EVA Barrier Line conversion

[Closet Fermenter]

Since I learned here about the damage done by exposing my beer to oxygen, I have been working to limit oxygen exposure. First, I implemented gravity closed transfers of my beer from fermenter to keg. I was amazed at how much difference that made in preserving the roasted barley flavor in my stout!
Next, I changed out my beer lines with eva barrier hose. I believe that I can tell an additional improvement there as well.
Finally I used a piece of eva barrier hose for my blowoff line and keg purging lines in my most recent fermentation.

Question: Should I change out my transfer lines to eva barrier for filling my kegs? Is there really much exposure here? I have been filling them with starsan and purging them with CO2 prior to use. I stand by and disconnect when the transfer is completed.
The only reason I hesitate to just do it is that using the smaller diameter eva barrier hose means that the transfer time is going to be extended, and that I will just be standing there longer, but I can plan for that if necessary.

Any thoughts?

 

[day_trippr]

All of my fixed cold side tubing has been EVABarrier since 2019 - beer, gas, and water - but I still use vinyl lines for racking, as I can use 3/8" ID vinyl for a lot faster transfers than I could get out of as many feet of 4mm ID EVABarrier...

Cheers!

 

[Broken Crow]

I cheat and use a racking pump so I can transfer at the same level. The pump has 3/8" barbs and I recently swaged 1/4"ID EVABarrier over it and yes; it is a bit slower... maybe just under an extra minute to fill a 5G corny so no big deal. I immediately noticed an improvement in the kegs that sat in my basement for weeks before use. The real bottleneck in a transfer is the post and poppet; I don't know for certain but I suspect it maxes out to somewhere between 5/16"-1/4" so again; Minor difference and totally worth the upgrade.

 

[KeizerBrewr]

I use EVABarrier in my brewery, aside from some of my packaging lines which are 5/16" Ultra Barrier.

 

[scrap iron]

I switched out my transfer lines to Eva lines using Duo tight flare to push to fit and it takes about 25-30 minutes to do the transfer. Just a couple of minutes slower than before with 3/8" old lines.
I don't know if it makes that much difference, but I will say my kegs can last 3 months without degrading using good, closed transfer techniques. I not as heavy of a drinker as my younger days.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

All of my fixed cold side tubing has been EVABarrier since 2019 - beer, gas, and water - but I still use vinyl lines for racking, as I can use 3/8" ID vinyl for a lot faster transfers than I could get out of as many feet of 4mm ID EVABarrier...

Cheers!

Thanks! You brought up another point that I meant to include; changing out the gas lines to my kegs as well. It makes sense, I just wanted a little confirmation before going through all the trouble. I also have to admit that I was initially a little skeptical of the effectiveness of the duotight connectors, so I started a little slowly to see how I liked them before buying replacements for all my standard connectors. I have had no troubles so far, and just bought a few more and more hose from Bobby M.
Guess I have some work to do, but if it ends with better beer, I’m game!

 

[KeizerBrewr]

I am in the process of helping my buddy build the parts list for his five tap set up. I knew once I built my first minifridge kegerator this summer, I was going to use EVABarrier and I don't regret it at all, no liquid or gas leaks and it don't have to worry about O2 ingress when the taps aren't being pulled from.

 

[Broken Crow]

Thanks! You brought up another point that I meant to include; changing out the gas lines to my kegs as well. It makes sense, I just wanted a little confirmation before going through all the trouble. I also have to admit that I was initially a little skeptical of the effectiveness of the duotight connectors, so I started a little slowly to see how I liked them before buying replacements for all my standard connectors. I have had no troubles so far, and just bought a few more and more hose from Bobby M.
Guess I have some work to do, but if it ends with better beer, I’m game!

