English Golden Ale Help

[thethirstyweasel]

OK I'm ahead on this one a few brews but I wanted to get plenty of info,especially from the UK guys out there.

I am having trouble finding much information on this style. There aren't any commercial examples of this style available to me locally either.

I'm looking for something for a summertime lawnmower beer, but with English in character.

So should I be thinking really light bitter but crisper or an American Blonde Ale with English malt, hops, yeast. I have read somewhere that some of these have a citrus hop note to them as in US West coast hops?

I'm on a WY1318 London Ale III kick, I just love the stuff, so it won't finish too dry with out a bit of work.

I'm thinking of something 1040ish OG mashed a bit a lower than I normally would for say a bitter, all MO or perhaps a bit of torrified wheat to the grist, maybe a bit of cane sugar to dry it out some, hopped with English Hops to maybe 20 IBUS or so? Dry hopped maybe? Oh do these have a bit of a caramel component maybe a very light say 10-15L British crystal @ 5% or less?
Any info would be appreciated.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Don't think of it as being like a bitter. They aren't overly English in character - Wy1318 fermented cool should be good, but you don't want too many fruity esters. I brew these often to try different hops: 75% ale malt (bland domestic type), 25% wheat malt (to about 1.042) with all late hops (20mins, 10mins, 5mins and flameout/steep) to about 22IBU's. You can dry-hop, but I prefer it without. No crystal. You'll need some acid malt for pH adjustment too.

For hops, English hops are good. You can use the milder American hops (cascade and Willamette are good) but avoid the aggressive/piney/resiny ones like simcoe and columbus. Aussie and kiwi hops are perfect in this style - galaxy, nelson sauvin, motueka, enigma make really refreshing golden ales.

Lastly, I wouldn't add sugar unless you are at the upper end of gravity for the style (1.050ish) - there won't be enough malt to balance the hops.

 

[JKaranka]

These typically have British and American hops. I'd go with half MO and half UK lager malt (or Pilsner) as malts. To about 1.045 OG. Going for about 30IBU between bittering and a 15m addition. Then follow up with a hop stand and a dry hop. You could use a blend of Goldings, Cascade and Celeia if you wanted something quite typical. It's like a weaker, drier APA without all those crystal malts and stuff.

Crouch Vale Brewers Gold is typical of the early style. All lager malt and a single late addition of BG. An American that cloned it (without trying the original) wrote a review here:
http://perfectpint.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/brewers-gold-tasting.html

There are better golden ales out there, but that's pretty typical of the average. The best ones are fruity, dry, crisp, light, drinkable and hoppy.

 

[JKaranka]

Btw, the most popular yeast for the style is US05. There is as little yeast character as possible. It's often made into SMaSH with US hops as well. Considering hop popular the style has been in the UK for around ten years I'm surprised people haven't clocked it up here.

 

[JKaranka]

A good example of the CAMRA Golden Ale category winner is Otley O1:
http://www.otleybrewing.co.uk/essential_grid/otley-o1/

All pale malt, Brewers Gold, Styrians and Citra as hops. Not aggressive as an IPA, but more aromatic / floral due to post boil additions. Moderate but present bitterness and straw to gold colour.

I've never seen / had an US blond ale, but I'd consider a golden ale half way between that and an IPA. British brewers making APA / IPA initially entered them in the Golden Ale category in CAMRA festivals, if that gives you some guidance on where they fall.

Or another Otley beer:
http://www.otleybrewing.co.uk/essential_grid/otley-o2/

Hops: NUGGET, CASCADE, CHINOOK, COLOMBUS

 

[Queequeg]

These beers tend to be made with very pale base malt and american hops JKaranka gives a good example with brewers gold. Any good beer to clone would be Darkstar hophead there webiste lists the ingredients as

extra pale malt (that to me means low colour maris otter)
caramalt (a very light british caramel malt)
cascade and armarillo

http://www.darkstarbrewing.co.uk/beers/hophead

I suspect they use notty yeast or US05 because that the feeling I got when I spoke to brewery's founder/owner who now does the tours.

