English yeast...wy1469 or A09

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rmr9

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Hey all,

I will start this post off by saying I’ve read through a many of the big threads on the topics of English yeast and recipes and I’ve gotten so much great information. With that being said I’m debating two different yeast and fermentation options.

To start with I will go with this grist:
85% MO
10% torrified wheat
5% carastan

Now the yeast: I’m between Imperial A09 pub and wyeast 1469. If I go with A09 I’ll just oxygenate before pitch and ferment around 64, raise to 68-70 for a couple days. If I use 1469 I can either A) oxygenate and pitch, B) “open” ferment by lightly placing the lid on and removing the stopper on my anvil bucket fermenter then covering it lightly with aluminum foil or C) oxygenate then “open” ferment.

Opinions, comments or concerns?
 

bierhaus15

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Both are nice yeasts, although my preference is for the A09. Either way, I would still oxygenate before you pitch and ensure you are using enough yeast. >0.5m/c/ml/P.

When oxygenating, I've not noticed a major difference with regards to various forms of open fermentation; unless you are using a very shallow fermentation vessel.
 

Franktalk

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I agree that both are excellent yeasts, but they are quite different. 1469 is very fruity and can be a bit high maintenance. I have used it many times by just giving it time to do its thing. A09 is not as fruity, but it does give you that marmalady Fuller's thing. But, it is a bit more neutral than 1469. Also, I feel that A09 accentuates the malt more, and 1469 lets the hops shine. I don't know if I answered your question, but there seems to me that there are more implications than just fermentation regimen. They are very different animals.
 
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rmr9

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Thanks for both of your responses. I was wondering what effect the “open” ferment would have...though with ample oxygenation I can see how you wouldn’t see much of a difference, I didn’t put that one together!

The fact that they’re different animals is what intrigues me. I’ve used A09 before, and I liked the results. I’ve just heard/read a lot about how nice 1469 can be. I tried it way back in my early brewing days but there was something off with that batch so I don’t have a good reference. Guess I’ll have to consider what I’m trying to accomplish with this bitter.

I wonder about attenuation as well. I got 74% with the A09 which worked out really well. What I’ve read about 1469 is anywhere between like 65-80% which seems a wide range to me.
 

cyberbackpacker

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I am a1469 fan boy... been re-pitching the same culture for ~5 years now. My attenuation is consistently between 79-81% dependent on grain bill, but still retains great mouthfeel. Love the fruity/estery quality it brings to both bitters and milds. Great top cropper, and clears brilliantly for me.

I pitch healthy active yeast, oxygenate well with pure O2, ferment at 67F in a bucket with loose fitting lid. I have had consistent results all of these years.

One note: I always use invert sugar in my bitters and milds-- I think this is really the only way to consistently get my type of attenuation. From my experience, removing the sugar keeps you in the 65-75% attenuation range.
 
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rmr9

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I’ve been thinking about going the invert route at some point but the idea of boiling a concentrated sugar mixture makes me nervous!

With a grist like I mentioned above, would you estimate the attenuation being closer to 65 or 75%?
 

McKnuckle

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I have also used 1469 a lot, with a recent round of three different beers to relate. First, a 1.045 bitter with an all-malt grain bill, 73% attenuation. A brown porter with 11% invert #3 sugar, 1.053, 79%. Finally, a quasi-Imperial stout with both invert and treacle, only 67%. That one was a 1.079 beer.

As this yeast allegedly comes from Timothy Taylor, I researched their fermentation practices as best I could given what's available on the internet. Between brewery videos, blogs from brewers who've taken tours, and some other random bits, I've landed on a schedule that is easy to follow and yields (so far) predictable results.

Firstly, I ditched the fantasy of Yorkshire squares and open fermentation a long time ago. Impractical for the home brewer, finicky, and just didn't make a difference to me. I actually fermented a small batch of old ale several years ago in an open stainless baking pan. I have a few bottles left - abandoned in my garage - and opened a couple recently. Wow, so much character, and clear as a pane of orange glass. But I digress...

