Extract to All Grain

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Heitdj22

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Hi all

I am looking to make another allgrain brew. I have an extract recipe and converted it to a hazy blackberry ale last time I did it... however, I am looking for recommendations on converting the extract to grain.

Extract bill:

6 lbs light malt LME
1 lb wheat male LME
1 lb 20L crystal

Hops are Tettanger
Yeast is WLP008 (EAST COAST ALE)

I add honey during the end if the boil. And rack to a secondary fruit fermentation.
End product is a nice hazy purplish color.
And around 7.5% ABV.
 

RM-MN

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Until you brew your first all grain batch you don't know what your brewhouse efficiency will be so a direct comparison is only a guess. One could guess 75% and be close but there are times when that will be far off. I've seen people complain about low OG and discovered that their efficiency was only 55%.

Your light malt LME will have been made with a mix of grains and we don't know for sure what they are although we can make some assumptions, like mostly would be pale malt, maybe some caramel 10, and a little carapils. The wheat malt LME will also have a portion of pale malt plus probably about 35% white wheat malt.

I'd probably start with a wheat beer recipe and adjust that to get somewhere close to what you are looking for, then adjust when you know how it comes out. Here's a suggestion but you can use the recipe tab at the top and then the search for wheat beers to narrow down the choices. American Wheat Beer - American Wheat Beer - 2nd place Best of show - 2011 HBT BJCP competition
 
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Heitdj22

Heitdj22

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Ahhh... okay. I got the recipe from my local homebrew shop. And I may be able to just buy the recipe for an all grain bill from them. My brewhouse efficiency is about 65% efficient. Not great. But that's okay.
I may call and ask what they use in their LME I guess if they'll tell me. Lol
 

RM-MN

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Your brewhouse efficiency is heavily (very heavily) dependent on the milling of the grain. If you depend on someone else to mill the grain you are at their mercy. If you have your own mill, tighten it up. Keep tightening until you have a batch that doesn't want to drain. Only then do you know the limit. Do be aware that rye and wheat can be difficult because they have no husk as barley does and a conventional mash tun relies on those husks to form a filter. You can purchase rice hulls very cheaply to take the place of the barley husks in those cases.
 
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I got the recipe from my local homebrew shop. And I may be able to just buy the recipe for an all grain bill from them.
Finding the original "all-grian" recipe is the idea approach.

If at recipe no longer exists (or never existed), there are a number of things that are known and a number of things that could be reasonably assumed.

In 2015, there was an article at Briess's web site that included the grain bill for their various DME/LME products. From that, we know that Pilsen DME/LME is 99% Pilsen malt, "Golden Light" DME/LME is 99% two-row brewers malt, and "Pale Ale" DME/LME is 100% pale ale malt. One could reasonable assume that those grain bills are still in use.

How To Brew, 4e (2017) has the math for converting from all-grain to DME/LME. The process is generally reversable, but there are also likely some 'optimizaitons' (like rounding to whole containers of DME or LME.

Some "back of the envelope" calculations suggest that the 8.5 lb of "two-row" base malt and 1 lb of Wheat malt (at 75% efficiency) could be a reasonable starting point to replace the light & wheat LME.
 
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Heitdj22

Heitdj22

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Finding the original "all-grian" recipe is the idea approach.

If at recipe no longer exists (or never existed), there are a number of things that are known and a number of things that could be reasonably assumed.

In 2015, there was an article at Briess's web site that included the grain bill for their various DME/LME products. From that, we know that Pilsen DME/LME is 99% Pilsen malt, "Golden Light" DME/LME is 99% two-row brewers malt, and "Pale Ale" DME/LME is 100% pale ale malt. One could reasonable assume that those grain bills are still in use.

How To Brew, 4e (2017) has the math for converting from all-grain to DME/LME. The process is generally reversable, but there are also likely some 'optimizaitons' (like rounding to whole containers of DME or LME.

Some "back of the envelope" calculations suggest that the 8.5 lb of "two-row" base malt and 1 lb of Wheat malt (at 75% efficiency) could be a reasonable starting point to replace the light & wheat LME.

Went into the homebrew shop and here is what we have!!!
 

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On a percentage basis, the two grain bill percentages are close. The differences are likely due to LME coming in 1 lb increments.

1650314824676.png

for future readers (and those aspiring to convert extract recipes to all grain), knowing the target OG would be helpful (but not necessary).

And, as always, getting a copy of the the original all-grain recipe is the better alternative.
 
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Heitdj22

Heitdj22

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On a percentage basis, the two grain bill percentages are close. The differences are likely due to LME coming in 1 lb increments.


for future readers (and those aspiring to convert extract recipes to all grain), knowing the target OG would be helpful (but not necessary).

