Every beer has the same off flavor

[h22lude]

Every single beer has this off flavor and I have done everything to fix it. No matter what I have done it is always there. I just can't pinpoint what the off flavor is. Sometimes it smells like apples and other times it smells like bandaids. I'm about done with brewing if I can't fix this.

I have a RO system with a TDS reading of less than 5. I also leave all the water out overnight. I called my local water department and they said they don't use chloramine. With AG I use Bru'n Water to get my water profile and mash pH.

I brew AG BIAB full volume mash with a CFC. Everything is cleaned with homemade PBW. I take my pump and valve apart each brew.

I either shake my bucket for 4 minutes or use pure O2. I use both dry and liquid yeast. I have even switched from a bucket to a carboy back to a new bucket.

I ferment in a fridge with a STC-1000.

This last batch was Janet's Brown Ale extract kit. I did extract to see if I would get the off flavor and it is there. My OG was a few points lower than I expected which I'm ok with. My FG was also a few points lower but it fermented out. I shook my bucket for over 4 minutes but I used US-05 which doesn't need as much O2 as liquid yeast so the 4 minutes should have been plenty of time. I even used 1.5 packets which I rehydrated. I pitch under 70°. I fermented at 65° for 5 days then slowly ramped it up to 69°. I left it for 2 weeks total. I then slowly chilled it down to 32° and added gelatin. That sat for 2 days. I just kegged it tonight. I pulled a sample right from the bucket and that off flavor is there. I honestly have no clue what else to do. I feel like my process is as good as it can get. What can I be looking at?

I guess this batch could just be green but from my experience, this off flavor has never gone away in any of my other beers that had it. The only thing I find odd about my batches are I never get a visible hot break. When I was using propane, I would get a ton of foam at the start of the boil. I would need to spray it down to keep it from boiling over. And the same when adding hops. Doesn't happen at all with my electric BIAB system. Wouldn't think that would matter but felt like I needed to mention it just to make sure I'm not missing anything.

 

[brewbama]

Take apart everything and soak it in a new cleaner like Brew Clean. Try a new broad spectrum Bactericide and Fungicide sanitizer too like San Step acid sanitizer. You may have a resistant bug to your normal cleaning/sanitation routine. Bleach Bomb comes to mind: everything in the bathtub and fill it with bleach and water.

You might try to go back and use your old system prior to the off flavor. See if that works.

 

[h22lude]

Take apart everything and soak it in a new cleaner like Brew Clean. Try a new broad spectrum Bactericide and Fungicide sanitizer too like San Step acid sanitizer. You may have a resistant bug to your normal cleaning/sanitation routine. Bleach Bomb comes to mind: everything in the bathtub and fill it with bleach and water.

You might try to go back and use your old system prior to the off flavor. See if that works.

I was using StarSan. I switched to Iodophor recently and nothing changed.

I originally thought it was a bacteria but my bucket is new and nothing else touches the beer besides all the hot side stuff (i.e. kettle). I boil in my kettle. Send boiling wort through my CFC. Chill right into my bucket and ferment. I wouldn't think any bacteria would grow on the hot side, would it?

I was thinking about using my old pot. I want to eliminate as many variables as possible so I may do another extract batch in my old pot. It is just a pot and propane burner. No valves or thermometers or sight gauges.

 

[flars]

Purchase RO water for your next brew. Your system may not be as efficient anymore. Least cost and simplest means to troubleshoot the problem.

 

[brewbama]

What about the valves on the kettle or the inside of the CFC? I dunno if they can survive in the hot side but I would eliminate all possibilities.

When I troubleshoot I go back to whatever I did and how I did it prior to the issue.

 

[h22lude]

Purchase RO water for your next brew. Your system may not be as efficient anymore. Least cost and simplest means to troubleshoot the problem.

It is a pretty new system and my TDS meter reads under 5.

What about the valves on the kettle or the inside of the CFC? I dunno if they can survive in the hot side but I would eliminate all possibilities.

When I troubleshoot I go back to whatever I did and how I did it prior to the issue.

Valves are taken apart (3 piece). Not sure about the inside of the CFC but it was happening before my CFC.

I'll try another extract batch on my old system to see if that helps

 

[kh54s10]

Have you always used your homemade PBW? If so try something different to make sure that is not the source.

Apple and Bandaid are caused by different things. It could be that you have one problem one time and a different one the next.

 

[h22lude]

Have you always used your homemade PBW? If so try something different to make sure that is not the source.

Apple and Bandaid are caused by different things. It could be that you have one problem one time and a different one the next.

No I just started using it about 3 weeks ago.

My nose isn't the best but I get both in all my beers. I could just be describing it terribily. My wife just said she smells Dimetapp.

 

[brewgar]

^^
I second the suggestion to try 100% purchased RO or distilled water. Water is THE common denominator for every beer you brew.

 

[h22lude]

^^
I second the suggestion to try 100% purchased RO or distilled water. Water is THE common denominator for every beer you brew.