 

[Hanglow]

Another oldschool one and still a tasty beer is Hopback Summer Lightning. It's a hefty dose of challenger to bitter then ekg to finish. (just checked the website and they say it's 100% ekg) So classic english hops but fairly pale for a bitter, the recipes for it appear to be 100% MO. Also they bottle condition and the yeast is pretty good to use It's a bit stronger at 5% than most though

The modern ones as mentioned use mainly new world hops

You want an assertive bitterness imo, aim for 25 IBU min up to about 50, depending on the strength/water/carb etc etc


Hophead as mentioned is a good early example of a modern one with cascade, I had the dry hopped version a few weeks ago and I think it's still a belter of a beer when well kept. They use US05, about 3% cara and you'd want to use as much as 5 oz or so of late cascade in a standard sized batch I'd imagine . It used to be all cascade I think, I wonder if they've amped it up a little lately with amarillo too? I know Oakham have increased the hops in JHB as more and more have come out. It's Challenger and lots of Mount Hood iirc

 

[Qhrumphf]

I've only had a few of them (Morland Old Golden Hen comes to mind as an easier to find example, one of the few I've had, not sure how it stacks up to the majority), and in my experience, an American Blonde or a subtler, lower gravity APA is pretty close. An overtly pale and hoppier Bitter isn't far off base in my experience, but I'd defer to the folks on that side who have access to more examples.

 

[Queequeg]

+1 to hopback summer lightening, thats a nice beer.

Weasel remember to keep carbonation low and serve at about 14°C

 

[thethirstyweasel]

Thank you for all the info. Sounds as if for the most part they are basically American Blonde Ales, maybe w/o the crystal malt. This might not be what I want, I love British beer. Don't get me wrong American Ales are great. Its English,Scottish and Irish Ale though that I crave, and I'll probably never have it in the cask You guys make the best beer in the world, you don't need a redneck yank from Texas to tell ya,don't let them kill it though, the real ale, I'll keep it flat and in Texas it ain't hard to keep it warm even in the winter.

 

[JKaranka]

Thank you for all the info. Sounds as if for the most part they are basically American Blonde Ales, maybe w/o the crystal malt. This might not be what I want, I love British beer. Don't get me wrong American Ales are great. Its English,Scottish and Irish Ale though that I crave, and I'll probably never have it in the cask You guys make the best beer in the world, you don't need a redneck yank from Texas to tell ya,don't let them kill it though, the real ale, I'll keep it flat and in Texas it ain't hard to keep it warm even in the winter.

Don't be so disheartened! Give one a go. Half US 2row half MO. Something like Goldings, Celeia and Cascade with a 15m addition and a steep. US-05 and all sorted. Serve at 8c and enjoy when mowing!

 

[Queequeg]

They are what they are and they are similar to an apa.

As for casking, i sure real ale flavour is largely due to carbonation and serving temp. As far as I'm concerned you can do that in a keg

 

[Qhrumphf]

They are what they are and they are similar to an apa.

As for casking, i sure real ale flavour is largely due to carbonation and serving temp. As far as I'm concerned you can do that in a keg

I'd say it has as much to do with natural carbonation as anything. I don't have the equipment to keg so I very seldom do it, but I've had several beers where I've brewed bottle and then put a rebrew in a mate's keg for an event, and (admittedly could be all in my mind), there's a difference between the keg product and the bottle conditioned product. Natural carbonation makes the beer taste rounder. Haven't tried them side by side, so like I said I'll admit that could be in my mind, but I've certainly read the same and heard the same from others.

And I've absolutely tasted a difference between bottle and draft versions of many commercial beers. However there's so many other factors (draft usually fresher, sometimes formulations are different, and half the bottled beers out there are carbed in a Brite and CP filled anyway).

With the right setup you absolutely CAN use a keg as a cask though.

 

[Queequeg]

I largely agree with your post.

What i mainly have a problem with is CAMRA's attitude regarding kegging. So many times i have heard the strawman argument that keg beer has to be fizzy tasteless lager.

You can naturally carbonate in a keg, the recap the headspace with CO2.

A cask as far as I am concerned is a keg you don't recap with CO2 resulting is spoiled beer

 

[Qhrumphf]

I largely agree with your post.

What i mainly have a problem with is CAMRA's attitude regarding kegging. So many times i have heard the strawman argument that keg beer has to be fizzy tasteless lager.

You can naturally carbonate in a keg, the recap the headspace with CO2.

