Extract addition in last 15min of boil?

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Neomich said:
This sounds like a good idea. My last batch doesn't have much hops flavor and it's probably because all that LME that was in there. I'll definitely use this on my next batch. It's a Pale Rye Ale and there's no such thing as too hoppy with that.
If you keep the boil pot to 1 gal of water with 1 lb of malt it'll give you a gravity about 1.040. At that gravity the max hop bitterness extraction (30%) takes place over 1 hr.

If you did a small boil and added all your malt the gravity will be high and the hop utilization (bitterness) will be low.

Hop flavor comes from the hops added during the last 10 mins or so in the boil.
 
homebrewer_99 said:
If you keep the boil pot to 1 gal of water with 1 lb of malt it'll give you a gravity about 1.040. At that gravity the max hop bitterness extraction (30%) takes place over 1 hr.

If you did a small boil and added all your malt the gravity will be high and the hop utilization (bitterness) will be low.

Hop flavor comes from the hops added during the last 10 mins or so in the boil.

HB,

I usually boil about 1/2 my extract (generally 3 - 4 lbs) in about 2.5 - 3 gallons and then add the rest at flameout to steep. Are you saying that you only boil 1 pound in 1 gallon then add the rest (5 or 6 pounds) late in the boil?

If that's what you're doing, I'm sure it works well ('cause I've seen the pics of your brews) so I may switch to that method. My boil isn't the strongest even at 3 gallons. It would probably speed up the process (both reaching boiling and cooling to pitching temps), too.
 
No, I think he's saying that ~1 lb per gallon gives you the best hops utilization, so for a 3 gallon boil, you'd want ~3 lb of extract (or a little more for LME, a little less for DME, but that's a good average).
 
IowaStateFan said:
HB,

I usually boil about 1/2 my extract (generally 3 - 4 lbs) in about 2.5 - 3 gallons and then add the rest at flameout to steep. Are you saying that you only boil 1 pound in 1 gallon then add the rest (5 or 6 pounds) late in the boil?

If that's what you're doing, I'm sure it works well ('cause I've seen the pics of your brews) so I may switch to that method. My boil isn't the strongest even at 3 gallons. It would probably speed up the process (both reaching boiling and cooling to pitching temps), too.
Yes. What I actually do varies according to the recipe, but my general practice goes something like this:

(NOTE: I use mostly DME, but have been steeping 1-2 lbs of grain first.)

I actually start my water at 1.5 gals (because some of it will evaporate) with 1 lb of malt (NOTE: If I steep 2 lbs of malt that is equivilent of 1.2 lbs of DME so I don't add any DME to the boil, but my water is upped to begin at 2 gals - 1 for steeping and 1 for sparging) and whatever hops I will use.

I make a lot of Weizens and only use 3% AA for the entire batch.

If you are making an American Ale or a Stout just add all the bittering hops right after the steeped water starts boiling. That's when time (60 mins) starts.

At 45 mins I turn the flame off. Then I add the DME 1 lb at a time and let it dissolve before adding the next lb, and repeat. The amount of DME I add is usually 4.5 - 5 lbs. depending on the recipe.

After all the malt is dissolved then my final 15 mins starts.

My pre-brewing schedule involves a starter naturally, but I also place 4 - 1 gal water jugs of PUR filtered tap water in the freezer for 4-5 hours prior to brewing.

I'll pour 1 gal in the primary and put a nylon net on the bucket (held in place with 6 spring-type clothes pins to hold the weight of the wort while I'm pouring). I'll pour the hot wort into the bucket (the net captures the hops) then I'll pour another gal of water over the hops and remove the nylon net.

I top off to 5.25 gals and stir. Depending on if I use grains (2 gals) or not (1.5 gals) will affect the amount of freezer water added to top off. This also affects the final temperture in the primary. By topping off to 5.25 without grains the temp is usually anywhere from 63-68F, with 2 gals it'll go as high as 78-80F which is good enough to pitch your yeast in after the wort is stirred/mixed well. ;)

That's basically it in a nutshell.
 
homebrewer_99 said:
(NOTE: If I steep 2 lbs of malt that is equivilent of 1.2 lbs of DME so I don't add any DME to the boil, but my water is upped to begin at 2 gals - 1 for steeping and 1 for sparging) and whatever hops I will use.

