Extract Test Batch (Using leftovers)

[Pehlman17]

I've been in the process of putting together a little stovetop system as I transition from primarily all-grain back to extract. I have been thinking about what to brew first on this new setup, and I remembered that I actually have a hodge-podge of leftover ingredients in my garage that I could use to brew a test batch of sorts. I assume rather than buying a bunch of new ingredients, I might as well test things out using things I already have lying around. I posted something similar a while back in the general brewing category when I was still assuming I'd brew on my all grain system, but I sort of ditched the idea and began thinking about this new extract setup.

Here is what I have. I'm wondering however what might be the best (if any) strategy recipe wise.

3 Lb Briess Golden Light DME
1 Lb Briess Traditional Dark DME
1 Lb D-180 syrup
(Will use distilled water. Considering maybe a tsp of CaCl2)

These could produce something in the range of 4-ish gallons of 1.050 - 1.055 OG wort.

Hops wise I have:
1oz EKG
1oz Willamette
(FWIW, I also have a couple unopened 8oz bags of Cascade and Centennial)

Yeast wise I have:
2 packets of BRY-97
(My LHBS sells Fermentis if anyone thinks BRY-97 just won't work in this context.)

Lastly, I wasn't totally sure whether I wanted to include steeping grains in the first batch or not, but I do also have:
1 Lb bag of Briess C-60
1 Lb (ish) of a mix of equal parts Chocolate Rye, Midnight Wheat, and Golden Naked oats.

Anyway, it might be a bit of a Frankenstein beer, but I figured I'd throw the idea out there and see if anyone has thoughts and/or suggestions.

Cheers!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

3 Lb Briess Golden Light DME
1 Lb Briess Traditional Dark DME
1 Lb D-180 syrup

Roughly 65% base malt, 10% Munich 10, 20% sugar.

Adding the blend appears to move the wort towards a dark standard strength ale; consider using EKG & Willamette for bittering (30 min boil) and use the "C" hops for aroma / flavor.

Adding both the blend and the 60L is a lot of specialty malt, but if you enjoy a maltier/sweeter beer on occasion, consider giving it a try.

 

[Pehlman17]

Adding both the blend and the 60L is a lot of specialty malt, but if you enjoy a maltier/sweeter beer on occasion, consider giving it a try.

Oh sorry, haha. I wasn’t implying that I’d use the full Lb of each, just saying how much of each I have on hand. I likely wouldn’t exceed 1 Lb total combined, if even that much.

Another thing I should have specified, I’m doing a 30 minute boil with about half of the DME, then will add the D-180 toward the end and top up the kettle with the rest of the DME in a slurry with 1/2gal of water, a la the @D.B.Moody method. Hopefully that’ll give me some decent hop utilization even if I just chose to use the EKG and Willamette alone. However, I don’t hate the idea of maybe tossing a touch of cascade in at the very end.

I think the D-180 syrup is the real wildcard here. I’m curious as to whether I’d be better off not even using it and making more of a sessionable dark ale of some sort. Ultimately the goal here is more of a trial run of the stovetop extract process more so than about the beer it creates. But I’d still like to have something at least drinkable as a result haha.

 

[mac_1103]

These could produce something in the range of 4-ish gallons of 1.050 - 1.055 OG wort.

Or 2.5 gallons of 1.085. You've almost got a Belgian Dark Strong Ale on your hands, but I guess the yeast and the hops are all wrong.

 

[Pehlman17]

Or 2.5 gallons of 1.085. You've almost got a Belgian Dark Strong Ale on your hands, but I guess the yeast and the hops are all wrong.

Yeah for sure. I considered something like that. I could pick up some BE-256 from my LHBS I suppose. I still want to make 4 gallons though since that’s generally what I’ll be producing on this setup. But I did consider swapping out the yeast if I couldn’t figure out how to make it work using only what I already have. And with the D-180 a Belgian strain seems like a no-brainer.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Okay, I'm going to go in a different direction in case it interests you. This is also with the idea of using more of your existing/open ingredients for the sake of just doing a fairly basic test batch. I'm seeing roughly this...

3 Lb Briess Golden Light DME
1 Lb Briess Traditional Dark DME
2oz chocolate rye (blend)
2oz midnight wheat (blend)
2oz golden naked oats (blend)

.25oz EKG @ 30 mins
.25oz Willamette @ 30 mins
.25oz EKG @ 15 mins
.25oz Willamette @ 15 mins
.5oz EKG @ 5 mins
.5oz Willamette @ 5 mins

That would give you about a 4.6% red/amber beer that's pushing the high side of the stats for SRM. You can even add some of the D-180 to bump the gravity slightly and make it more interesting. I wouldn't add any C60 for my taste but you could certainly add that too. Of course, either is going to push you out of spec for a red ale but who cares.

The hop schedule would give you a decent bitterness and some nice hop flavor. You can play with the schedule according to your preference and the specific alpha content of your hops. I think that schedule should put you about right in the middle for BU/GU. I like my lighter lagers/ales a little more on the bitter side, though.