A cask as far as I am concerned is a keg you don't recap with CO2 resulting is spoiled beer

I don't like either extreme position. Cask is not right for every beer or every circumstance. But I like cask ale when it's had a day or so. It evolves in interesting ways. With polypins there's not as much (barely any) oxygen uptake as the pin collapses with the vacuum, but in a standard cask set up the difference between the first tapping, 24 hours, and 48 hours is remarkable. I'd go 24 hours first, fresh tapped second, and then 48 third. Of course around here cask ales aren't common and rarely handled right, and some seem to fare better longer than others. But freshness is key.

 

[Queequeg]

Well those changes in flavour are oxidation. Though microoxidation might be a good thing in those styles i have had many many badly kept real ales. For example when i visited Darkstar i had revelation at the brewery, it tasted excellent. Then for lunch i went to the pub 5 mins away, had another pint of revelation and it was a shadow of the beer at the brewery. If that had been kegged there's ni doubt in my mind i would if had a better beer

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'm well aware of the cause. And like I said, around here where few brewers understand the art of cellarmanship, and where cask is often used as a marketing gimmick and excuse to throw something stupid in a firkin with a beer (gummi bear witbier?), most of it is awful. Half the places that do cask regularly and NOT as a "Firkin Friday" gimmick don't get enough turnaround and the beer is nothing but drainworthy, and if you call them out on it they get confused. There's a couple places that do cask well, and it's absolutely wonderful once that micro-oxidation brings out nuances. Like the complexity of blending, it's something you can't fake. There's one place (local brewpub) that's most famous for their Kölsch, and a few Barleywines and a very popular IPA, but they really shine with cask, have built one of those beautiful self-tilting stillage systems, know their turnaround and time things properly, and they do a few excellent renditions of English styles by handpull, good enough that the gents from the British Embassy make it the regular place (owner/brewmaster takes pride in pointing that out).

To me, a bar has to be prepared to handle cask, or they shouldn't be doing it. If the turnaround isn't high, I have no objection to a cask breather (like I said, I have no love for CAMRA puritanism). And absolutely I'd rather have a beer be good on keg than bad on cask. But it's the same as bars that don't properly maintain their tap lines.

 

[Queequeg]

I was not applying do didn't realize it was oxidation, I was not being condensing when I made that statement.

Personally I am not convinced that micro-oxidation creates nauances, for a few styles (Stouts, barrel aged tradation english brett etc) maybe but for most imo its essentially staling.

Let me reiterate, my position

Here is the normal argument made by cask proponents (not saying this is your argument) but it is one commonly see by CAMRA members

1)Cask is naturally carbonated
2)cask is a live beer
3)A cask can breath = beer evolves with time

Yet all these apart from the third comment as false dichotomies and can equally apply to keg. For Example the Moor brewery in Bristol uses Keg but all there beers are naturally carbonated and unfined.

In turn, point 3 more often than not results in a poor quality beer because as you point out good cellarmanship is not widely understood/practices. That being the case you are better off unless you can get a really good source going for naturally kegged beer.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I was not applying do didn't realize it was oxidation, I was not being condensing when I made that statement.

Personally I am not convinced that micro-oxidation creates nauances, for a few styles (Stouts, barrel aged tradation english brett etc) maybe but for most imo its essentially staling.

Nuances is perhaps the wrong word, as I don't think anything originally in the beer would come out with oxidation. Rather, it's the nuanced changes from oxidation. Staling? Yes. But no different than a cellared beer is stale. The issue is when and whether that staling goes from pleasant complexities to offensive faults. And if you don't like the character, that's fine.

Let me reiterate, my position

Here is the normal argument made by cask proponents (not saying this is your argument) but it is one commonly see by CAMRA members

1)Cask is naturally carbonated
2)cask is a live beer
3)A cask can breath = beer evolves with time

Yet all these apart from the third comment as false dichotomies and can equally apply to keg. For Example the Moor brewery in Bristol uses Keg but all there beers are naturally carbonated and unfined.

In turn, point 3 more often than not results in a poor quality beer because as you point out good cellarmanship is not widely understood/practices. That being the case you are better off unless you can get a really good source going for naturally kegged beer.

And we are in perfect agreement there. There are multiple venues around here that are otherwise good craft beer bars where I simply will not touch the cask ales because their cellar practices are so poor.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Don't be so disheartened! Give one a go. Half US 2row half MO. Something like Goldings, Celeia and Cascade with a 15m addition and a steep. US-05 and all sorted. Serve at 8c and enjoy when mowing!

I would use English pale malt or the best substitution you can, English hops or Styrians, and an English yeast. US05 is widely used here now but English yeast character makes a better English blonde with English hops in my opinion. I sometimes blend an American hop in for a change. I like the UK/US hop blend thing.