I love duotights, but my disability doesn't If they make you uneasy you can always swag it over swivel nuts;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...mm-monotight-connector-duotight-shank.730515/
I'm in the slow process now of changing out my duotight/evabarrier single-feed gas line that came with my series-x kegerator for 4 separate 1/4"ID EVABarrier lines to a manifold (swaged over 5/16" swivel nuts).
...just sayin'

 

[tracer bullet]

I guess it's been answered, but - the time the beer's in the line to go from the fermenter to the keg is miniscule. Air in the keg is of primary importance as the O2 will eventually mix into the beer even if it takes a few days, I think we'd all agree. Air in the fermenter is important but less so due to the time factor, easily mitigated and I'd say worth the effort. Air coming through the transfer hose over the time period it's being used is probably so miniscule it couldn't be measured and not worth worrying about.

If you want to go that last inch I'd think of how to purge the transfer line from the fermenter to the keg plus the return loop. I generally leave a 1/2 or so psi in the keg so that when I connect my lines to the keg there's CO2 from that keg pushing out whatever ambient air was in them. They go there first then attach tot he fermenter itself.

Was going to mention the line form the CO2 tank to the keg to maintain keg carbonation but see that was done.

For me, I noticed that the beer in my EVABarrier lines from the keg to the picnic tap would also change flavor after a day or two or so. The first ounce or two (trapped in the line) would taste different than anything else that came from behind it (from the keg itself). This is ancient history and been gone over in other threads, and the EVA barrier certainly shouldn't do this and others haven't seemed to notice.... But based on that I also:

1) Ran SS tubing from my CO2 tank to the keg (all but the last couple inches (which are still EVABarrier) to allow some flexibility at the ball lock connector), and 2) Went to flow control taps that mount directly on top of the kegs themselves. My frig is set up to allow this, wouldn't work for a keezer, but the idea might still hold where they are served so that a long line of EVABarrier isn't necessarily relied on.

Hope that made sense.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I have been using the 4mm eva on my beer lines. There’s no way I am going to be able to get that on the 5/16” barb on my regulator.

Could someone post a picture of the eva connection at the regulator with a little explanation?

Thanks!

 

[Broken Crow]

One option is to change the valve/barb on your regulator for an MFL version:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/bv14check.htm
another is the 1/4" ID EVABarrier swaged on to it... you could use 1/4" for all of it or use one of these;
https://www.morebeer.com/products/duotight-pushin-fitting-8-mm-516-95-38-reducer.html
..anywho..here's 1/4"ID 3/8"OD EVABarrier over my regulator;

 

[Closet Fermenter]

Ok, I see that ¼” EVA is available, which I should be able to use with barbs and connectors I already have.

I did change out my transfer hoses yesterday with eva hose and duotight fittings. The results were a little mixed. It took a LOT longer. I’m not sure if that was all due to the smaller diameter, as I eventually found that the liquid connection on my fermenter was not sealing correctly. I was not able to hear the leak over the background noise, but when the transfer stopped and there was still beer in the fermenter, I started looking for the problem. To complete the transfer, I restarted the flow with tank pressure and had to apply downward pressure on the connector to get it to seal on the liquid post. Both the post and the connector are brand new, but I will probably change out the o-ring on the kegmenter posts to see if that cures it. If not, I’ll probably just go back to the old transfer hoses; I am least concerned about the oxygen exposure here. My main concern was with the beer lines, (), and the gas lines since they are hooked up long term. I will get to work on the gas lines.

Thanks to all for the input.

 

[Broken Crow]

I did change out my transfer hoses yesterday with eva hose and duotight fittings. The results were a little mixed. It took a LOT longer.

Was that using 4mm ID? I'm not sure how the pricing is in the US, but here in Canada it was a lot cheaper/ft. to buy the 39' roll..gave me enough to do all my gas lines and transfer lines..the 1/4" (6.35mm)ID that is. I had tried sometime ago to do a gravity transfer with the 4mm, but it took forever and I just can't lift things easily. Because I use a 12V diaphram pump, I can only speak to the negligable difference between 3/8" and 1/4" with that.... haven't tried the 1/4" with gravity.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

Was that using 4mm ID? I'm not sure how the pricing is in the US, but here in Canada it was a lot cheaper/ft. to buy the 39' roll..gave me enough to do all my gas lines and transfer lines..the 1/4" (6.35mm)ID that is. I had tried sometime ago to do a gravity transfer with the 4mm, but it took forever and I just can't lift things easily. Because I use a 12V diaphram pump, I can only speak to the negligable difference between 3/8" and 1/4" with that.... haven't tried the 1/4" with gravity.