Use your neutral water profile and ferment with BRY-97 as cold as you can go. In my experience BRY-97 makes a very nice, crisp beer across a decent temp range. If it gets a little fruity then you're still totally fine. Brew it, have a drink, and then call it whatever style it tastes like most

This also keeps your process simple and similar to what you're planning to do moving forward. Cheers to Frankenbeers!

 

[Pehlman17]

Okay, I'm going to go in a different direction in case it interests you. This is also with the idea of using more of your existing/open ingredients for the sake of just doing a fairly basic test batch. I'm seeing roughly this...

3 Lb Briess Golden Light DME
1 Lb Briess Traditional Dark DME
2oz chocolate rye (blend)
2oz midnight wheat (blend)
2oz golden naked oats (blend)

.25oz EKG @ 30 mins
.25oz Willamette @ 30 mins
.25oz EKG @ 15 mins
.25oz Willamette @ 15 mins
.5oz EKG @ 5 mins
.5oz Willamette @ 5 mins

You’re probably right. I think keeping it simple is the way to go. I’ll probably leave the D-180 out completely. A blend of just the Willamette and EKG will probably do nicely. As far as the grains I might mix in a touch of the C-60, but likely no more than 1/4 Lb. I like the thought of keeping as a sessionable red/brown. Thanks!

 

[Pehlman17]

Ok, I think I've settled on a recipe...

3 Lb Briess Golden Light DME (1.5 Lb at start of boil, 1.5 Lb at end of boil)
1 Lb Briess Traditional Dark DME (end of boil)
4 oz D-180 syrup (end of boil)
8 oz Briess C-60 (steeped)
8 oz (combined) Chocolate Rye/Midnight Wheat/Naked Oats blend (steeped)
1 oz EKG hops (30 min.)
1 oz Willamette hops (5 min.)
1 packet BRY-97 @ 68F

Stats wise according to BeerSmith: 1.045 OG, 25 IBU, 24 SRM, 4.8% Est. ABV.

Puts things pretty squarely in the English Porter category, however I'm sure Belgian candi syrup, American ale yeast, and some dehusked dark malts might skew this flavorwise just a tad. But I'm hopeful that it'll be a tasty beer regardless, and ultimately it'll give me the chance to see how I like extract brewing again after not doing it for many years.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Well, there it was...just staring us in the face. That's not a bad porter recipe. I think it looks interesting and I totally agree with your choice of hop placement and timing.

Like you mentioned, I'm curious to see how it turns out with the candi syrup and that yeast. I think the coffee and fruit from the candi sryup could work in this. Could be a little weird but that's the fun. I don't think that's going to be a bad recipe at all!

If you remember post back and let us know how it turns out

 

[Pehlman17]

Well, there it was...just staring us in the face. That's not a bad porter recipe. I think it looks interesting and I totally agree with your choice of hop placement and timing.

Like you mentioned, I'm curious to see how it turns out with the candi syrup and that yeast. I think the coffee and fruit from the candi sryup could work in this. Could be a little weird but that's the fun. I don't think that's going to be a bad recipe at all!

If you remember post back and let us know how it turns out

Haha yeah I knew there had to be something workable in there. I’ll definitely be sure to post an update once’s it’s brewed. I’m moving in the next couple weeks so I’m hoping to make it the inaugural brew at my new place early next month. Thanks for the help!

 

[Miraculix]

Ok, I think I've settled on a recipe...

3 Lb Briess Golden Light DME (1.5 Lb at start of boil, 1.5 Lb at end of boil)
1 Lb Briess Traditional Dark DME (end of boil)
4 oz D-180 syrup (end of boil)
8 oz Briess C-60 (steeped)
8 oz (combined) Chocolate Rye/Midnight Wheat/Naked Oats blend (steeped)
1 oz EKG hops (30 min.)
1 oz Willamette hops (5 min.)
1 packet BRY-97 @ 68F

Stats wise according to BeerSmith: 1.045 OG, 25 IBU, 24 SRM, 4.8% Est. ABV.

Puts things pretty squarely in the English Porter category, however I'm sure Belgian candi syrup, American ale yeast, and some dehusked dark malts might skew this flavorwise just a tad. But I'm hopeful that it'll be a tasty beer regardless, and ultimately it'll give me the chance to see how I like extract brewing again after not doing it for many years.

Move all extract to the end of the boil. This lessens detrimental impact of the heat on the extract.

Oats are no steeping grains, they need to be mashed.

This is a nice stout base with some small twists but I am 100% sure that you won't be recognising them in the final product. Yeast is fine, everything else also.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Move all extract to the end of the boil. This lessens detrimental impact of the heat on the extract.

If one can brew an NHC gold American Lager using DME and a 60 minute boil (link), what is the detrimental impact for (properly) boiling DME?

 

[Miraculix]

If one can brew an NHC gold American Lager using DME and a 60 minute boil (link), what is the detrimental impact for (properly) boiling DME?