Basically I pitch at 59F, ferment for 7 days with a free rise capped at 68F, drop to 53F for 3 days of settling, drop to 40F for 2 days cold crash, then transfer to a keg on top of priming sugar. 10 additional days in the keg at warm temps to carbonate, then into the fridge to lager for 3 weeks before serving.

After the cold crash step in the fermenter, which by coincidence has also been an Anvil bucket, I've been able to simply run off the beer through the spigot, pickup tube pointed straight down, leaving a perfectly still and settled yeast cake. This has been harvested for re-use. No top cropping here (I've done that a lot in the past with 1469, though).

1469 leaves a nice round, malty finish. It improves after several weeks cold, which is why I wait to really tap it for a while. This is not an impatient brewer's yeast in my opinion. But it's very good. I think I can push the fermentation peak a little higher/faster, which I'll probably try the next time I brew with it.

Your grain bill sounds good. Torrified wheat is a must, and I like Carastan too.
 
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rmr9

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It sounds like you’ve got a nice fermentation process set up! I’ve finally invested in temperature control so if I decide to go the 1469 route I might follow your schedule.

73% attenuation sounds pretty good for an all malt bitter. Seems like it’s a fairly versatile yeast as well. I don’t brew all that often, though I’m hoping to increase to once every 2 months or so. I have shifted to brewing exclusively British style beers because my serving setup is cask and beer engine. I’d love to rotate between bitter, porter, mild and maybe British golden ale so it would be nice to have a single yeast strain that works for all - a strain I can really “know” if that makes sense.
 

McKnuckle

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Oh man, if I had a cask and beer engine I'd be over the moon. It's nearly impossible to get a real one here in the U.S. for a sane price, and the DIY versions seem dodgy to me. So I just get by with letting my ales warm up and de-gas in the glass. Not the same thing of course. Although natural carbonation does help vs. forced carb.

The temperature milestones in the schedule that I listed can and should be played with a bit. But the general schedule really works - pitch cool, ferment moderate, drop below original pitching temp, cold crash. I like how the yeast settled and how the beer cleared with this approach.

Good luck and report back!
 

Holden Caulfield

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No idea about open fermentation, but can't go wrong with either of these yeast - Timothy Taylor vs Fullers, both fantastic bitters.

One very important difference that has not been noted - 1469 is capable of crawling out of any fermenter. Do not underestimate the krausenzilla this yeast will produce. Just when you think you are safe (it kind of has a two stage fermentation), the beast emerges.

Check out the video.

 

Miraculix

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Replace 10% of your base malt with simple sugars, mash low, ferment around 19c, use a09 pub, no fancy open whatever bs, you'll get great beer!
 
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rmr9

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Good thought on the krausen on that strain. My plan is to ferment ~6 gallons in my 7.5 gallon anvil bucket so I can fill my pin up to 5.4 gallons to eliminate headspace. I’m I running into a mess with that plan?
 

Holden Caulfield

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My plan is to ferment ~6 gallons in my 7.5 gallon anvil bucket so I can fill my pin up to 5.4 gallons to eliminate headspace. I’m I running into a mess with that plan?
Not if you use a blow-off. I ferment 5.4 gallons in a 7 gal SS Brewbucket, 1469 easily crawls out of it. You will be ok, but use a blow-off, and don't get fooled that after the first couple of days of vigorous fermentation that it won't be needed. 1469 comes back with a vengeance. In the end, it will make great beer.
 
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rmr9

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Yeah, if I go the 1469 route I’ll get a new 3 piece airlock to attach a blowoff tube to the fermenter that way.

McKnuckle: I know this is supposed to be a highly flocculant strain. When you cold crash do you encounter any issues with carbonating with priming sugar?
 

McKnuckle

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When you cold crash do you encounter any issues with carbonating with priming sugar?
The yeast flocculated nicely for me, but I'm sure a swish of it gets pulled into the keg to do its business. I leave the Anvil's dip tube pointing straight down, which works great. I had no problems.

In each case I crashed in the fermenter to 40ºF for two days. Then I racked into a keg on top of sugar and placed it in a 68º room. I monitored pressure with a spunding valve, which reached its peak between 8-10 days for the lower gravity beers. It will go faster in a warmer space if you can manage that.

