Everything I make stalls

[kaminsknator]

In all the situations below I used the shake method for oxygenation. Fermentation temperatures range from 65-69F.
I made the deceptions stout: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/deception-cream-stout.141483/ I didn't write down the mash temperature but I followed the recipe. Hit the OG exactly at 1.058. I pitch a healthy starter of Denny's Favorite Wyeast 1450 and a month goes by but it stops at 1.032. I try adding a packet of us-05 and nothing works. My buddy brewed an IPA on his setup and when that finished I pitched this onto that yeast cake but I left it on the hops too long or something because it has a vegetal/spicy note on the finish but it got down to a FG of 1.012.

I also tried: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/sparkling-hard-water-recipe.632001/ following the recipe and using S-33 then when it halted at 1.020 I added a packet US-05 and daily nutrient additions but that didn't do anything.

I decided to remake the deception stout because I really wanted to try what the recipe actually was. So I repeat the steps and make the beer again mashed a touch high at 158F and pitched a starter of 1450 again. Vigorous fermentation as expected then falls flat again right at 1.030. I tried getting another smack pack of yeast and building another big starter because the previous yeast was 3 months old so I thought it was bad. There was no change in the FG a week later. I did a fast fermentation test and it got down to the 1.010 range.

Assuming I needed a big yeast cake to dump this beer on top of I made a brown ale https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/nut-brown-ag.30187/ and again hit the OG. Now same thing the beer has halted fermentation at 1.020. I used denny's favorite again, mostly because I've been listening to the experimental brewing podcast and it gets brought up so often I wanted to keep trying it. For this batch I made sure my mash temp held constant at 152-154. I did a long pour into the carboy to add extra oxygenation as well as shaking the carboy.

What the heck is going on! The IPA I brewed with my buddy on his system turned out fine. This is making me assume that there is something I'm missing in the process on my end. Talking with the homebrew shop guy, he doesn't have any ideas either.

 

[McKnuckle]

I read the subject and immediately thought: "Here's another example of someone taking FG readings with a refractometer, and not correcting for the presence of alcohol."

True? If so, your beers all attenuated fine...

If not, then my bad, back to the thread.

 

[kaminsknator]

I read the subject and immediately thought: "Here's another example of someone taking FG readings with a refractometer, and not correcting for the presence of alcohol."

Sadly I'm using a hydrometer and I tested it in water at it reads 1.000. The FFT sample also read fine.

 

[McKnuckle]

Bummer. Well then... major things that affect attenuation are yeast health and pitch rate, fermentation temperature and time, and mash temperature.

You sound like you're aware of these factors. Given decent yeast, plenty of time, and normal ferm temps, the mash temp can have a major effect if it pushes over 160. This can happen even if the departure over 160 is just a few minutes.

 

[DVCNick]

I don't know that this is going to solve your problem but I'll throw it out there:

Oxygenating with bottled oxygen and a stone for a couple minutes has been the one single thing I've noticed that makes my fermentations go bonkers. Since this step is kind of a pain and also looks like a big sanitation risk to me, I haven't always done it.

Added yeast nutrient.. I can't tell a difference. Splash on the way into the fermenter... can't tell a difference. But for me the bottled oxygen really makes it take off. This weekend I brewed Saturday morning, pitched at about midnight Saturday night, and both carboys (one gallon headspace) started blowing off at about 9PM Sunday.

Without the bottled oxygen, mine still have all went to a very reasonable final gravity; it just takes longer. Sometimes a lot longer. Usually I'm within zero to three points higher than the estimated FG by the time I package it.

 

[kaminsknator]

Bummer. Well then... major things that affect attenuation are yeast health and pitch rate, fermentation temperature and time, and mash temperature.

You sound like you're aware of these factors. Given decent yeast, plenty of time, and normal ferm temps, the mash temp can have a major effect if it pushes over 160. This can happen even if the departure over 160 is just a few minutes.

I haven't calibrated my thermometer so it is possible. On the first batch of deceptions stout it is highly likely that it got over 160. Possible on second batch as well since the thermometer was hovering around 158ish. The brown ale I was much more concerned and stayed at 152 but the thermometer isn't calibrated. I'll order a well reviewed electric pen thermometer and check this data point.

