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English yeast...wy1469 or A09

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rmr9

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Hey all,

I will start this post off by saying I’ve read through a many of the big threads on the topics of English yeast and recipes and I’ve gotten so much great information. With that being said I’m debating two different yeast and fermentation options.

To start with I will go with this grist:
85% MO
10% torrified wheat
5% carastan

Now the yeast: I’m between Imperial A09 pub and wyeast 1469. If I go with A09 I’ll just oxygenate before pitch and ferment around 64, raise to 68-70 for a couple days. If I use 1469 I can either A) oxygenate and pitch, B) “open” ferment by lightly placing the lid on and removing the stopper on my anvil bucket fermenter then covering it lightly with aluminum foil or C) oxygenate then “open” ferment.

Opinions, comments or concerns?
 

bierhaus15

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Both are nice yeasts, although my preference is for the A09. Either way, I would still oxygenate before you pitch and ensure you are using enough yeast. >0.5m/c/ml/P.

When oxygenating, I've not noticed a major difference with regards to various forms of open fermentation; unless you are using a very shallow fermentation vessel.
 

Franktalk

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I agree that both are excellent yeasts, but they are quite different. 1469 is very fruity and can be a bit high maintenance. I have used it many times by just giving it time to do its thing. A09 is not as fruity, but it does give you that marmalady Fuller's thing. But, it is a bit more neutral than 1469. Also, I feel that A09 accentuates the malt more, and 1469 lets the hops shine. I don't know if I answered your question, but there seems to me that there are more implications than just fermentation regimen. They are very different animals.
 
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rmr9

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Thanks for both of your responses. I was wondering what effect the “open” ferment would have...though with ample oxygenation I can see how you wouldn’t see much of a difference, I didn’t put that one together!

The fact that they’re different animals is what intrigues me. I’ve used A09 before, and I liked the results. I’ve just heard/read a lot about how nice 1469 can be. I tried it way back in my early brewing days but there was something off with that batch so I don’t have a good reference. Guess I’ll have to consider what I’m trying to accomplish with this bitter.

I wonder about attenuation as well. I got 74% with the A09 which worked out really well. What I’ve read about 1469 is anywhere between like 65-80% which seems a wide range to me.
 

cyberbackpacker

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I am a1469 fan boy... been re-pitching the same culture for ~5 years now. My attenuation is consistently between 79-81% dependent on grain bill, but still retains great mouthfeel. Love the fruity/estery quality it brings to both bitters and milds. Great top cropper, and clears brilliantly for me.

I pitch healthy active yeast, oxygenate well with pure O2, ferment at 67F in a bucket with loose fitting lid. I have had consistent results all of these years.

One note: I always use invert sugar in my bitters and milds-- I think this is really the only way to consistently get my type of attenuation. From my experience, removing the sugar keeps you in the 65-75% attenuation range.
 
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rmr9

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I’ve been thinking about going the invert route at some point but the idea of boiling a concentrated sugar mixture makes me nervous!

With a grist like I mentioned above, would you estimate the attenuation being closer to 65 or 75%?
 

McKnuckle

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I have also used 1469 a lot, with a recent round of three different beers to relate. First, a 1.045 bitter with an all-malt grain bill, 73% attenuation. A brown porter with 11% invert #3 sugar, 1.053, 79%. Finally, a quasi-Imperial stout with both invert and treacle, only 67%. That one was a 1.079 beer.

As this yeast allegedly comes from Timothy Taylor, I researched their fermentation practices as best I could given what's available on the internet. Between brewery videos, blogs from brewers who've taken tours, and some other random bits, I've landed on a schedule that is easy to follow and yields (so far) predictable results.

Firstly, I ditched the fantasy of Yorkshire squares and open fermentation a long time ago. Impractical for the home brewer, finicky, and just didn't make a difference to me. I actually fermented a small batch of old ale several years ago in an open stainless baking pan. I have a few bottles left - abandoned in my garage - and opened a couple recently. Wow, so much character, and clear as a pane of orange glass. But I digress...

Basically I pitch at 59F, ferment for 7 days with a free rise capped at 68F, drop to 53F for 3 days of settling, drop to 40F for 2 days cold crash, then transfer to a keg on top of priming sugar. 10 additional days in the keg at warm temps to carbonate, then into the fridge to lager for 3 weeks before serving.