The 1.079 stout took 21 days. I am leaving that one at each stage for a long time anyway. I brewed it on 12/22 and still haven't tapped it. Maybe this weekend though?
 
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rmr9

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That’s a good idea on the anvil dip tube I’ll have to give that a try. I think the area of the basement that I’d store my cask at is around 65 so that would probably work. Good to know the pressure peaks around day 8-10 for lower gravity ones. I’ve only ran one batch through my cask since getting it so there’s a lot to learn still.

I’m curious to hear about that stout! Let us know how it is when you get it tapped!
 

faithie999

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The yeast flocculated nicely for me, but I'm sure a swish of it gets pulled into the keg to do its business. I leave the Anvil's dip tube pointing straight down, which works great. I had no problems.

In each case I crashed in the fermenter to 40ºF for two days. Then I racked into a keg on top of sugar and placed it in a 68º room. I monitored pressure with a spunding valve, which reached its peak between 8-10 days for the lower gravity beers. It will go faster in a warmer space if you can manage that.

The 1.079 stout took 21 days. I am leaving that one at each stage for a long time anyway. I brewed it on 12/22 and still haven't tapped it. Maybe this weekend though?
did you carb the stout with sugar in the keg? then let it sit at 68F for a week as the other beer you referenced in this post?
I'm making my first imperial stout and it has been in secondary for about a month. it's ready to keg. I don't use beer gas, but straight N2 to push through the stout faucet.

thanks
ken
 

McKnuckle

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Yes, I naturally carbonated with sugar in the keg. I'm doing that for just about everything I brew for a while now. Trying to save CO2, but also I am finding that the carbonation is finer with a fluffier head most of the time.
 

faithie999

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Yes, I naturally carbonated with sugar in the keg. I'm doing that for just about everything I brew for a while now. Trying to save CO2, but also I am finding that the carbonation is finer with a fluffier head most of the time.
thanks.

what level of carbonation did you shoot for the in the 1.079 stout?

which side of the great debate are you on--cane sugar vs corn sugar for priming?
 

McKnuckle

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I didn't realize that was a great debate :), but if so I'm on neither side... I'm using corn sugar, though, because I had bought a few pounds of it a while ago. Just working my way through it.

I aimed for 2.0 volumes, but I didn't quite get there for some reason. Carbonation peaked at 1.6 volumes, so I just hooked it up to the gas in my keezer to finish the job.

It's easy enough to adjust when naturally carbonating, either by augmenting with bottled CO2, or in the reverse situation, just serving until it calms down. Or you could purge the headspace and serve a few times if it's really over-carbed.
 

chipmunk

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After the cold crash step in the fermenter, which by coincidence has also been an Anvil bucket, I've been able to simply run off the beer through the spigot, pickup tube pointed straight down, leaving a perfectly still and settled yeast cake.
Not sure I understand this - do you mean you siphon out the yeast cake first before the beer? Doesn’t the pickup tube stick into the yeast cake after crashing? Or do you mean it sucks out a bit of the cake then the remainder kind of stays in place?
 

McKnuckle

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No, I do not use a separate siphon.

The Anvil buckets have a rotating pickup tube, which some people probably turn UP to avoid trub when transferring. But I don't do that because it's unnecessary. I leave it pointed down both during the entire fermentation and when transferring.

The design of the Anvil bottom works so well that only a smidge of yeast leaves the vessel when you first open the valve. After that it is clear beer until the very end when the siphon fails. What remains is a packed yeast cake.
 

chipmunk

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Ah interesting. I have an Anvil but have been turning it up. Maybe I’ll try that - thanks for the tip. Have you found the “firmness” of the yeast cake pretty reliable between yeasts, and/or primary time?
 

McKnuckle

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Yes, as long as the yeast have been allowed to drop with a cold crash. I have used a few yeast strains in the Anvil so far. WY1469, WLP802, US-05, Duvel (harvested from bottles), S-04, etc.

There is a dimple in the bottom center (like a Corny keg), just out of reach of the pickup tube, which you will notice is not aligned dead center. I think what happens is that the yeast slips into that concave area, and as long as there is clear liquid to pull, the siphon grabs that more easily. When you get to the point where the level drops near the end, there is not enough liquid for the yeast to become buoyant in, so it stays put.