I don't know that this is going to solve your problem but I'll throw it out there:

Oxygenating with bottled oxygen and a stone for a couple minutes has been the one single thing I've noticed that makes my fermentations go bonkers. Since this step is kind of a pain and also looks like a big sanitation risk to me, I haven't always done it.

Added yeast nutrient.. I can't tell a difference. Splash on the way into the fermenter... can't tell a difference. But for me the bottled oxygen really makes it take off. This weekend I brewed Saturday morning, pitched at about midnight Saturday night, and both carboys (one gallon headspace) started blowing off at about 9PM Sunday.

Without the bottled oxygen, mine still have all went to a very reasonable final gravity; it just takes longer. Sometimes a lot longer. Usually I'm within zero to three points higher than the estimated FG by the time I package it.

I'm not above buying a wand and oxygen stone if that is the issue. I've been shaking the crap out of it hoping that would be sufficient. If that's all that is left from my trouble shooting I'll be putting the order in.

 

[Deadalus]

I used to use a funnel to filter out the hops going into my carboys. It had a pretty tight mesh and I always felt I got decent aeration that way. Since switching to a plate chiller, I don't go that route but now add oxygen inline with a stone. I almost never had stuck fermentation with using the funnel. Sometimes slow if I was low in the fermentation temperature range. I did have luck with pitching yeast nutrient the one time I had a stuck fermentation with a pils.

What does the fermentation look like when it starts going (what are you fermenting in)? When the fermentation kicks in, are you seeing a few degrees rise in temperature? Have you tried a little yeast nutrient in your starter? I forget this sometimes. What temp is your yeast starter at while stepping up?

 

[McKnuckle]

It's easy to pick apart people's issues and come up with every best practice imaginable in order to solve their problems. But the reality is that yeast are very stubborn, and they pretty much want to keep fermenting unless there is a significant biological or environmental handicap.

I don't own an O2 stone and I'm about 115 batches into my homebrewing journey. I've only once had a notably retarded attenuation, from 1.049 down to 1.020 (59%). And that was because my mash headed into 161-162F territory for a few minutes, plus I used an English strain with only moderate attenuative qualities to begin with.

Other than gross errors in pitch, health, or cold ferm temps, yeast will do their thing up to the limit of what's fermentable in the wort. Excessively high mash temps will limit what's fermentable.

 

[eric19312]

It is interesting that both your stouts were apparantly able to be fermented down to target using the big IPA yeast cake on attempt 1 and the fast ferment test on attempt 2. I think this tends to argue against mashing too high. [but maybe you should explain what you did for that fast ferment test]

That said a wild yeast or bacterial contamination could also explain stalling at 1.030 and then working its way down over time.

The oxygenation issue might be a culprit but a good shake combined with fresh yeast and a big starter should of done better than 1.030...

How did the starter respond? Did you get the Wyeast from same vendor? Maybe it was not handled well by them or on it's way to you. In trouble shooting your process might want to get gravity readings on your starter next time around.

 

[kaminsknator]

Thanks for the help so far!

What does the fermentation look like when it starts going (what are you fermenting in)? When the fermentation kicks in, are you seeing a few degrees rise in temperature? Have you tried a little yeast nutrient in your starter? I forget this sometimes. What temp is your yeast starter at while stepping up?

I only have a sticker on the side of the carboy so thats as accurate as I can get for temperature. I haven't monitored the temperature but it usually develops a nice krausen and gets me hopeful before it falls flat. On the starter I cool the wort after boiling usually in the fridge overnight. I pitch the yeast into that and have kept track of the gravity before and after to make sure the yeast is working hard. The starter in an 18 hour period dropped from 1.040 to 1.01 and in one sample I kept longer it got nearly 1.000.

Other than gross errors in pitch, health, or cold ferm temps, yeast will do their thing up to the limit of what's fermentable in the wort. Excessively high mash temps will limit what's fermentable.

Guess I really need to put that order in and check the thermometers not sure what else but as pointed out below the FFT yield expected gravity and pitching on the yeast cake actually finished 10 points lower than it was suppose to.

It is interesting that both your stouts were apparantly able to be fermented down to target using the big IPA yeast cake on attempt 1 and the fast ferment test on attempt 2. I think this tends to argue against mashing too high. [but maybe you should explain what you did for that fast ferment test]

That said a wild yeast or bacterial contamination could also explain stalling at 1.030 and then working its way down over time.