Yes, with the 4mm; it was what I had on hand. Again, to be fair, I had an issue with the connector not sealing properly on the post, so this may have lengthened the transfer to some extent.
I will definitely get some of the ¼” hose and give it a try. I will probably get the whole roll so I can replace my gas lines using the connectors and barbs that I already have.

 

[Deadalus]

You could plan ahead and use the 9.5mm outer diameter which has a 6.3mm ID, if you wanted to go bigger on say the gas side or a transfer line. There are adapter fittings for going from threaded NPT and flare to push to connect fittings.

 

[Deadalus]

I still use my old thick gas lines for transfer though myself. I have seen besides what was earlier mentioned that people purge their gas lines. I'm not exactly sure the methods as I haven't been doing that but I do closed transfer otherwise into starsan purged kegs and haven't been worrying too much about the transfer lines.

 

[Broken Crow]

Just a couple notes;
For my 1/4" ID over both 3/8" and 5/16" barbs I used 13.3mm Oetikers (probably a non-standard size..came in an ebay lot)
It was a bit snug on the 3/8" barb but perfect on the 5/16". I don't have any 1/4" barbs on hand cause I always like to slightly oversize barbs, both for peace of mind and minimum flow restriction, but I did use the 9.5mm Oetikers for this nifty universal coupler:

If you really want to speed things up: I just timed the transfer of my GF's cider that my LHBS makes and sells in sankes, and;
Using my racking pump (just a diaphram 12V RV water-pump https://www.amazon.com/s?k=12V+diap...fix=12v+diaphram+pump,aps,97&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 ..same spec as the Blichmann Quick-Carb pump) I timed it while filling and it takes me 4 mins and 35 seconds to fill a 5G corny.. a lot quicker than gravity and totally closed-loop O2 free. My gas return line is the only line I haven't yet changed to EVABarrier..I'm just waiting to see how much I have left of my roll after I finish my other upgrades.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I still use my old thick gas lines for transfer though myself. I have seen besides what was ealier mentioned that people purge their gas lines. I'm not exactly sure the methods as I haven't been doing that but I do closed transfer otherwise into starsan purged kegs and haven't been worrying too much about the transfer lines.

I do purge my transfer lines. I have a keg that I mix starsan in 5 gallon batches.
To purge the liquid-to-liquid line, I pressurize the keg, connect to the liquid out post, and depress the pin in the far end connector until it blows starsan. Then, I turn the keg upside down and depress the far end connector pin until it blows co2. Done

Then the gas-to-gas hose. I disconnect my co2 tank, connect the hose, put the keg on its side, (gas post down), and fill it with starsan. Then I upright the keg and clear it with CO2.
Sounds complicated, but really simple and quick. I would rather use a smaller keg, but I have plenty of extra 5’s and only a couple small ones that are typically in use.

 

[day_trippr]

On kegging days I keep a gas and a beer post with 1/4" mpt adapters handy along with a 6" piece of 3/8" ID vinyl tubing.

I screw those post adapters into the tubing then connect the beer post to the racking tubing beer QD (which has the racking cane and carboy cap attached) and connect my CO2 QD to the gas post. I run some gas through all that then pop the carboy cap and cane in place on the carboy, move the gas line to the carboy cap's attached gas post, and move the beer line to the keg. Et voila!

Cheers!

 

[Deadalus]

I do purge my transfer lines. I have a keg that I mix starsan in 5 gallon batches.
To purge the liquid-to-liquid line, I pressurize the keg, connect to the liquid out post, and depress the pin in the far end connector until it blows starsan. Then, I turn the keg upside down and depress the far end connector pin until it blows co2. Done

Then the gas-to-gas hose. I disconnect my co2 tank, connect the hose, put the keg on its side, (gas post down), and fill it with starsan. Then I upright the keg and clear it with CO2.
Sounds complicated, but really simple and quick. I would rather use a smaller keg, but I have plenty of extra 5’s and only a couple small ones that are typically in use.