After the cold crash step in the fermenter, which by coincidence has also been an Anvil bucket, I've been able to simply run off the beer through the spigot, pickup tube pointed straight down, leaving a perfectly still and settled yeast cake. This has been harvested for re-use. No top cropping here (I've done that a lot in the past with 1469, though).

1469 leaves a nice round, malty finish. It improves after several weeks cold, which is why I wait to really tap it for a while. This is not an impatient brewer's yeast in my opinion. But it's very good. I think I can push the fermentation peak a little higher/faster, which I'll probably try the next time I brew with it.

Your grain bill sounds good. Torrified wheat is a must, and I like Carastan too.
 
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rmr9

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It sounds like you’ve got a nice fermentation process set up! I’ve finally invested in temperature control so if I decide to go the 1469 route I might follow your schedule.

73% attenuation sounds pretty good for an all malt bitter. Seems like it’s a fairly versatile yeast as well. I don’t brew all that often, though I’m hoping to increase to once every 2 months or so. I have shifted to brewing exclusively British style beers because my serving setup is cask and beer engine. I’d love to rotate between bitter, porter, mild and maybe British golden ale so it would be nice to have a single yeast strain that works for all - a strain I can really “know” if that makes sense.
 

McKnuckle

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Oh man, if I had a cask and beer engine I'd be over the moon. It's nearly impossible to get a real one here in the U.S. for a sane price, and the DIY versions seem dodgy to me. So I just get by with letting my ales warm up and de-gas in the glass. Not the same thing of course. Although natural carbonation does help vs. forced carb.

The temperature milestones in the schedule that I listed can and should be played with a bit. But the general schedule really works - pitch cool, ferment moderate, drop below original pitching temp, cold crash. I like how the yeast settled and how the beer cleared with this approach.

Good luck and report back!
 

Holden Caulfield

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No idea about open fermentation, but can't go wrong with either of these yeast - Timothy Taylor vs Fullers, both fantastic bitters.

One very important difference that has not been noted - 1469 is capable of crawling out of any fermenter. Do not underestimate the krausenzilla this yeast will produce. Just when you think you are safe (it kind of has a two stage fermentation), the beast emerges.

Check out the video.

 

Miraculix

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Replace 10% of your base malt with simple sugars, mash low, ferment around 19c, use a09 pub, no fancy open whatever bs, you'll get great beer!
 
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rmr9

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Good thought on the krausen on that strain. My plan is to ferment ~6 gallons in my 7.5 gallon anvil bucket so I can fill my pin up to 5.4 gallons to eliminate headspace. I’m I running into a mess with that plan?
 

Holden Caulfield

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My plan is to ferment ~6 gallons in my 7.5 gallon anvil bucket so I can fill my pin up to 5.4 gallons to eliminate headspace. I’m I running into a mess with that plan?
Not if you use a blow-off. I ferment 5.4 gallons in a 7 gal SS Brewbucket, 1469 easily crawls out of it. You will be ok, but use a blow-off, and don't get fooled that after the first couple of days of vigorous fermentation that it won't be needed. 1469 comes back with a vengeance. In the end, it will make great beer.
 
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rmr9

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Yeah, if I go the 1469 route I’ll get a new 3 piece airlock to attach a blowoff tube to the fermenter that way.

McKnuckle: I know this is supposed to be a highly flocculant strain. When you cold crash do you encounter any issues with carbonating with priming sugar?
 

McKnuckle

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When you cold crash do you encounter any issues with carbonating with priming sugar?
The yeast flocculated nicely for me, but I'm sure a swish of it gets pulled into the keg to do its business. I leave the Anvil's dip tube pointing straight down, which works great. I had no problems.

In each case I crashed in the fermenter to 40ºF for two days. Then I racked into a keg on top of sugar and placed it in a 68º room. I monitored pressure with a spunding valve, which reached its peak between 8-10 days for the lower gravity beers. It will go faster in a warmer space if you can manage that.

The 1.079 stout took 21 days. I am leaving that one at each stage for a long time anyway. I brewed it on 12/22 and still haven't tapped it. Maybe this weekend though?
 
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rmr9

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That’s a good idea on the anvil dip tube I’ll have to give that a try. I think the area of the basement that I’d store my cask at is around 65 so that would probably work. Good to know the pressure peaks around day 8-10 for lower gravity ones. I’ve only ran one batch through my cask since getting it so there’s a lot to learn still.