The oxygenation issue might be a culprit but a good shake combined with fresh yeast and a big starter should of done better than 1.030...

How did the starter respond? Did you get the Wyeast from same vendor? Maybe it was not handled well by them or on it's way to you. In trouble shooting your process might want to get gravity readings on your starter next time around.

My fast fermentation test was to pull out enough wort from the carboy for two hydrometer samples and decant the liquid off a starter. I then pitched the samples onto the decanted yeast and observed the FG the next day and found it had attenuated below what the recipe calls for. I haven't seen any movement in the FG over a month period in two of the cases and two weeks on the latest batch.
I got the second package of Wyeast from the same vendor but it was only a few weeks old. I went through the same though process and measured the gravity: The starter in an 18 hour period dropped from 1.040 to 1.01 and in one sample I kept longer it got nearly 1.000.

 

[eric19312]

Your yeast sounds ok and that fermentation test sounds reasonable.

What is your fermentation temperature control like? I am thinking maybe your fermenter got too cold and crashed your yeast early. I don't use that yeast but my standard fermentation scheme is to start at middle of the yeast's ideal range and then bump it up to near the top of the ideal range once fermentation slows down. With reharvested US-05 I start at 65-68 and bump it to 70-72 at end of fermentation to keep it going. This is controlling temperature of the fermenting beer not temperature of the room the fermentor is in.

Anyway just a thought...maybe there is something finicky about that yeast. I found this thread describing similar issues another newish brewer was having with the yeast: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/stuck-fermentation-dennys-favorite-50.634937/

@Denny commented on his preferred temperature for the yeast in this thread on a different website:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=18098.0

 

[bracconiere]

there's always gluco...

 

[Positronic_Matrix]

Hit it with some Beano. At worst the beer is on the dry side.

 

[bracconiere]

Hit it with some Beano. At worst the beer is on the dry side.

with a stout, it would be more like dry red wine....

 

[Positronic_Matrix]

with a stout, it would be more like dry red wine....

Luscious. Let the experiment begin.

 

[bracconiere]

Luscious. Let the experiment begin.

too true, i think people would be surprised how much flavor and body a light stout has....or even amber....

 

[Bassman2003]

At this point, all you can do is try to use a different thermometer, clean and sanitize everything, make sure your fermentation temps are stable next brew and try some enhanced oxygenation. Yeast wants to make beer unless something gets in its way. You just need to find out what is getting in its way.

 

[Deadalus]

When you make your starters, do you use a stir plate? The attached article mentions the benefits of oxygen on the yeast in the Q&A. It also gives a little bit of guidance on yeast starter temps. It doesn't mention specific effects of low temperatures on starters but I wonder if you are getting your starter temps back up to room temp after pulling from the fridge? That's a constant in your protocol. Also, are you pulling the yeast itself out of the fridge and just pitching or do you set it out. I don't know if the lower temps would predispose the yeast to the problem you are having though or if the lower temps is a significant issue.

 

[dmtaylor]

Calibrate your mash thermometer in both ice water and in boiling water adjusted for your elevation above sea level (water boils at different temperatures). Until that happens there is little use in discussing anything else.

 

[Saunassa]

Are you fermenting in the dark or covered with a dark shirt and towel to protect from light? May seem like a dumb question but some don't know to do that. Since hatusingbyour buddies equipment worked out what are you using to clean and sanitize your brew pots and lines?
I had an Amber ale come out strange, found my digital thermometer had went wonky and was off ten degrees.

 

[kaminsknator]

What is your fermentation temperature control like? I am thinking maybe your fermenter got too cold and crashed your yeast early. I don't use that yeast but my standard fermentation scheme is to start at middle of the yeast's ideal range and then bump it up to near the top of the ideal range once fermentation slows down. With reharvested US-05 I start at 65-68 and bump it to 70-72 at end of fermentation to keep it going. This is controlling temperature of the fermenting beer not temperature of the room the fermentor is in.