Got it. Thanks! Couldn't think of how to do it with my racking cane because I put a male flare on it. Needs a keg post then I could have QD's on both ends.

@Broken Crow I have an assorted lot of clamps, 13.3 is in it, probably a common size.

 

[MikeCo]

Question: Should I change out my transfer lines to eva barrier for filling my kegs? Is there really much exposure here?

No, there isn’t much exposure through the tubing wall in the time it takes to transfer. Vinyl tubing is perfectly fine.

 

[Broken Crow]

No, there isn’t much exposure through the tubing wall in the time it takes to transfer. Vinyl tubing is perfectly fine.

That's what I used to think, but... I routinely fill 2 or 3 kegs with the same batch, one goes right in the kegerator and the other(s) sit in my 68° basement for weeks waiting their turn and they used to lose a bit of their detail and 'freshness'. Since I changed out my transfer lines to EVABarrier though, a keg that sat warm for a month now tastes just as detailed and fresh as the first one. I used to be highly skeptical of some of the LODO extremists' claims, but every time I try another even miniscule O2-elimination technique it clearly pays off. I admit I've now turned hardcore EVA-EVA-EVerything!

 

[MikeCo]

I would guess it’s more likely that your transfer procedure has improved.

 

[Broken Crow]

I would guess it’s more likely that your transfer procedure has improved.

Nope...Exact same procedure and gear except 1/4" ID EVABarrier instead of 3/8" Bevlex 200... maybe a minute slower owing to the smaller diameter, but worth it. Seriously; not being confrontational..if you ever have to store part of a batch, buying just enough EVABarrier for tranfer lines is relatively cheap, if you really want to know for your own palate, give it a try. I'd love to hear from others who made the switch.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

if you really want to know for your own palate, give it a try. I'd love to hear from others who made the switch.

Yeah, I am really bummed out about my transfer experience with the eva this week where I had the connector leak. I don’t know whether it was leaking CO2 out, or drawing O2 in .
If it was drawing O2 in, this will likely end up being worse than with my vinyl lines, and since I was trying a new recipe, a bust.
I was going to naturally carb it by injecting priming sugar, but decided that I better go ahead and force carb it in hopes of getting a taste of it before the flavor diminishes.

I have ordered some ¼” ID eva hose, and I will make up some lines with my barbed connectors and will check them for sealing before my next transfer.

 

[RyPA]

I did both bev out lines in my kegerator, is there a benefit to doing CO2 lines?

 

[Broken Crow]

Yeah, I am really bummed out about my transfer experience with the eva this week where I had the connector leak. I don’t know whether it was leaking CO2 out, or drawing O2 in .
If it was drawing O2 in, this will likely end up being worse than with my vinyl lines, and since I was trying a new recipe, a bust.
I was going to naturally carb it by injecting priming sugar, but decided that I better go ahead and force carb it in hopes of getting a taste of it before the flavor diminishes.

I have ordered some ¼” ID eva hose, and I will make up some lines with my barbed connectors and will check them for sealing before my next transfer.

Did you find the duotight>mfl fittings you'd need or are you swaging them to barbs? ...My last nag ( ): Get or make sure you have a swaging tool. If, like me, you still don't have a proper one, then take a look at the 3mm EVABarrier thread I linked to above, or even this slightly humerous one where I successfully used a chopstick for swaging: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...nt-fit-closed-transfers.733496/#post-10394518

 

[Closet Fermenter]

Did you find the duotight>mfl fittings you'd need or are you swaging them to barbs? ...My last nag ( ): Get or make sure you have a swaging tool. If, like me, you still don't have a proper one, then take a look at the 3mm EVABarrier thread I linked to above, or even this slightly humerous one where I successfully used a chopstick for swaging: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...nt-fit-closed-transfers.733496/#post-10394518

I’m planning on swaging them on 5/16” mfl swivel barbs. I have a marlin spike that I have used to swage hose before that seemed to work pretty well.