I'm truly over-analyzing this... basically all you need to take from my post is that it "just works" - give it a try. :)
 
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rmr9

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I usually put the dip tube sideways then turn it so it points downward when I get to the end of the transfer and I also got almost none of the yeast cake. I really like the anvil. I’ll be giving McKnuckle’s method of starting off with the pickup straight down on my next batch.
 
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rmr9

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I finally got around to brewing a best bitter on February 27th. Basically 85% floor malted MO, 10% torrified wheat, 5% carastan, OG 1.050. Decided to ferment with A09 pub this time, 1469 next time. It took off like a rocket, fermented down to 1.012 for 75% apparent attenuation by March 3rd. I left it be until March 13, transferred to cask with 2oz dextrose and a vial of isinglass. I hope to tap it either this weekend or early next week so I will update with the final results!
 
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rmr9

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So I tapped the cask Monday, moved it to my fridge at 50 degrees and let it come to temp overnight. Vented for 8 hours Tuesday, and since it was a bit lively I vented an extra few hours on Wednesday. Hooked up my beer engine and pulled a couple pints: 1 with a sparkler tip, one without.

I’ve read the debate between sparkler and no sparkler and thought to myself “is it all that different?” Well yes, I can say firsthand it is! The sparkler tip pint was great, malty and a little sweet and very creamy - not much in the way of hops. The non sparkler tip has a great balance but lots more hop character. I greatly prefer the non-sparkler tip pint. It’s perfect though: my wife loves malty beer with minimal hop character and I love a beer with balance and a touch of hops. Sparkler on for her, sparkler off for me!
 
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rmr9

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Awesome! I don’t have a ton of experience, but mine was easy enough to take apart and clean. There are some YouTube videos floating around for how-tos
 

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This one was pretty damm good

but would be happy to be pointed towards any other good ones as haven't found that many useful sources.

RLBS did say clean beer engine with line cleaner then warm PBW not hot and a final starsan flush out.
Does yours' have a cooling jacket, if so do you use it?

Answering some of your previous questions, I have made some invert sugar, very easy, followed the plan on Sui Generis site.
Latest bitter a 5 points brewery clone I used Wyeast 1998 and this has dropped me from 1042 to 1006 which is very attenuated. Not quite ready for sampling yet.
Have some WLP 017 on the way and this is the yeast I should have used. Given how much fermenting the 1998 has done I might try it in a dry irish stout.
 
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rmr9

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I’ll have to look through my old notes and see which videos worked for me. Mine had a cooling jacket but I removed it because it was gross looking and I don’t have the setup to even use it. I’ve half a mind to find some way to insulate the chamber but really I don’t mind tasting a quarter pint of warm kinda stale beer before I draw my “real” pint. My beer engine is an old hi-gene model which to my understanding isn’t manufactured anymore but RLBS still sells parts for them.
 

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I was at a club meeting that featured cask ale. There were 8 pins and a corny keg. I ask my friend why the keg was upside down. He put priming sugar in then racked on top then sealed it with 30 lbs of CO2 and inverted it. To serve he attached a picnic tap to the CO2 in and a black disconnect to the out. Is a beer engine needed? I don't know. Is a pin needed? I don't know. Real ale at a party, definitely needed!
 

Northern_Brewer

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To serve he attached a picnic tap to the CO2 in and a black disconnect to the out. Is a beer engine needed?
Up north we would say yes, down south maybe not. Obviously all beer was served on gravity in The Good Old Days, but these days you'll only very, very rarely see it in pubs. It's pretty much the norm at beer festivals though, apart from the most hard-core ones up north, as the logistics of plumbing in dozens of handpulls are insane. But eg Manchester has over 150 handpulls :

I’ve read the debate between sparkler and no sparkler and thought to myself “is it all that different?” Well yes, I can say firsthand it is! The sparkler tip pint was great, malty and a little sweet and very creamy - not much in the way of hops. The non sparkler tip has a great balance but lots more hop character. I greatly prefer the non-sparkler tip pint. It’s perfect though: my wife loves malty beer with minimal hop character and I love a beer with balance and a touch of hops. Sparkler on for her, sparkler off for me!
Which is one reason why northern beers tend to be brewed a bit more bitter.
 