Anyway just a thought...maybe there is something finicky about that yeast. I found this thread describing similar issues another newish brewer was having with the yeast: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/stuck-fermentation-dennys-favorite-50.634937/

@Denny commented on his preferred temperature for the yeast in this thread on a different website:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=18098.0

I don't have any fermentation control. It's 100% possible that this happened over and over and over again. I have a smart thermostat that adjusts the temperature if I'm not home or when I'm sleeping. I'm not doing anything to help regulate the temperature of the carboy. So on a given day the ambient temperature can swing from 64 to 69 (plus or minus a few i'm sure) at least twice a day. Also thanks for finding that information on fermentation temperatures as others experience. I have been swirling the carboy the past few days and have noticed some slight bubbles coming up but haven't taken a new sample. This thought makes complete sense. Guess I need to track down a mini fridge and convert it to a fermentation chamber.

Hit it with some Beano. At worst the beer is on the dry side.

Interesting. Quick google search led to a brulosophy article that was quite informative. I guess if it comes down to it I just might.

When you make your starters, do you use a stir plate? Also, are you pulling the yeast itself out of the fridge and just pitching or do you set it out. I don't know if the lower temps would predispose the yeast to the problem you are having though or if the lower temps is a significant issue.

I make the starters on a stir plate then cold crash in the fridge and decant the wort off the yeast. I usually just pitch that but don't give it much of a chance of warming up. I'll try that in the future.

Are you fermenting in the dark or covered with a dark shirt and towel to protect from light? May seem like a dumb question but some don't know to do that. Since hatusingbyour buddies equipment worked out what are you using to clean and sanitize your brew pots and lines?
I had an Amber ale come out strange, found my digital thermometer had went wonky and was off ten degrees.

I'm not using anything for light avoidance. Thank you for highlighting that I'll take the necessary steps to correct that. I use star san for sanitation and pbw if its extra stubborn.

 

[Denny]

When you make your starters, do you use a stir plate? The attached article mentions the benefits of oxygen on the yeast in the Q&A. It also gives a little bit of guidance on yeast starter temps. It doesn't mention specific effects of low temperatures on starters but I wonder if you are getting your starter temps back up to room temp after pulling from the fridge? That's a constant in your protocol. Also, are you pulling the yeast itself out of the fridge and just pitching or do you set it out. I don't know if the lower temps would predispose the yeast to the problem you are having though or if the lower temps is a significant issue.

I used a stir plate for many years. Then I tried this and found I didn't need one at all. Now I don't even know where my stir plate is.

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/denny/old-dognew-tricks

 

[kaminsknator]

I used a stir plate for many years. Then I tried this and found I didn't need one at all. Now I don't even know where my stir plate is.

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/denny/old-dognew-tricks

Thanks for chiming in! Just as an aside I'm in episode 30 and just discovered your podcast last month slowly making my way through it. I'll consider the SNS although I did just invest in a 5L flask.

 

[Deadalus]

I used a stir plate for many years. Then I tried this and found I didn't need one at all. Now I don't even know where my stir plate is.

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/denny/old-dognew-tricks

So you've made 3 changes as described in your link:
1. Lowered your starter volume.
2. Not used stir plate.
3. Pitched around high krausen of the starter.

Without isolating all 3, hard to say what worked or didn't.

The article I linked is a Q & A with three individuals from Wyeast and Whit Labs with credentials listed. I am not a microbiologist nor do I play one on TV. I was making my own slants a little over 20 years ago but I don't do that anymore. I also took about a 15 year hiatus from homebrewing.

Personally, my opinion is to pitch at high krausen and that's what I aim for. If I decide not to brew, by the next weekend the yeast will have settled out. I don't put them in the fridge which probably will help some. My simplistic reasoning for high krausen is the yeasties are working give them the big job. I do seem to get faster starts with high krausen but if I wait a week that's longer than the other optimum suggested by letting the yeast drop out.

I usually don't pitch a full 2 liter starter as I snag about 300-400 ml to store in 2 bottles. I cap these and store in my keezer. Sometimes 1 or 2 extra even. I use these for later starts rather than deal with slants. I don't feel there is a lot of oxygen in a 2l flask with 2l of wort anyway. I could open the top but don't always remember to.