 

[Broken Crow]

I’m planning on swaging them on 5/16” mfl swivel barbs. I have a marlin spike that I have used to swage hose before that seemed to work pretty well.

Please take and post pics of you doing it as this thread will be a 'posterity' one that many others wanting to swag EVABarrier will find when searching the interwebz...here's Duck's current results from searching "swag 3mm EVABarrier":

(Just remember to downsize your images, preferably to approx 50kb or less for better page loading )


EDIT: Oops! I meant do search 1/4", but yesterday was hell on my body so I've been drinking

 

[tracer bullet]

I did both bev out lines in my kegerator, is there a benefit to doing CO2 lines?

There should be. O2 can get through normal ones, and even with pressurized CO2 inside the O2 will still get in and mix with it.

 

[RyPA]

There should be. O2 can get through normal ones, and even with pressurized CO2 inside the O2 will still get in and mix with it.

What do you use to connect the duotight line to the CO2 regulator?
Any issues with leaks?
I also have a 1 to 2 distribution block to feed my 2 kegs from the single CO2 line., so I will need to hunt down a few fittings.

 

[tracer bullet]

What do you use to connect the duotight line to the CO2 regulator?
Any issues with leaks?
I also have a 1 to 2 distribution block to feed my 2 kegs from the single CO2 line., so I will need to hunt down a few fittings.

I'm just commenting about the standard lines being permeable.

As for connections, I had EVABarrier for a while with oetiker clamps holding them to barbs I'd stretched them over. Today I've got SS tubing in place.

 

[Broken Crow]

What do you use to connect the duotight line to the CO2 regulator?
Any issues with leaks?
I also have a 1 to 2 distribution block to feed my 2 kegs from the single CO2 line., so I will need to hunt down a few fittings.

1/4" ID EVABarrier and 13.3mm oetiker clamps;

 

[RyPA]

1/4" ID EVABarrier and 13.3mm oetiker clamps;
View attachment 857919

Thanks, boss. Do you heat the lines up first to help them stretch?

 

[Broken Crow]

Thanks, boss. Do you heat the lines up first to help them stretch?

Yup. Using a pot of water on the stovetop is safest, but I very carefully use a heatgun, then stretch it with either a proper swaging tool or any clean tapered thing you have on hand. In the links I put above, there's pics. (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...mm-monotight-connector-duotight-shank.730515/ https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...nt-fit-closed-transfers.733496/#post-10394518)

 

[Closet Fermenter]

1/4" ID EVABarrier and 13.3mm oetiker clamps;

Is this on ¼”, or 5/16” barbs?

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, with a heat gun and swaging tool I managed to get the 5mm ID tubing over the 3/8" barb on my Micromatic beer gas reg...

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

changing out my duotight/evabarrier single-feed gas line that came with my series-x kegerator for 4 separate 1/4"ID EVABarrier lines to a manifold (swaged over 5/16" swivel nuts).

Is that better than using swivel nuts with a 1/4" barb and an oetiker clamp?

 

[Broken Crow]

Is this on ¼”, or 5/16” barbs?

Those ones, including the regulator are 5/16" barbs, though I've used the same clamps and line on 3/8"

Is that better than using swivel nuts with a 1/4" barb and an oetiker clamp?

I like to use slightly oversized barbs for peace of mind and to avoid the bottlenecks of the smaller diameter of a barb to the same size line. I don't suppose it matters with CO2 but as I had a ton of 5/16" SS swivel-nuts on hand, that's just what I used for the gas as well as my liquid transfer lines....pretty sure I used up all the 1/4" ones I had on my 3mm ID EVABarrier liquid line upgrade.

 

[RyPA]

@Bobby_M does brewhardware have hardware for converting gas lines to EVAbarrier?