Wait, I'm confused, are we talking steeping here or partial mash? I didn't think you'd get enough sugar from just steeping to give you the gravity you're looking for?
 
Scimmia said:
No, I think he's saying that ~1 lb per gallon gives you the best hops utilization, so for a 3 gallon boil, you'd want ~3 lb of extract (or a little more for LME, a little less for DME, but that's a good average).

I love it when things are simple. I'm still a total noob and this is very helpful (talking to myself now...1 lb per gallon...1lb per gallon definitely...1 lb per gallon).

Scimmia beat me to the next question:

"Wait, I'm confused, are we talking steeping here or partial mash? I didn't think you'd get enough sugar from just steeping to give you the gravity you're looking for?"

I'd like to try steeping grains soon but I'd wonder if it throws off the ratio of water to *ME.
 
Scimmia said:
Wait, I'm confused, are we talking steeping here or partial mash? I didn't think you'd get enough sugar from just steeping to give you the gravity you're looking for?
Very true. Steeping extracts around 40%, so with 2 lbs that'll be 80% - for 1 gal of water. Sometimes I will reduce my steeping water to 3/4 gal and sparge with the same bringing it to 1.5 where I usually start.

It really depends (on my mood at the time) and the recipe, but at 2 gals of water I will also add 1 lb DME to try to get it near a 1.040 gravity. :D

NOTE: I didn't right down EVERY step I do...:eek:...:D
 
homebrewer_99 said:
Very true. Steeping extracts around 40%, so with 2 lbs that'll be 80% - for 1 gal of water. Sometimes I will reduce my steeping water to 3/4 gal and sparge with the same bringing it to 1.5 where I usually start.

It really depends (on my mood at the time) and the recipe, but at 2 gals of water I will also add 1 lb DME to try to get it near a 1.040 gravity. :D

NOTE: I didn't right down EVERY step I do...:eek:...:D

OK. Now we are cooking with gas! I'm going to do a 3.5 gallon boil for this:

6 lbs. gold light malt extract
3.3 lbs. amber light malt extract
0.5 lb. crystal malt, 50° Lovibond
0.5 lb. toasted malt, 25° Lovibond
2 oz. Cascade hops (7% alpha acid), for 60 min.
1 oz. Willamette hops (4.8% alpha acid), for 5 min.
1 oz. East Kent Goldings hops (5.5% alpha acid), for 5 min.
Wyeast 1098 (British ale)

Judging by the 1lb *ME to 1gal rule of thumb and the 2lb steeping grains = 1.2 DME rule of thumb discussed here, I was thinking of adding 2.9 lbs of ME post steeping of 1lb of grains (3.5 - .60), adding 2 oz Cascade, boil 50 minutes, add remaining hops, boil 10, remove from heat and add remaining *ME till disolved and cool.

I don't want to waste the hops as I did on my first brew (not added at the right time and added all the extract up front) but is this overkill in the other direction? I just absolutely love hops and just want to brew what I love.
 
homebrewer_99 said:
Very true. Steeping extracts around 40%, so with 2 lbs that'll be 80% - for 1 gal of water. Sometimes I will reduce my steeping water to 3/4 gal and sparge with the same bringing it to 1.5 where I usually start.

It really depends (on my mood at the time) and the recipe, but at 2 gals of water I will also add 1 lb DME to try to get it near a 1.040 gravity. :D

NOTE: I didn't right down EVERY step I do...:eek:...:D

haha, no, I appreciate your insight, and taking time to help a newbie get everything figured out (hmm, I should probably spend more time brewing and less time reading, though:D)
 
gwood said:
OK. Now we are cooking with gas! I'm going to do a 3.5 gallon boil for this:

6 lbs. gold light malt extract
3.3 lbs. amber light malt extract
0.5 lb. crystal malt, 50° Lovibond
0.5 lb. toasted malt, 25° Lovibond
2 oz. Cascade hops (7% alpha acid), for 60 min.
1 oz. Willamette hops (4.8% alpha acid), for 5 min.
1 oz. East Kent Goldings hops (5.5% alpha acid), for 5 min.
Wyeast 1098 (British ale)

Judging by the 1lb *ME to 1gal rule of thumb and the 2lb steeping grains = 1.2 DME rule of thumb discussed here, I was thinking of adding 2.9 lbs of ME post steeping of 1lb of grains (3.5 - .60), adding 2 oz Cascade, boil 50 minutes, add remaining hops, boil 10, remove from heat and add remaining *ME till disolved and cool.