The interviewees suggest shaking every 2 hours produces 2x the number of cells and that the stir plate produces 40% more than shaking. I find it easier to just keep track of the stir bar rather than remembering to shake every two hours, if you are making a starter anyway. I use a cell phone car vent magnet or another stir bar to not lose the stir bar in the wort or down the drain. Buy the pack of stir bars is my advice!

I mentioned temperature to the OP because my basement has been cold and I've noticed perhaps some sluggishness over the winter. But I have also missed my brew days a couple times as well as just started using temperature controls on my ales in the basement vs keeping them upstairs. Lots of different potential factors though go into a batch and isolating one or more causes is sometimes difficult, hence these discussions!

 

[Denny]

So you've made 3 changes as described in your link:
1. Lowered your starter volume.
2. Not used stir plate.
3. Pitched around high krausen of the starter.

Without isolating all 3, hard to say what worked or didn't.

The article I linked is a Q & A with three individuals from Wyeast and Whit Labs with credentials listed. I am not a microbiologist nor do I play one on TV. I was making my own slants a little over 20 years ago but I don't do that anymore. I also took about a 15 year hiatus from homebrewing.

Personally, my opinion is to pitch at high krausen and that's what I aim for. If I decide not to brew, by the next weekend the yeast will have settled out. I don't put them in the fridge which probably will help some. My simplistic reasoning for high krausen is the yeasties are working give them the big job. I do seem to get faster starts with high krausen but if I wait a week that's longer than the other optimum suggested by letting the yeast drop out.

I usually don't pitch a full 2 liter starter as I snag about 300-400 ml to store in 2 bottles. I cap these and store in my keezer. Sometimes 1 or 2 extra even. I use these for later starts rather than deal with slants. I don't feel there is a lot of oxygen in a 2l flask with 2l of wort anyway. I could open the top but don't always remember to.

The interviewees suggest shaking every 2 hours produces 2x the number of cells and that the stir plate produces 40% more than shaking. I find it easier to just keep track of the stir bar rather than remembering to shake every two hours, if you are making a starter anyway. I use a cell phone car vent magnet or another stir bar to not lose the stir bar in the wort or down the drain. Buy the pack of stir bars is my advice!

I mentioned temperature to the OP because my basement has been cold and I've noticed perhaps some sluggishness over the winter. But I have also missed my brew days a couple times as well as just started using temperature controls on my ales in the basement vs keeping them upstairs. Lots of different potential factors though go into a batch and isolating one or more causes is sometimes difficult, hence these discussions!

I actually discussed my starter method with Chris White. He said "That's great! Homebrewers are to hung up on numbers".

 

[Ridenour64]

I was having trouble hitting final gravity as well. I tested my analog thermometer I was using for my mash and it was drastically off. I was mashing too high. I bought a thermopen and have not missed my FG since. I’m not saying you need a thermopen, but I agree that your first step should be to make sure your mash temperature is accurate. I’m willing to bet this is the issue

As other mentioned, I do find it odd that the same wort will ferment further when doing a fermentation test or being pitched onto a different yeast cake.

I do not oxygenate at all other than transferring to my fermenter. I do make starters, but no stir plate is used, I just swirl a few times a day.

 

[Deadalus]

I actually discussed my starter method with Chris White. He said "That's great! Homebrewers are to hung up on numbers".

I think it's great that it works for you too! Just hard to say based on your link what factor(s) may have been important in your changes, but thanks for the link. Since the OP has let us know he uses a stir plate, there probably wasn't an issue of low cell counts due to lack of oxygen. Switching to shaking won't solve the problem, plus its more work anyway to come back and shake repeatedly vs dropping a stir bar in and leaving it.

Moving along, the OP's description of the ambient temperature could be a lead. Kaminsknator you mentioned not monitoring the temperature but do have a smart thermostat with temps ranging from 64-69. So where's your thermostat, where's your fermentation vessel, what kind of heat? Maybe the daily fluctuations are stressing the yeast and/or perhaps it's dropping lower that you think. Before I started using a heat pad for temperature control on my ales, I liked to check on the carboy early morning and see where the temps were at. I've got zoned heat with multiple thermostats which I turn down similar to yours using programmable thermostats. With radiators and a woodstove, it was a bit challenging to find a good spot for the carboy(s). Too close to the woodstove, too hot, farther away, I needed to be nearer the radiators but the carboy might get too cold before the radiator kicked on, depended on how well the woodstove was loaded before bed. Plus with a really active fermentation the internal heat would kick up the temps but then when that stops I might have to move it some. It was a bit of a rollercoaster.

