you may luck out and it's bang on, but that's only going to be for the one unit you're holding in your hand. There's going to be variances between units. You just don't know until you test it with something of KNOWN accuracy. You can't read a review where someone buys a model "XYZ" temp probe and tests it and finds it very accurate and assume that you can buy one and it'll be the same. That's simply not the case.

You can then also buy very accurate NIST-certified thermometers that are used as reference devices to calibrate other thermometers. I own a bunch of analog oil filled ones that are certified to be within a range of +/- accuracy over specific ranges. They have the papers from a NIST certified lab to prove it. I use them to calibrate my digital probes or other less accurate probes.

Most of the time I use a ThermaPen (also NIST traceable) when I want a quick/accurate reading. It's closer to $100.

Every device in the world has inaccuracies built into it whether you want to or not. Buy 10 of the same item off the shelf and they will not measure the same way as the inaccuracies will all vary. This is normal. It's why you can buy a thermometer for $5 or $500. Whether it's digital or analog has absolutely nothing to do with it. Don't be duped by the fact that something digital gives you precise numbers. That $10 digital scale may say something weighs "1.0255 lbs" but you can sure as hell bet it's not that accurate. The only way to know for sure is to use calibrated weights to confirm (which will cost you 10x the price of the scale). Digital is one of the worst things to come about for this reason as confuse people the way it's confused you. If that same scale was analog with a dial, you'd say "it looks to be almost exactly 1 lb" because that's all you can tell from the dial. You eyes can't see any finer. But put a digital display on it and show "1.0255" and people incorrect;y assume that that's the actual accurate weight. It isn't. Manufacturers are to blame too for creating devices with such precision when they don't have the accuracy to back them up. They do this to appear "better" than their competitor. Which scale would you buy? Only that only measures weights to 1 decimal point or 10? Consumers are duped to believing that the more numbers there are the more accurate it is.

Kal

P.S. My background is in engineering and one of my various jobs over the last 15 years has been selling specialized home theater calibration equipment with varying degrees of accuracy that sells from around $200/unit on the low end to over $10K for high end - this idea of accuracy vs precision comes up all the time. It's not an uncommon question.
 
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Brewbuzzard

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Thanks for this great spreadsheet! I just started looking into water chemistry in order to fight that slight grainy/astrigent flavor I get in my beers, even though I've used different malts from different LHBSs and after brewing different styles of beers. In dark beers I don't get this flavor so I assume it has to do with my mash ph/oversparging because of biab(?). In any case, my CaCO3 is 136 and using phosphoric acid 80% in light colored beers to tremendous amounts, like a whole tablespoon in a 5 gal batch, and also adding CaCl because my water is low in these minerals I still get that flavor, maybe even accentuated. Since I got my water report, I switched to acid malt so I can calculate it easier with EZ, and recently got my hands on some epsom salts since my water has a serious deficiency. My standard practice is adding all my water beforehand, meaning grain water, sparge, and also compensating with boiloff water and water for trub loss. I always end up with 5 gals of beer when bottling. Could that he the culprit? Should I split my water additions or that's the standard way of biab brewing? I should add that I haven't tried yet adding acid malt and epsom, this week's brew is going to be my first try using EZ at all. Thanks and sorry for the long post :D
Before I got all the chemicals and a good Ph meter I used a solid charcoal filter, white drinking water hoses, and added 5.2 to the mash and I made great beers. I don't know your water so you may have an issue there. I live in Carrollton Tx which has good brewing water. We now use RO water but I never had astringency in my beers. Are you sure you aren't mashing out at too high a temperature? Happy brewing
 

Brewbuzzard

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I have one digital thermometer that is about 3-4 degrees off (low), and one that is 10 or more degrees off (also low) when measured in boiling water (adjusted to my altitude). Both do just fine with an ice water slurry.
I calibrate my thermometers at 150F using a very accurate ( and precise ) thermometer that I know is correct. 150 degrees is about mid range where most brewing work is performed.
 

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Before I got all the chemicals and a good Ph meter I used a solid charcoal filter, white drinking water hoses, and added 5.2 to the mash and I made great beers. I don't know your water so you may have an issue there. I live in Carrollton Tx which has good brewing water. We now use RO water but I never had astringency in my beers. Are you sure you aren't mashing out at too high a temperature? Happy brewing
Thankfully, in Athens Greece where I live, the water is slightly deficient in minerals, which is good because you can always add what is needed :p . My profile:

Ca+2 - 46
Mg+2 - 5
SO4-2 - 25
Na+ - 5
Cl- - 7
CaCO3 - 136

With water pH being 7,7 and total alkalinity is estimated to 136 (using Brewer's Friend water chemistry calculator)

I guess that's a fairly high buffer water, but I've seen worse. The only downside is that the grocery stores don't sell RO water, and I've read somewhere that deionized water that's intended for ironing, pc cooling etc is not for human consumption, because they might be adding some substances to fight oxidization off. My only option would be to install a RO system at home, which I can't for now.