I don't want to waste the hops as I did on my first brew (not added at the right time and added all the extract up front) but is this overkill in the other direction? I just absolutely love hops and just want to brew what I love.
Step by step...sounds good. :rockin:

I got an email you were trying to PM me...I need to delete some PMs first...;)
 
Scimmia said:
haha, no, I appreciate your insight, and taking time to help a newbie get everything figured out (hmm, I should probably spend more time brewing and less time reading, though:D)
No, actually, reading is probably the most important part...you should understand the "what to do" as well as "why you do it". More importantly, "what happens" "when" you fail to do the "what" explains the "why"...kind of... :D

Look at it this way...there's no loss of $$$ spent reading.

I'll be brewing again on Sat or Sun if you want to set up a session. Either day is good by me. Let me know if those days are good. I'm open.

I can't do it Turkey Day weekend (a 4 day which I'll miss) as I am going to Korea for a couple of weeks.
 
homebrewer_99 said:
Very true. Steeping extracts around 40%, so with 2 lbs that'll be 80% - for 1 gal of water. Sometimes I will reduce my steeping water to 3/4 gal and sparge with the same bringing it to 1.5 where I usually start.

It really depends (on my mood at the time) and the recipe, but at 2 gals of water I will also add 1 lb DME to try to get it near a 1.040 gravity. :D

NOTE: I didn't right down EVERY step I do...:eek:...:D

I don't want to pick nits here, but I've never heard that about steeping. While I've always suspected that steeping grains extracts fermentables most of the literature discounts that. Palmer's site does list some empirical data about fermentables extracted in steeping, but it really is minimal. So the question I have is what type of grains are you steeping? 2 pounds seems like a lot for specialty grains, so I'm guessing you're steeping some base malt which probably would allow you to extract some fermentables.

All that aside, I really like your procedures and think they would be useful. As I said, I think a 1.5 gallon boil would boil quicker and better and it would certainly be easier/quicker to cool. I also like the hint about using clothespins to attach a nylon strainer to your bucket. Thanks for the tips. They'll sure make my brew day go better.
 
No, go ahead pick my nit!! :D

Go to Recipator: http://hbd.org/recipator/ Their default for steeping 40%.

I've been an off/on instructor most of my life so I am well aware that if you are taught wrong you teach wrong...:D, but that's what I based my calculations on.

As for my grains...whatever I have on hand for the recipe is what I use. If the recipe calls for a Belgium Munich malt and I have another Munich malt I'll use it. Mostly I use a Briess 2-row Pale Malt (grain).

So, are you really on the western side of Pike's Peak? I've been to the Springs seveal times. My wife says she won't go back. Last time we were there (with my mother) she, my wife, lost a gall bladder and my mom dies 6 months later...that's all true except for my wife not wanting to go back.
 
homebrewer_99 said:
I'll be brewing again on Sat or Sun if you want to set up a session. Either day is good by me. Let me know if those days are good. I'm open.

I can't do it Turkey Day weekend (a 4 day which I'll miss) as I am going to Korea for a couple of weeks.

I'm still trying to figure my weekend out. A friend from college is coming down sometime, but I'm not sure when yet (probably Sunday), and I've got a batch to bottle. :D I MAY be free sometime on Saturday, but I can't really set up any plans until I get a commitment from my buddy. :(

Then I'm gone over Thanksgiving, too, and I haven't even thought about anything after that yet. ;)
 
homebrewer_99 said:
So, are you really on the western side of Pike's Peak? I've been to the Springs seveal times. My wife says she won't go back. Last time we were there (with my mother) she, my wife, lost a gall bladder and my mom dies 6 months later...that's all true except for my wife not wanting to go back.

Yep, I sure am. As the crow flies I'm about 10 miles from the Springs, but I've got to go around Pikes Peak to get there so it's about 25 miles. And I've been to the Quad Cities a few times. Needless to say I went to school at Iowa State. Many of my ex-in-laws are from that part of Iowa. If you can talk your wife into coming out this way again, look me up. We can share a brew.
 