 

[Denny]

I think it's great that it works for you too! Just hard to say based on your link what factor(s) may have been important in your changes, but thanks for the link. Since the OP has let us know he uses a stir plate, there probably wasn't an issue of low cell counts due to lack of oxygen. Switching to shaking won't solve the problem, plus its more work anyway to come back and shake repeatedly vs dropping a stir bar in and leaving it.

Moving along, the OP's description of the ambient temperature could be a lead. Kaminsknator you mentioned not monitoring the temperature but do have a smart thermostat with temps ranging from 64-69. So where's your thermostat, where's your fermentation vessel, what kind of heat? Maybe the daily fluctuations are stressing the yeast and/or perhaps it's dropping lower that you think. Before I started using a heat pad for temperature control on my ales, I liked to check on the carboy early morning and see where the temps were at. I've got zoned heat with multiple thermostats which I turn down similar to yours using programmable thermostats. With radiators and a woodstove, it was a bit challenging to find a good spot for the carboy(s). Too close to the woodstove, too hot, farther away, I needed to be nearer the radiators but the carboy might get too cold before the radiator kicked on, depended on how well the woodstove was loaded before bed. Plus with a really active fermentation the internal heat would kick up the temps but then when that stops I might have to move it some. It was a bit of a rollercoaster.

Per Chris' comment, you need to stop thinking in terms of cell counts. If you actually read the article I linked, you'd know that you don't repeatedly shake.

 

[Deadalus]

Per Chris' comment, you need to stop thinking in terms of cell counts. If you actually read the article I linked, you'd know that you don't repeatedly shake.

All you reported from Chris was that he said that's great and he thinks homebrewers rely on numbers too much. An ambiguous statement in regard to your methods, as well as a conversation not recorded or heard by me. You're right you only mentioned shaking once which is still an additional trip back to the starter. Plus no real instructions from you on when that might be helpful. The article I posted mentions every 2 hours but since the stir plate exceeds that and you don't follow that anyway, your counts may be less. Sorry to use numbers and facts, that's how science works. Like I said you changed three variables without isolating any single factor and are apparently attempting to present that as gospel. Great that it works for you. I'm not convinced but if you have some additional information of a more rigorous nature maybe start another thread? I've gotten to high krausen in less time than 17 hours (sorry for the number, wait that's a number you used?) but I am not going to necessarily attribute it to my methods which include using a stir plate. Could have been an external factor.

Can you help the OP or are you just here to preach your method?

 

[eric19312]

That's an interesting thread over at AHA. There were 30 pages of chatter and anecdotal experience with this new technique but I couldn't find any sort of side by side evaluation. Gonna leave it to Brulosophy to do that?

 

[Denny]

All you reported from Chris was that he said that's great and he thinks homebrewers rely on numbers too much. An ambiguous statement in regard to your methods, as well as a conversation not recorded or heard by me. You're right you only mentioned shaking once which is still an additional trip back to the starter. Plus no real instructions from you on when that might be helpful. The article I posted mentions every 2 hours but since the stir plate exceeds that and you don't follow that anyway, your counts may be less. Sorry to use numbers and facts, that's how science works. Like I said you changed three variables without isolating any single factor and are apparently attempting to present that as gospel. Great that it works for you. I'm not convinced but if you have some additional information of a more rigorous nature maybe start another thread? I've gotten to high krausen in less time than 17 hours (sorry for the number, wait that's a number you used?) but I am not going to necessarily attribute it to my methods which include using a stir plate. Could have been an external factor.

Can you help the OP or are you just here to preach your method?

If you had been in a bar in Australia last October, you would have heard what everyone else heard. So I assume you don't take any brewing advice you haven't personally heard? You shake the starter before you add the yeast...no additional shaking after that. I'm done.

 

[Denny]

That's an interesting thread over at AHA. There were 30 pages of chatter and anecdotal experience with this new technique but I couldn't find any sort of side by side evaluation. Gonna leave it to Brulosophy to do that?

No, I leave it to homebrewers to try it and see for themselves. Which is exactly what I did.