EDIT: I'm using a carbon filter for chlorine
 

cire

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Thankfully, in Athens Greece where I live, the water is slightly deficient in minerals, which is good because you can always add what is needed :p . My profile:

Ca+2 - 46
Mg+2 - 5
SO4-2 - 25
Na+ - 5
Cl- - 7
CaCO3 - 136

With water pH being 7,7 and total alkalinity is estimated to 136 (using Brewer's Friend water chemistry calculator)
It will be hardness of that water profile that is 136 ppm as CaCO3. Alkalinity is likely to be less, possibly 110 ppm as CaCO3, but still high for brewing pale beers.
 

kal

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I calibrate my thermometers at 150F using a very accurate ( and precise ) thermometer that I know is correct. 150 degrees is about mid range where most brewing work is performed.
Yes, same here. If you don't have multi-point calibration available to make whatever you're using to measure accurate across a range, you're likely going to be limited to being (mostly) accurate around a target temp. For me that most important target temp is mash temp for both my MLT and HLT.

Kal
 

erda

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I need help. Something's wrong with formullas in my EZ Water Calculator 3.0.2 :(
At Step 2: , Select Grain Type, is missing drop-down list and now I have only grain numbers :(
Look at a picture.
Ez.jpg
 

Silver_Is_Money

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I need help. Something's wrong with formullas in my EZ Water Calculator 3.0.2 :(
At Step 2: , Select Grain Type, is missing drop-down list and now I have only grain numbers :(
Look at a picture.
View attachment 643230
I've noticed that this is a difference between the Excel and the LibreOffice versions. Whichever version you downloaded, try the other version instead and see if that fixes your issue.
 

kal

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I've noticed that this is a difference between the Excel and the LibreOffice versions. Whichever version you downloaded, try the other version instead and see if that fixes your issue.
Yup. And if it used to work before but now doesn't, you probably changed something by accident. Just download the same version again.

Kal
 

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Does anyone still use this spreadsheet?

I've been a fan for years but started looking into pH more. Putting the same recipes into this and Bru'n water seem to yield pretty different results. It's hard to do an apples / apples comparison simply because they are different sheets with different grain entry options and numbers behind them, so I hesitate to over-analyze it. But I've noticed that, after putting in a Brown ale recipe, and let's say that you're shooting for a 5.4 pH @ room temp mash........ Bru'n water would have you increasing the pH to get there, yet EZ water would still have you decreasing it to get there.

I guess I'm wondering if anyone's tried to compare these spreadsheets or Mash Made easy and settled on one of them as being the most accurate predictor of pH?

(I have read many times that pH isn't necessarily super important but I'd like to be sure I don't needlessly add phosphoric acid nor lime to a recipe and end up causing more problems than I'd have otherwise started with).
 

kal

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I still use it, but only to calculate salt additions and not for pH. I know there have been a lot of advances in trying to calculate or model pH but I still recommend using an actual meter instead of having software guestimate. Good luck!

Kal
 

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It would be interesting to know how the calculators work. Maybe I'll take a look at EZ's calculations since they can be clicked on and seen in Excel. You can put in numbers like 20 gallons of water and a pound of grain. You'd never brew that but just to see how the inputs affect the results. One would think that would basically spit out a pH a hair under the 7.X that you started off with, because there's so little grain involved, relatively speaking. But it ends up with numbers like 20 for the pH instead. Bru'n water does this kind of thing as well. I'd have guessed the 7.X would be a starting point, and adding grain would only lower it from there.

pH meter is on order. I'll end up figuring out what I need to do for my own recipes.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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It would be interesting to know how the calculators work. Maybe I'll take a look at EZ's calculations since they can be clicked on and seen in Excel. You can put in numbers like 20 gallons of water and a pound of grain. You'd never brew that but just to see how the inputs affect the results. One would think that would basically spit out a pH a hair under the 7.X that you started off with, because there's so little grain involved, relatively speaking. But it ends up with numbers like 20 for the pH instead. Bru'n water does this kind of thing as well. I'd have guessed the 7.X would be a starting point, and adding grain would only lower it from there.

pH meter is on order. I'll end up figuring out what I need to do for my own recipes.
I've detailed all of the essential formula's for my MME calculator over on the parent 'Brewers Friend' forum (in a single post), and I've done much of the same on this forum (albeit scattered about). You don't need to wonder at all. You can even make your own spreadsheet if you desire. Via PM's wherein I assisted, I know that someone on Brewers Friend has already done so.
 
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