Extract Brewer interested in AG

[cheezydemon]

Damn Squirrels gave a really good answer at the end of another thread pertaining to this, but I thought it just might deserve a new thread.

For a "bare bones" AG set up, cheap being a key factor, He suggested that 2 5-7 gallons buckets, one that could fit in the other, the inner one drilled with holes, would do the trick. Fill the buckets with hot water and grain, after enough time lift out the inner bucket and PRESTO! Wort!(assuming the correct temps and time)

That being sound advice, I understand chillers, but why is there a lot of other equipment needed? Is it mainly for sparging?

People (mostly at the local brew shop) say that the equipment is really expensive, but that that it is a cheaper in the long run. What is so expensive? I know this has been studied on this site and I could research it on other sites, but I would like some practical advice. I know I have made this too wordy and asked several questions, so take your pick. Thanks.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

What I suggested would work fine. But from there, it's a matter of making subtle improvements...

First, the buckets don't hold a very steady mash temp. They'll lose 5-7 degrees over the course of an hour. Now, bearing in mind that mashing really ONLY occurs between 146 and 158 degrees, you can see you've got a very narrow window to work with to begin with. Coolers allow for much better control. They don't have to be a superduper $50 cooler. Anything 5-10 gallons in size will work (depending on your level of ambition) for a 5 gallon batch and will keep your mash temps within a degree or two over the course of an hour.

Second, my bucket system doesn't allow you to vorlauf. Vorlauf is where you take the first couple of quarts and pour them back to the top of the mashtun. This makes sure that your wort has as few particles as possible. Those particles, if boiled, will leach tannins into you beer. Most people over react to that, but it's a legitimate issue. Vorlaufing will result in clearer beer as well.

Third, the bucket system doesn't really let you control the outflow speed. This is important when you are sparging something sticky, such as wheat or oats.

So something with a spigot is, in my mind, almost a necessity. And since coolers can be had for under $20, it's hard not to see the reasoning behind picking one of those up as well.


Then there's RIMS, SIMS, HERMS, etc... yowza!!!!

 

[cheezydemon]

So filtering of some sort is almost a necessity to reduce tannins and floaties.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Yes.. and not just like a strainer as a filter. I'm talking about using the grain bed as its own filter. As you drain your wort, the bed compacts and becomes tighter. So long as it doesn't stop the flow (a legitimate concern with some sticky grists), the tighter the better.

And the more you vorlauf, the tighter the grain bed will be for the first few quarts.

 

[dj_van_gilder]

I built one of these last night using a 5 gal cooler, but I will probably just stick with partial mash/extract for the time being until I can get a wort chiller and a bigger brew kettle.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=19413&highlight=mini+braid

 

[brewt00l]

That being sound advice, I understand chillers, but why is there a lot of other equipment needed? Is it mainly for sparging?

What other equipment are you talking about??


Like just about everything in the world, there are many ways to get the job done and different pros/cons with each. By the time I went AG, I really only needed a couple items to get the job done so there wasn't much cost involved.

 

[FlyingHorse]

He suggested that 2 5-7 gallons buckets, one that could fit in the other, the inner one drilled with holes, would do the trick.

Add a spigot near he bottom of the outside bucket, and this is essentially the "Zapap" lauter tun described in Papazian's CJOH. This would enable you to vorlauf, but you'd still have the temp control issues noted by DS. Of course you could mash in your kettle (adding heat as needed to control temp) and use the bucket just as a lauter tun. I used this setup for a few PMs; it works OK. For full AG batches, though, a cooler setup would be easier to use and not that much more of an ivestment.

 

[Drunkensatyr]

The cheapest way to get into it (assuming that you have a 8-10 gal pot and an outdoor burner) is to make a cooler mash tun (made mine for under 50 total) and just batch sparge. That way you do not need a constant supply of hot water, or a sparge arm setup. When I was starting out, I would heat my sparge water to about 175f and pour it into my bottling bucket so I could drain the Mash Tun into the kettle. Then it is as easy as pouring the hot water into the cooler, stirring like hell and letting it sit another 10 min. Drain again into kettle, and proceed as normal.