I’m curious to hear about that stout! Let us know how it is when you get it tapped!
 

faithie999

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The yeast flocculated nicely for me, but I'm sure a swish of it gets pulled into the keg to do its business. I leave the Anvil's dip tube pointing straight down, which works great. I had no problems.

In each case I crashed in the fermenter to 40ºF for two days. Then I racked into a keg on top of sugar and placed it in a 68º room. I monitored pressure with a spunding valve, which reached its peak between 8-10 days for the lower gravity beers. It will go faster in a warmer space if you can manage that.

The 1.079 stout took 21 days. I am leaving that one at each stage for a long time anyway. I brewed it on 12/22 and still haven't tapped it. Maybe this weekend though?
did you carb the stout with sugar in the keg? then let it sit at 68F for a week as the other beer you referenced in this post?
I'm making my first imperial stout and it has been in secondary for about a month. it's ready to keg. I don't use beer gas, but straight N2 to push through the stout faucet.

thanks
ken
 

McKnuckle

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Yes, I naturally carbonated with sugar in the keg. I'm doing that for just about everything I brew for a while now. Trying to save CO2, but also I am finding that the carbonation is finer with a fluffier head most of the time.
 

faithie999

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Yes, I naturally carbonated with sugar in the keg. I'm doing that for just about everything I brew for a while now. Trying to save CO2, but also I am finding that the carbonation is finer with a fluffier head most of the time.
thanks.

what level of carbonation did you shoot for the in the 1.079 stout?

which side of the great debate are you on--cane sugar vs corn sugar for priming?
 

McKnuckle

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I didn't realize that was a great debate :), but if so I'm on neither side... I'm using corn sugar, though, because I had bought a few pounds of it a while ago. Just working my way through it.

I aimed for 2.0 volumes, but I didn't quite get there for some reason. Carbonation peaked at 1.6 volumes, so I just hooked it up to the gas in my keezer to finish the job.

It's easy enough to adjust when naturally carbonating, either by augmenting with bottled CO2, or in the reverse situation, just serving until it calms down. Or you could purge the headspace and serve a few times if it's really over-carbed.
 

chipmunk

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After the cold crash step in the fermenter, which by coincidence has also been an Anvil bucket, I've been able to simply run off the beer through the spigot, pickup tube pointed straight down, leaving a perfectly still and settled yeast cake.
Not sure I understand this - do you mean you siphon out the yeast cake first before the beer? Doesn’t the pickup tube stick into the yeast cake after crashing? Or do you mean it sucks out a bit of the cake then the remainder kind of stays in place?
 

McKnuckle

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No, I do not use a separate siphon.

The Anvil buckets have a rotating pickup tube, which some people probably turn UP to avoid trub when transferring. But I don't do that because it's unnecessary. I leave it pointed down both during the entire fermentation and when transferring.

The design of the Anvil bottom works so well that only a smidge of yeast leaves the vessel when you first open the valve. After that it is clear beer until the very end when the siphon fails. What remains is a packed yeast cake.
 

chipmunk

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Ah interesting. I have an Anvil but have been turning it up. Maybe I’ll try that - thanks for the tip. Have you found the “firmness” of the yeast cake pretty reliable between yeasts, and/or primary time?
 

McKnuckle

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Yes, as long as the yeast have been allowed to drop with a cold crash. I have used a few yeast strains in the Anvil so far. WY1469, WLP802, US-05, Duvel (harvested from bottles), S-04, etc.

There is a dimple in the bottom center (like a Corny keg), just out of reach of the pickup tube, which you will notice is not aligned dead center. I think what happens is that the yeast slips into that concave area, and as long as there is clear liquid to pull, the siphon grabs that more easily. When you get to the point where the level drops near the end, there is not enough liquid for the yeast to become buoyant in, so it stays put.

I'm truly over-analyzing this... basically all you need to take from my post is that it "just works" - give it a try. :)
 
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rmr9

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I usually put the dip tube sideways then turn it so it points downward when I get to the end of the transfer and I also got almost none of the yeast cake. I really like the anvil. I’ll be giving McKnuckle’s method of starting off with the pickup straight down on my next batch.
 
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