And, as always, getting a copy of the the original all-grain recipe is the better alternative.

This is the copy of original grain bill recipe. And target og is 1.055
 
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This is the copy of original grain bill recipe. And target og is 1.055
Thanks!

I assumed a 5 gal batch size for the all-grain recipe. For a 5.5 gal batch, the all-grain recipe would have an OG of 55:
  • 5 gal * 60 OG = 300 gravity points
  • 300 gravity points / 5.5 gal = 55 OG.
 
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Heitdj22

Heitdj22

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Oh.. I see. I have honestly not looked into how they came across the OG formula. If you could share for all that would be amazing!

But from what you're saying my post boil volume should be 5.5 gallons?
 

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Oh.. I see. I have honestly not looked into how they came across the OG formula. If you could share for all that would be amazing!

But from what you're saying my post boil volume should be 5.5 gallons?

Ideally you would want to put 5.5 gallons into the fermenter because when the fermentation is over, the trub settles out and you then end up with 5 gallons of beer to bottle or keg. I don't worry too much about getting 5.5 gallons because I can bottle 48 or 51 or even 45 bottles without getting too worried. If you want exactly 2 cases of bottles, then the 5 gallons is what you need.
 
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Oh.. I see. I have honestly not looked into how they came across the OG formula. If you could share for all that would be amazing!

Let's walk through the basic concepts (and calculations) for estimating the OG of the 'all-grain' recipe. I should have time, later today, for a second reply, which will cover converting from LME to all-grain.

OG is "gravity points" in a volume of wort.
  • OG 36 in 1 gal wort is 36 gravity points.
  • OG 36 in 3 gal wort is 108 gravity points.
One of the measurements of a fermentable ingredient is "gravity Points per Pound per Gallon" (PPG). Let's assume that LME is 36 PPG.
  • A pound of LME in a gallon of water will have an SG of 36.
    • 1 lb LME * 36 PPG / 1 gal
  • 3 pounds of LME in a gallon of water will have an OG of 108.
    • 3 lb LME * 36 PPG / 1 gal
  • 3 pounds of LME in two gallons of water will have an OG of 54.
    • 3 lb LME * 36 PPG / 2 gal
Each malt has a PPG potential. Base malts, assuming 100% mash efficiency, will typically contribute 36 PPG.

Mashes are not 100% efficient; and published recipes generally assume a mash efficiency of 75%. At 75% efficiency, each pound of base malt will yield 27 PPG (36 * 0.75). So for the all-grain recipe

1650365251728.png
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Notes:
  • LME contains water. If you add a pound of LME to a gallon of water, you will end up with more than a gallon of wort.
  • Crystal (and roasted) malts will have a lower PPG potential (often in the low 30s for crystal and mid 20s for roasted).
 
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Converting LME to all-grain.

The first step to is convert the various styles of LME into gravity points. Common styles of LME are essentially 100% base malt. Some (e.g. Wheat LME) are a blend of base malts. Some (Amber, Dark) include crystal/roasted/dark malts. Some brands provide grain bills (in percentages), some brands require 'educated' guesses. Generally,
  • extra light (or pilsen) LME converts to a Pilsen Malt;
  • light (or golden light) LME converts to a two row brewers malt;
  • pale ale LME converts to a pale ale malt
  • munich LME is often a blend (50% munich, 50% two row brewers malt)
  • wheat LME is a blend of wheat malt and base malt (percentages varies by maltser)
Using the original LME "grain bill" as an example:
  • 6 lbs light malt LME
  • 1 lb wheat malt LME
convert each LME into equivalent base malt(s):
  • For 6 lbs light malt LME, we need 216 (36 * 6) gravity points of two row brewers malt
  • For 1 lb wheat malt LME, assuming a 50/50 blend, we need 18 gravity points of wheat malt and 18 gravity points of two row brewers malt.
Adding the two items together, we need
  • 234 (218 + 18) gravity points of two row brewers malt
  • 18 gravity points of wheat malt
Next, convert from gravity points to pounds of malts. Assuming 75% mash efficiency, divide the gravity points by 27:
  • brewers malt: 234 / 27 = 8.66 lbs
  • wheat malt: 18 / 27 = .66 lbs
Finally, apply some "magic": With five gallon "all-grain" recipes, base malts are generally measured in pound or half pound increments. I made an "educated" guess to round up the wheat malt to 1 lb and round down the brewers malt to 8.5 lb.

Extract to all-grain conversion isn't an exact science or mathematical model. But if the all-grain equivalent doesn't exist, and the goal is to "brew me a memory", there are ways to recreate the recipe.

edits: clarifications.
 
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