IowaStateFan said:
Yep, I sure am. As the crow flies I'm about 10 miles from the Springs, but I've got to go around Pikes Peak to get there so it's about 25 miles. And I've been to the Quad Cities a few times. Needless to say I went to school at Iowa State. Many of my ex-in-laws are from that part of Iowa. If you can talk your wife into coming out this way again, look me up. We can share a brew.
Will do...:mug:
I have an old room mate out there that works for the Space Command. We had a few beers last time I was there.
 
IowaStateFan said:
Yep, I sure am. As the crow flies I'm about 10 miles from the Springs, but I've got to go around Pikes Peak to get there so it's about 25 miles. And I've been to the Quad Cities a few times. Needless to say I went to school at Iowa State. Many of my ex-in-laws are from that part of Iowa. If you can talk your wife into coming out this way again, look me up. We can share a brew.

Hey, Colorado Guy!

I'm in Western Littleton, about five miles as the crow flies from Red Rocks Ampitheater.

I actually have something to add to this discussion, too. I decided for my most recent brew (I've been at it a while, but new to HBT) to go for a short, full-volume boil with almost all of the DME added late. My IPA had 1.5 lb of steeping grains (1 lb of vienna and 1/2 lb Crystal), and 7 lbs of light DME.

I did a half-hour boil of the liquor from the steeping grains, all the water, and 1 lb of malt, along with 1 oz of Chinook (16.8%aa). I added the remaining 6 lb of light DME, and 1/2 oz of Cascades (6%aa) with 15 minutes left, and another 1/2 oz of Cascades at flameout.

BeerSmith predicted 65.7 IBU for this short boil and hop schedule, and after tasting the wort, I'll believe it.

Anyhow, the whole mess is bubbling away happily in primary. I'll try to remember to report back after tasting.
 
I was discussing this very same (original) question around the kettle with Gedvondur today--a lot of the recipes in the BYO magazine we picked up called for late additions, and we were unsure why. We *do* know that out pot is less than perfect and tends to scorch, and a lot of our brews come out dark for that reason. We have had better luck with scorching by pulling the kettle off the fire before adding DME, but it still isn't right.

What I'm concluding is that there may not be any sense to many recipes that call for early addition, and we can save some coin on hops by adding the extract late. One of the links I saw off the thread (http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s298/keithnaps/hoputil.jpg) calls for increasing hop utilization all the way to 1.000 SG, which contradicts the 1 lb/gal (1.040 SG) = 30% rule. What I'm seeing may just be an effect of dude's setup, though.

I am depressed to learn that the VCCA we were brewing (2 gal of steep water, 1 gal sparge water) only provided 16% efficiency on our bittering hops :(, made worse now that Cascades are getting so expensive and hard to find.

Anyway, thanks a *lot* for all those who posted here. This is one of the best threads I've read on the whole forum.
 
I finally played around with late addition of extract...

I put 1/2 lb of DME in at beginning of the boil, use the same bittering hops additions I would normally use. This is a steam beer recipe - extract 5gal boil. Then added the rest of the DME with 15 mins left in 60 min boil.

The finished beer was WAY hoppier than I expected - approaching IPA qualities. This basically taught me the hard way that hop utilization was higher with late extract addition... a little disappointed in that result. I still finished the keg, obviously... I do like hops, just not what I was expecting for this beer.
 
I have used this method for about a year with very good luck. It can keep the color down, if you add a lite LME. I like to use Alexander's Pale as it does not seem to bring that much extra flavor to the party.

For me, the real advantage is in the increase in fermentables without any major color or flavor offset.
 
I've been reading about halving the malt extract rates for early and late boil, and it seems like a winner. I think i'll try this for my next batch...make the backbone of the beer with half malt and all the bittering hops, and then finish it with flavor, aroma, and the other half of the malt extract.
 
vav said:
I've been reading about halving the malt extract rates for early and late boil, and it seems like a winner. I think i'll try this for my next batch...make the backbone of the beer with half malt and all the bittering hops, and then finish it with flavor, aroma, and the other half of the malt extract.

Well, that's fine. Just keep in mind that your hops utilization will greatly increase. As an example, when I did this for the first time, my Dead Guy clone tasted twice as bitter to me. It was still good- but unexpected for a not-bitter beer! Sure enough, when I bought some brewing software, I found out that it went from 15.5IBUs to 30.5 IBUS!