 

[Deadalus]

If you had been in a bar in Australia last October, you would have heard what everyone else heard. So I assume you don't take any brewing advice you haven't personally heard? You shake the starter before you add the yeast...no additional shaking after that. I'm done.

I'm a little leery about taking strangers' advice in foreign bars. YMMV. I also am only weakly convinced by hearsay

I bet I save 6 calories not shaking the flask and dropping in the stir bar. Sorry about the number and mentioning the stir bar.

It would of been nice if you could have helped the OP some. All you did was jump on the thread when you saw the words stir plate, (sorry again) which wasn't the issue. Do you think the fluctuating temperatures could be the underlying problem? (Maybe you don't do temperatures because of the numbers thing?) The reported temps are mid-range for that denny's favorite yeast. Who's this denny character maybe he has some insight?

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Everything I make stalls

I shall toast to the fact you don't make airplanes.

Cheers, buddy!

 

[bracconiere]

I bet I save 6 calories not shaking the flask and dropping in the stir bar.

lol, i think most people here could use more calorie burn....i save about 500+ dumping gluco in my beer

 

[dmtaylor]

I have two more things to say, then I'm out of here.

1) My previous advice above has been completely ignored. Oh well I guess.

2) The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

 

[eric19312]

I have two more things to say, then I'm out of here.

1) My previous advice above has been completely ignored. Oh well I guess.

2) The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

I’m not disagreeing with your “all idiots” comment but I don’t think a small mash temperature difference causes a mid gravity wort to only hit 43% apparent attenuation when fermented with wy-1450 but reach 1.012 — 78% apparent attenuation in the other yeast and fast ferment tests.

We should be looking for a big problem, not something to tweak.

Also OP already said he would be getting a new thermometer soon.

 

[dmtaylor]

OP already said he would be getting a new thermometer soon.

Yeah but we need to know how far off his mash thermometer really was. If his thermometer was off by like 5-6 degrees and not just a "small difference", and he mashed too hot around 159 F or whatever, then all his beta amylase is bye-bye.

And then adding 0.5 lb lactose doesn't help either.

Also, I just noticed this, with respect to the S-33 batch... well... that yeast strain only attenuates to 61% on a good wort... but he had 100% simple sugar in there (yes with nutrients but even so), which likely PO'd the wimpiest yeast on Earth even more than eating regular wort. And then adding US-05 after fermentation is already complete doesn't do much if anything. Yeast doesn't like being thrown into alcohol. It prefers to start off in 0% alcohol wort.

Lots of "big problems" here, now that I took the time to review the stuff in more detail -- sorry I didn't bother until now, but now you have it.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Microbiologist/biochemist here and I just popped in to make a comment on this "new starter" method that has been mentioned. It is essentially a vitality starter and they work great - I have used them numerous times with new commercial yeast packets and harvested yeast. It is great way of priming the yeasts' metabolism and ensuring the we pitch healthy active yeast. However, to imply that we should not be "thinking in terms of cell counts" may be myopic and certainly requires some caution. If you are intending a one-time-use of a commercial packet of yeast that contains 100-200B cells, then knock your socks off with the simple starter method. But if you plan on harvesting some of your starter for future use, say 500 ml from a 1.5-2L starter, you may run into trouble. The method, particularly when we talk about not letting the culture reach full cell densities (i.e. using at high krausen), just doesn't promote enough cell growth (very little in fact) to build up the cell numbers to harvest. If you did, in the next generation you would be starting with notably fewer cells (in my example, as low as 1/4 but maybe 1/3, or optimistically 1/2, of what you started with), but perhaps not catastrophically low numbers. However, in the third generation there would be even fewer cells still, and so on.... Ultimately, in some generation, likely the third or fourth, very low cell counts could bite you in the ass. I'm not sure many people would argue that pitching 5-10B yeast cells into 5 gallons of 1.060 wort is going to produce an optimal product, even if the yeast was very healthy (kveik strains excepted). So, just some caution there for people like me who would like to stretch out the use of their yeast cultures.

Sorry to be off topic, it was just a bit of a weird discussion on those starters vs cell numbers.

 

[eric19312]

I’m curious about this different starter method but we should find a more appropriate thread or start a new one for that.