Yeah I think I'll do that with my next batch. With a brand new RO system with under 5 TDS reading, I wouldn't think it would be the water but you never know.

 

[daveMN]

How are you controlling fermentation temps? Are you pitching warm then cooling down to fermentation temps? I was getting phenolics until I started cooling below my target fermentation temp and let the yeast raise the temp to target.

 

[brandonnys]

Do you use a plate chiller, by chance?

 

[day_trippr]

Cfc =/ pc

 

[h22lude]

How are you controlling fermentation temps? Are you pitching warm then cooling down to fermentation temps? I was getting phenolics until I started cooling below my target fermentation temp and let the yeast raise the temp to target.

I try to pitch right at fermentation temp. I use a STC-1000 to control temps with a fridge. Probe insulated against the bucket.

Do you use a plate chiller, by chance?

Cfc =/ pc

Correct. As day-trippr stated, I use a counter flow chiller.

 

[Dcpcooks]

What are you adding back to the RO water?

 

[bkboiler]

from what i understand the medicinal/band-aid flavor of dimetap is absolutely chlorophenol. try your exact same setup and pitch a campden tablet into your water before you start. sounds like you may need to slow down your water collection rate to 5min/gallon in the long run (to allow the activated charcoal stage in your RO system enough contact time to remove the chloramine).
http://beer-geeking.blogspot.com/2011/05/water-chlorine-chloramine-and.html?m=1

 

[day_trippr]

5 min/gallon? Yikes!
I can get around 20 gallons in 24 hours out of my RO system...

Cheers!

 

[h22lude]

What are you adding back to the RO water?

Whatever I need to get the water profile I'm looking for. Gypsum or CaCl usually.

from what i understand the medicinal/band-aid flavor of dimetap is absolutely chlorophenol. try your exact same setup and pitch a campden tablet into your water before you start. sounds like you may need to slow down your water collection rate to 5min/gallon in the long run (to allow the activated charcoal stage in your RO system enough contact time to remove the chloramine).
http://beer-geeking.blogspot.com/2011/05/water-chlorine-chloramine-and.html?m=1

My system doesn't come close to 5 min/gal. I'm close to 20 min/gal.

 

[HomeDrewBrew]

Ive been using my ro water for every brew now on since my tap water is harder than hard can be and even with ro i still add camden tab just to be safe.
Crush up half a tab and add to the water when heating up.

 

[h22lude]

I'm smelling and tasting the beer right now to see if I can figure this out. When I swirl the glass and take a big sniff, I get a sweet almond smell. When I taste it, I get some bittering on the back of my tongue and in my throat. This batch is Janet's Brown Ale which is a hoppier brown ale. 6oz of hops in the kettle and 2oz dry hopped. I did steep the grains in my full volume. I wonder if this is astringency. The bitterness on the back of my tongue would make sense. Just not sure about the almond smell.

 

[HomeDrewBrew]

Maybe a PH issue??

 

[h22lude]

Maybe a PH issue??

This batch was extract which eliminates any pH issues. I also used RO water

I did use steeping grains and steeped in my full volume. I have been reading this can cause issues but since I have had this problem before with AG, I don't think this is the issue.

 

[Foosier]

+1 for buying water for your next batch. Don't change anything else. Rule causes out one by one. Otherwise you will never know which fix solved the issue.

I would not expect astringency if you are using BruN Water and it is predicting a good PH. Astringency extraction is a reuslt of high PH and high temp. If your PH is in range you should not have an issue. I believe it takes a mash PH of 6.0 or higher to extract tannins.

 

[h22lude]

+1 for buying water for your next batch. Don't change anything else. Rule causes out one by one. Otherwise you will never know which fix solved the issue.

I would not expect astringency if you are using BruN Water and it is predicting a good PH. Astringency extraction is a reuslt of high PH and high temp. If your PH is in range you should not have an issue. I believe it takes a mash PH of 6.0 or higher to extract tannins.

I think this is what I have to do next batch. I have an AG blonde ale to do. I'll use store bought RO water. I'll most likely go get a new packet of US-05 too. I think the one I have is good until 1/2018 but I'd rather use something newer.

 

[flars]

Are you adding Gypsum or CaCl to the RO water for the extract brews?

 

[h22lude]

Are you adding Gypsum or CaCl to the RO water for the extract brews?

No I didn't because extract doesn't need the added salts.

 

[h22lude]

I'm wondering if there are some beer stones in my CFC. I clean it with PBW but I don't think PBW will clean away beer stones. Maybe I should circulate an acid cleaner after PBW.

I think I'm going to clean everything really well with PBW and an acid cleaner. If that doesn't work, I'll then use store bought water. I want to do one at a time to see which one fixes the issue.

 

[brandonnys]

Had the same situation with a plate chiller I was using (which is why I originally asked if you had a plate chiller). I've seen CFCs get a good amount of stone/scale collect inside them that cause a characteristically consistent off flavor. I've used diluted muriatic acid to clean stubborn bio out of copper CFCs in the past.