Good thread for MLT

And remember, you can use a square or rectangular cooler that you pick up for 20 bucks instead of the more expensive round 'Gott' Style

 

[cheezydemon]

So maybe a cooler with a bucket inside, or this:

http://ablekitchen.com/productdetails.asp?productcode=AF-12076

(not exactly cheap, but maybe a used one on e-bay)

It might not sit exactly tight, but if most of the grain were caught in it(after sitting for the appropriate time) and then you vorlauf plenty of times, maybe making a well in the grains and pouring into the middle. Does that sound plausable?

 

[Yooper]

Damn Squirrels gave a really good answer at the end of another thread pertaining to this, but I thought it just might deserve a new thread.

For a "bare bones" AG set up, cheap being a key factor, He suggested that 2 5-7 gallons buckets, one that could fit in the other, the inner one drilled with holes, would do the trick. Fill the buckets with hot water and grain, after enough time lift out the inner bucket and PRESTO! Wort!(assuming the correct temps and time)

That being sound advice, I understand chillers, but why is there a lot of other equipment needed? Is it mainly for sparging?

People (mostly at the local brew shop) say that the equipment is really expensive, but that that it is a cheaper in the long run. What is so expensive? I know this has been studied on this site and I could research it on other sites, but I would like some practical advice. I know I have made this too wordy and asked several questions, so take your pick. Thanks.

My only investments that I needed when I went to AG were a bigger brewpot (you start with around 6.5 gallons and boil down to 5 gallons), the MLT (cooler) and the wort chiller. You could go whole hog and get a big 3 tier setup, or go the cheapie route and use buckets and two pots. There is also a whole range of everything in between. For an easy picture of an easy kitchen set up, see here: http://howtobrew.com/section3/chapter18.html
That's kind of the way mine is done.

 

[cubbies]

It can be done, and as a matter of fact it is how I do it. However, I made some 'improvements' or at least adjustments.

I made the typical zapap with a 6 gallon bucket drilled with about a quarter million holes inside a 7 gallon bucket. However, instead of a typical bucket, I used a bottling bucket, so I have a spigot. Because of that I can vorlauf rather easily. On top of that, I got the biggest grain bag I could, and I put the smaller bucket in the grain bag, and then put that in the bottling bucket and secure it with clamps. This provides some additional filtering and I have had 0 problem with grain husks or any other particulate in my brews.

As for temp control, there are things that can be done here too. I bought a piece (I think it is about 4ft) of plumbing insulation, which I wrap around the buckets, and then I wrap a thick towel around the insulation and secure it all with a couple of bungee cords and clamps. I am convinced that this is not as good as a cooler, but it is close. I usually dont lose more than three degrees, and I even had one brew day that I held a constant temp for over an hour.

There is a downside though. By the nature of how these are put together, there is a space between the spigot and the bottom of the second bucket. This means that more water is necessary to keep the grainbed covered. All this means is that you will collect a little more wort than you would otherwise and may have to boil slightly longer.

I used this system because I was just wanting to get my feet wet in AG, and didnt want to incur a bunch of cost...this system cost me about 10 bucks. I am going to upgrade to a cooler before too long, but I am going on a cruise in a few weeks and SWMBO probably wont let me spend money on brew stuff before that. However, all in all, this system works great for decoction and single infusion mashes, and if/when doing step mashes I just mash in my kettle and use this contraption as a lauter tun.

 

[brewt00l]

No offense ment but that sounds like 10 bucks and a bunch of extra work when I spent like 40 bucks for a cooler and conversion supplies.

 

[cubbies]

No offense taken, but what is the extra work? I put a bucket in a bag and wrap it in insulation...takes about two minutes.

 

[cubbies]

Unless you were talking about drilling the holes, and yes that was some work. Didnt really know what I was getting myself into. If I had to do it all over again, yeah, I probably would have gone with a cooler, but if someone is restricted on $, I would say this is the cheapest, yet still effective way to do it.