So, I'd suggest either running it through some brewing software (or post the recipe and ask one of us to do it, if you don't have the software) or be aware that you may have some unexpected bitterness. It's ok if you're making a higher IBU beer anyway- but for a malty beer or a lighter beer it might not be what you were hoping for.
 
YooperBrew said:
Well, that's fine. Just keep in mind that your hops utilization will greatly increase. As an example, when I did this for the first time, my Dead Guy clone tasted twice as bitter to me. It was still good- but unexpected for a not-bitter beer! Sure enough, when I bought some brewing software, I found out that it went from 15.5IBUs to 30.5 IBUS!

So, I'd suggest either running it through some brewing software (or post the recipe and ask one of us to do it, if you don't have the software) or be aware that you may have some unexpected bitterness. It's ok if you're making a higher IBU beer anyway- but for a malty beer or a lighter beer it might not be what you were hoping for.

Thanks for the suggestion, i'll make sure to check!
 
YooperBrew said:
Well, that's fine. Just keep in mind that your hops utilization will greatly increase. As an example, when I did this for the first time, my Dead Guy clone tasted twice as bitter to me. It was still good- but unexpected for a not-bitter beer! Sure enough, when I bought some brewing software, I found out that it went from 15.5IBUs to 30.5 IBUS!

So, I'd suggest either running it through some brewing software (or post the recipe and ask one of us to do it, if you don't have the software) or be aware that you may have some unexpected bitterness. It's ok if you're making a higher IBU beer anyway- but for a malty beer or a lighter beer it might not be what you were hoping for.

Hah! I just downloaded the BeerSmith trial and decided to put in my DIPA I did over the weekend for kicks (thanks jvh621 for your help) using a late DME addition as per this thread. Here are my additions:

5gal w/ 2 gal boil

.5 # Carapils
.5 # Victory
.5 # Crystal 60L

2# Light DME 60 (took off the flame to mix it down)
1oz Chinook 60min
1oz Chinook 40min
1oz Amarillo 30min
1oz Amarillo 20min
4 # Light DME 10min (took off the flame to mix it down)
1oz Cascade 10min
1oz Cascade 5min
1oz Cascade @ flameout

125.5 IBU according to BeerSmith :rockin:

I'm about as much of a hop head as you can get (I hunt down the 100+ IBU beers weekly to see if I can send my tongue packin' but it keeps asking for more)

:ban:

The best thing is I now know how to get a 150+ IBU beer that will hit 7.5 to 8.0 ABV. I'm a happy man! This forum is such a great resource and I'm so very thankful for all the patient folks who take the time to share wisdom such as this thread.
 
gwood said:
The best thing is I now know how to get a 150+ IBU beer that will hit 7.5 to 8.0 ABV.

There is a limit to the solubility of the iso alpha acids in hops. I've heard it's in the 100-120 IBU range.

You can still get more flavor and aroma from late additions/dry hopping, but you won't get any more bitterness.
 
im brewing a saison as we speak, partial mash w/ LME (doh!).. looks like il give this late extract method a try - im gonna do the 50/50,half at boil, half at 15 left in the boil in order to prevent any changes to the hop utilization. rather not complicate things ;)

anyway i cant wait until im done with the last 2 partial mash kits i have left from austinhomebrew, so i can start doing some 3 gallon all grain! AG is looking better each day!

thanks for the tips! - heard about this technique a while ago, may as well give it a go!

p.s. is their a technique where you mash with dme (and/or lme?) forget where i heard it, but maybe from the guys at basicbrewing.com
 
I've done this for a number of lighter colored beers. It can only help. It never hurts.
 
I don't know if this is a 180.... opinion-wise :confused:

:mug:

Just FYI, if it hasn't been pointed out before in this thread....This
link is an mp3 of a discussion with someone at Briess about how
the extracts are made:

http://www.basicbrewing.com/radio/mp3/bbr08-18-05.mp3

The malt extract is boiled to get the hot break material out first.
This makes sense, because I've never seen cloudy lme even though
it's super concentrated. After it's boiled, it is then concentrated
in a partial vacuum at moderate temperature to remove most of the
water.

Ray
 
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