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rmr9

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I’ve definitely read a lot about people using cornies as improvised casks and actually considered doing it myself until I found a brand new pin for less than a new corny. I really like my beer engine and cask setup, maybe it slightly limits the styles I can brew up but I think you can still do a lot.

NB the difference between northern and southern bitter recipes I’ve looked at make a lot more sense now. Definitely need to “build” your recipe to accommodate the sparkler.
 

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No idea about open fermentation, but can't go wrong with either of these yeast - Timothy Taylor vs Fullers, both fantastic bitters.

One very important difference that has not been noted - 1469 is capable of crawling out of any fermenter. Do not underestimate the krausenzilla this yeast will produce. Just when you think you are safe (it kind of has a two stage fermentation), the beast emerges.

Check out the video.

Great video.
 

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Great thread. I am an expat Brit in PA and have been trying to brew a ‘perfect British pint’ for years. I have had a dialogue going with the brewer of my favorite British bitter for several years and brewed my latest iteration last Friday. I used A09 for the first time at 67F and that yeast is a beast! I have a Spike conical with a sight glass at the bottom and fermentation was active four hours after pitching. It completed by this Monday - 72 hours after pitching.
The beer from the sample port is very clear already, lightly carbonated (I use a spunding valve at around 8psi), great color and the yeast attenuated to 77% for a 4.2% beer. The malt character was good but the hop character was too bitter, almost astringent although I am sure this will mellow After aging and cold crash. After all the sample was only three days after pitching. The sample I tasted lacked the fruity esters I was expected and feel that maybe I should have bumped up the fermentation temperature by more than the o
two degrees I bumped it to finish.
I too hanker for a hand pump and may pick one up next time I’m in the UK. In advance of that I am thinking a cask on stillage may be the way to go. Are you guys admitting air to the casks when drawing off the beer or using a CO2 aspirator valve for a ‘blanket’ layer of gas and longer life in the cask?
In my experience, casks are good but designed for high turnover applications like beer festivals or pubs where they can be emptied in 4-7days.

Paul
0EA3C8B3-3AC2-4358-9334-2229034311D9.jpeg
 
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rmr9

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A09 rips through wort like a champ! Like yours, mine was done in a couple days. I fermented in the mid 60s and I have a pretty good ester profile. Fruity but not over the top.

I use a cask breather to help prolong the shelf life. When the world returns to “normal” and I can comfortably have people over again I’ll probably try it open to the air. For now, 5.4 US gallons is too much to get through in a week or less. I did somehow lose a 5lb tank of CO2 through some kinda leak or what have you when I had the breather hooked up the first time. Not sure where it was at because all my junctions passed the soapy water test. My running hypothesis is that the PSI got too high for the breather so it vented, or it got too high for the regulator which then let go through the PRV. Now I turn the tank on and off whenever I want to draw a pint.
 
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rmr9

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I also use a cask widge so I can serve with the cask on end so it doesn’t have to be horizontal. Fits into my fridge that way!
 

DuncB

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Re your lack of fruity esters, could be due to the pressure ferment even though low. I start mine off open ( PRV open) for first 48 hours or so and then during this phase esters hopefully made. Then as OG falls to say 1024 close it up and let pressure rise to the vols I need.
If you are pressuring from the off you can try to go a few degs celsius higher to promote the esters that are suppressed with the pressure.
I've just brewed the Five points bitter clone and that is a northern style bitter with about 150 g of fuggles in boil and at flameout.
Harveys Sussex a southern bitter only 80 g of hops.
One meant for sparkler and the other not.
I'm trying to track down 5 litre mini kegs to use for the real cask effect prime, secondary vent and then engine. Should be able to fill these from the primary tank a week or so in advance and it might work.
Bags work well with the beer engine and can be down to 3 litres so possible to condition, open and let air in and pull it out.
Can't find any pins down here either.
 
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