It's not good for the extract, the extract darkens and flavour compounds are lost and destroyed. You might have still a great beer after boiling it for 60 minutes, but it would have been even better without boiling the extract. Extract has already been boiled, there is no reason to boil it again except for sanitation purposes. Even these are usually not necessary as the big brands extracts should be free of microorganisms.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

You might have still a great beer after boiling it for 60 minutes, but

So no detrimental impact as a great beer was made.

the big brands extracts should be free of microorganisms.

This also assumes the produce was not repackaged along the way. Heating to kill the microorganisms is a common practice.

 

[Pehlman17]

Oats are no steeping grains, they need to be mashed.

My understanding with Golden Naked Oats specifically is that they are roasted and essentially considered a type of crystal malt, and thus can be steeped without starch issues.

 

[Miraculix]

So no detrimental impact as a great beer was made.


This also assumes the produce was not repackaged along the way. Heating to kill the microorganisms is a common practice.

You have to understand that striving for optimal conditions leaves room for less optimal conditions still resulting into great results. It's just that optimal conditions would lead to even better results.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

You have to understand that striving for optimal conditions leaves room for less optimal conditions still resulting into great results.

The forums had that discussion a couple of years ago. End result seemed to be an understanding of different groups of brewers: one group striving to make the next batch the best beer ever; another group wanting to make enjoyable beer; yet another group that moves between the two groups.

There was a time when forum wisdom stated that one could only make hop forward or yeast forward styles with DME (or LME). The NHC recipe seems to have challenged (and defeated) that wisdom - and used a 60 minute boil to accomplish it.

It is possible that there are specific off flavors (which would have specific names) associated with improper boiling of wort. Much like "extract twang", "detrimental impact" isn't really helpful for that discussion.

 

[Miraculix]

The forums had that discussion a couple of years ago. End result seemed to be an understanding of different groups of brewers: one group striving to make the next batch the best beer ever; another group wanting to make enjoyable beer; yet another group that moves between the two groups.

There was a time when forum wisdom stated that one could only make hop forward or yeast forward styles with DME (or LME). The NHC recipe seems to have challenged (and defeated) that wisdom - and used a 60 minute boil to accomplish it.

It is possible that there are specific off flavors (which would have specific names) associated with improper boiling of wort. Much like "extract twang", "detrimental impact" isn't really helpful for that discussion.

It's just basic physics. You got a mix of all kind of things, they brake down with time. You apply heat, they break down even faster. You seem to deny that fact a little bit. That's actually all everybody would need to know to come to the conclusion that prolonged boiling is detrimental to extract.


Unless you want to enforce these reactions.

 

[mac_1103]

Extract has already been boiled, there is no reason to boil it again except for sanitation purposes.

I'm not sure this is correct. Briess' website says that "After lautering, the wort is gently vacuum evaporated to maintain its rich, full flavor and lessen color development." I interpret "after lautering" to mean after lautering, not after boiling.

Edit - that doesn't mean that it NEEDS to be boiled of course.

 

[mac_1103]

Breiss also says "Briess CBW® malt extracts get all of their color and flavor from base and specialty malts, never through additional boiling."

 

[Miraculix]

I'm not sure this is correct. Briess' website says that "After lautering, the wort is gently vacuum evaporated to maintain its rich, full flavor and lessen color development." I interpret "after lautering" to mean after lautering, not after boiling.

Edit - that doesn't mean that it NEEDS to be boiled of course.

Even better, less impact on the taste then!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It's just basic physics. You got a mix of all kind of things, they brake down with time. You apply heat, they break down even faster. You seem to deny that fact a little bit. That's actually all everybody would need to know to come to the conclusion that prolonged boiling is detrimental to extract.

I know how boiling works. There's no denial of how boiling works. There is also the observation that boiling wort adds things and removes things. Beyond that, without specific off flavor descriptions and a definition of how long "prolonged" is, this discussion isn't going anywhere useful.

FWIW, when I brew with DME, it's generally either 30 min full volume boil or a "hop steep" (180F for 20 or 30 min). Different beer styles have different boil times based on what I want to achieve.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Briess' website says that "After lautering, the wort is gently vacuum evaporated to maintain its rich, full flavor and lessen color development." I interpret "after lautering" to mean after lautering, not after boiling.

Breiss also says "Briess CBW® malt extracts get all of their color and flavor from base and specialty malts, never through additional boiling."

the follow is inspired by the above comments:

Here's a side 'experiment'/observation that one can perform with Briess DME. Heat the water to about 140F, then add the DME. Heat the wort to a boil, observing the wort periodically (every five minutes or every 10F increase in temperature, whichever comes first). Let the wort boil gently for 5 minutes, observing the wort, before adding the hops.

Repeat the side 'experiment'/observation with Muntons DME.

Did you see flakes forming in the wort at around 170F with one (or both) of the brands of DME? During the early part of the boil, did you see foam with one (or both) of the brands?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

A couple of additional observations on boiling.

The intensity of the boil, in addition to boil time is a consideration. There's a video (that some of us link to periodically) that visually shows various levels of intensity.

Zymurgy magazine (2018?) has an article on boiling wort.