 

[brewt00l]

Unless you were talking about drilling the holes, and yes that was some work. Didnt really know what I was getting myself into. If I had to do it all over again, yeah, I probably would have gone with a cooler, but if someone is restricted on $, I would say this is the cheapest, yet still effective way to do it.

Between the build, adapting to shortcomings of the equipment and your description of the actual brewing process, a converted cooler is a no brainer for just 30 bucks extra. Heck, you even mention it isn't as good and your going to a converted cooler in the near future!

I think you have an ingenious setup going with those resources but when you can roll right into the alternative we would both declare "better" for 30 bucks more, why? (IMHO, My POV, YYMV )

 

[cheezydemon]

Cheap was the operative word, but cheap means something different to everyone. So you are both right! For me space and simplicity are huge considerations. I can't dedicate even 5 hours to brewing a batch.
This is all great info. Did anyone check out my link? That thing is $89 or so, but it looks great! (it was on the last page)

 

[cubbies]

Well, I was looking for as cheap as possible when I went in. I didn't know how I was going to adapt to AG brewing, as it seemed really complicated getting into it. So, the difference between 10 and 50 was big enough for me I guess.

However, now that I have done it and realize there is really not much to it, I plan to upgrade. However, when I do upgrade, it will likely be more than 50 bucks as I probably wont go for the 5 gallon cooler. I will probably go with either the 10 gallon round, or the 48qt cube...and those are typically over $50 before you even buy the other parts.

 

[FlyGuy]

Just wanted to add another quick point -- if you spend the bit of extra money and convert a round beverage cooler, those coolers can be used for other things as well, making that extra expense a bit more palatable.

Those 10 gal round coolers make great fermentation chambers/lagerators. A glass carboy or bucket or Better Bottle fit perfectly in the cooler - you just need to add ice/cool water and fashion something for a lid (a sleeping bag would do).

They also fit a corny keg if you want to put one of those on ice.

Of course, you could use it for keeping things cold on a camping trip or a deck party, too (kind of an obvious one).

Anyways, you get the picture.

 

[CBBaron]

The mashtun was the cheapest part of my AG setup.
My mashtun is a 5gal rubbermaid cooler with a stainless braid, rubber stopper and copper tube. Cost less than $30.
But I also needed to be able to do full boils - $60 7.5gal turkey fryer.
Full boils required a wort chiller to bring the temps down in a reasonable time - $55 immersion chiller
So for less than $150 I went from stove top extract to AG. My per batch cost went from $30-$35 down to ~$20 so it will take about 10 batches to make up the costs. However I also think my beer tastes better, but I didn't make many extract beers before upgrading so I don't have a good sample.

Craig

 

[brewt00l]

Well, I was looking for as cheap as possible when I went in. I didn't know how I was going to adapt to AG brewing, as it seemed really complicated getting into it. So, the difference between 10 and 50 was big enough for me I guess.

However, now that I have done it and realize there is really not much to it, I plan to upgrade. However, when I do upgrade, it will likely be more than 50 bucks as I probably wont go for the 5 gallon cooler. I will probably go with either the 10 gallon round, or the 48qt cube...and those are typically over $50 before you even buy the other parts.

fwiw, I picked up a 10 gallon round on sale for 30 and change. Like anything if you wait to find an item on sale, it can make a difference.

 

[cubbies]

fwiw, I picked up a 10 gallon round on sale for 30 and change. Like anything if you wait to find an item on sale, it can make a difference.

Where did you pick it up at? I havent looked in a while, but when I was looking 10 gallon coolers were rare and $60-70

 

[brewt00l]

Where did you pick it up at? I havent looked in a while, but when I was looking 10 gallon coolers were rare and $60-70

Home Depot. It was right when they were rolling out the coolers for their seasonal item change over.

Edit: oh, if you watch the equipment forum, folks will post when they find deals at target, wallyworld, ect..

 

[cubbies]

Thanks, I'll keep an eye out.