 

[h22lude]

Had the same situation with a plate chiller I was using (which is why I originally asked if you had a plate chiller). I've seen CFCs get a good amount of stone/scale collect inside them that cause a characteristically consistent off flavor. I've used diluted muriatic acid to clean stubborn bio out of copper CFCs in the past.

I just called 5 Star. They don't sell an acid cleaner to home brewers but they started making a beer stone remover. Not sure how close that is to something like acid cleaner #5 but she said it would work well.

This may be the way I go. I'll do hot PBW through, rinse, BS Remover, rinse and dry.

 

[brandonnys]

What was the BS remover called? Never seen it at my LHBS.

 

[h22lude]

What was the BS remover called? Never seen it at my LHBS.

That is what it is called lol Beer Stone Remover

http://www.homebrewing.org/Five-Sta...Wv76Vj2BNG74HtjYShAL41L5-ixnW4PYsMaAogH8P8HAQ

I think it is relatively new.

 

[SGTSparty]

I just called 5 Star. They don't sell an acid cleaner to home brewers but they started making a beer stone remover. Not sure how close that is to something like acid cleaner #5 but she said it would work well.

This may be the way I go. I'll do hot PBW through, rinse, BS Remover, rinse and dry.

BS Remover? If we use that this entire site will crash! JK I saw this recently and was curious how well it worked so if you do use it please report back on how well/poorly it worked for you.

 

[h22lude]

If my problem stems from beer stones, would that be considered an infection or is it just bad flavors pulled from the beer stones? Would that infect all my other stuff? My beer never has that typical infection look to it. It always looks like a good fermented beer which makes me believe it isn't an infection and if it is beer stones, it is just a bad flavor pulled from them...if that makes sense.

 

[kh54s10]

This is the first I've ever heard of beer stone(s) but it sounds like a mineral build up, like hard water scum on a shower door. I don't think it would infect your other equipment, but if there is a build up, it would do the same if it was elsewhere in your equipment.

 

[Dcpcooks]

If my problem stems from beer stones, would that be considered an infection or is it just bad flavors pulled from the beer stones? Would that infect all my other stuff? My beer never has that typical infection look to it. It always looks like a good fermented beer which makes me believe it isn't an infection and if it is beer stones, it is just a bad flavor pulled from them...if that makes sense.

Beer stone isn't a producer of off flavor per se. It is a rough surface that harbors bacteria that can't be sanitized because it's tucked into the crevices.

 

[h22lude]

This is the first I've ever heard of beer stone(s) but it sounds like a mineral build up, like hard water scum on a shower door. I don't think it would infect your other equipment, but if there is a build up, it would do the same if it was elsewhere in your equipment.

Beer stones are build up of calcium oxalate. Only way to remove it is with an acid rinse/wash.

I don't think beer stones themselves cause infections but sanitizers won't sanitize beer stones so I was thinking the beer stone can cause bacteria to grow which would then cause the infection in the fermentor.

Beer stone isn't a producer of off flavor per se. It is a rough surface that harbors bacteria that can't be sanitized because it's tucked into the crevices.

Right, so the beer stones themselves don't cause the off flavor but the bacteria that cling to them could cause issues. And since you can't sanitize beer stones, the bacteria wouldn't go away unless an acid wash was done to remove the beer stones. That is my thinking anway

 

[Dcpcooks]

Beer stones are build up of calcium oxalate. Only way to remove it is with an acid rinse/wash.



I don't think beer stones themselves cause infections but sanitizers won't sanitize beer stones so I was thinking the beer stone can cause bacteria to grow which would then cause the infection in the fermentor.







Right, so the beer stones themselves don't cause the off flavor but the bacteria that cling to them could cause issues. And since you can't sanitize beer stones, the bacteria wouldn't go away unless an acid wash was done to remove the beer stones. That is my thinking anway

Correct only an acid was will remove beerstone. If you really have beerstone you can use liquid plumber followed by a strong rinse and then PBW to remove and neutralize the acid wash followed by another rinse.

 

[h22lude]

Correct only an acid was will remove beerstone. If you really have beerstone you can use liquid plumber followed by a strong rinse and then PBW to remove and neutralize the acid wash followed by another rinse.

I think I'm going to buy Five Star's BS Remover. Use PBW, rinse, BS Remover, rinse​ and Saniclean. If that doesn't fix my issue then it wasn't the cfc

 

[Dcpcooks]

Ho old is the counter flow chiller?

 

[h22lude]

Ho old is the counter flow chiller?

Less than 3 years but there was a 5 or 6 month stretch where I didn't brew. I think I clean everything well but maybe something contaminated the copper and hot PBW isn't cleaning it well.


Would anyone be willing to taste some? I can send out bottles. I think part of the issue is my taste and smell can't pick out what the off flavor and scent are.