 

[thethirstyweasel]

I just bottled an ESB last Friday and I'm getting ready to do this one.

I've decided to go the really light bitter route, UK malt & hops, English yeast.

94% Golden Promise
6% Flaked Barley

EKG ~27 IBUs going to dry hop it also.

WY1318 previous slurry (absolutely love the stuff) I believe this is generation 8.

 

[JKaranka]

Sounds very 90s! :-D

If you want to give a go at what they've been like over the last ten years or so, add an ounce of Galaxy or Citra to the dry hop. Something light but very present in the aroma.

What strength are you going for? 1.050 is a good starting point.

Btw, I've never seen flaked barley in a golden ale before. More like blends of MO and pale malt, or MO and Pilsner. Maybe a nudge of wheat. Initially they came from small breweries trying to recover market share from lager ("BME") drinkers so they are crisp and clean with just the hop accents. They've become hoppier with time.

 

[thethirstyweasel]

Sounds very 90s! :-D

If you want to give a go at what they've been like over the last ten years or so, add an ounce of Galaxy or Citra to the dry hop. Something light but very present in the aroma.

What strength are you going for? 1.050 is a good starting point.

Btw, I've never seen flaked barley in a golden ale before. More like blends of MO and pale malt, or MO and Pilsner. Maybe a nudge of wheat. Initially they came from small breweries trying to recover market share from lager ("BME") drinkers so they are crisp and clean with just the hop accents. They've become hoppier with time.

I'm going a little lower OG 1.045 or so probably. I've never used the golden promise before so I thought this would be a good opportunity. I love MO and I am of the understanding it is a maltier Scottish version sort of??? I like flaked barley for its absolute awesome foam formation/retention qualities,much better than wheat IME. A lot of people have said that the flaked barley can make the beer cloudy but I have never experienced this when under 10% of the grist. However this is also probably the palest beer I've used it for so that will be an experiment also. I really want to keep it English also on the hops I love Goldings, the flavor/aroma. I'm not sure it will finish very crisp with that Boddington's yeast. This is really not sounding like the style at all is it, more of a really pale bitter? So are you saying it was more this way in the 90's? Its hard for me to imagine you guys across the pond who in my opinion have historically made some of the best beer in the world sipping a BMC.

weez

 

[JKaranka]

Still about 80-90% of all beer drunk in the UK is lager like Fosters, Carling, Carlsberg, Heineken, etc. In the 80s I think the tide was pretty lager-centric, so smaller breweries went that way to capture market too.

They are kind of a cross between a very pale bitter (less malty and more hoppy), an APA (with less hops and less malts) and a Czech Pilsner (pale, crisp, bitter, hoppy but as an ale and with more late hops) if that helps. They vary quite a lot, but the malts should be forgettable and the yeast character negligible. It's all about light, easy drinking beer, and hops. With 1.045 and ~30 IBU you should get pretty close. Just make sure it ferments very clean and you have some steep / dry-hop hops.

Sounds like you are going for something similar to Exmoor Gold:
"In the world of beer the eyes have it when it comes to ordering ale, something that Exmoor completely understand back in 1986 when they produced the first modern Golden Ale, Exmoor Gold. Designed as a single-malt beer, this was a stunning counter balance to the traditional view of beer — which it had to be as brown as an old sideboard or as coal black as Irish Dry Stout. Exmoor Gold, instead, was the colour of Chardonnay or Carling, sparkling in the glass and appealing to both ale drinkers and lager lovers. As well as looking good, by golly it tasted good, with fresh and fruity flavours tripping across the tongue hand in hand with a soft and comforting malty centre.

In the glass, Exmoor Gold is an appetising and enticing gold in colour. The nose is an interplay between a fresh bouquet of grassy and floral hop and a subtly soft, fluffy caramel-tinged maltiness. The palate sees more balance between gentle grainy maltiness and sprightly floral, citrusy fresh hop fruitiness. The finish is bittersweet with hints of citrus fruit weaving in and out. Try this with a Thai seafood stir-fry, where the delicate hop fruitiness and soft maltiness would add colour to the various spices, or also try with barbequed chicken marinated in honey."

Note how they refer to single malt and appealing to lager drinkers (and having the colour of lager!). It's an early one from the 1980s. They seem to have used a bittering hop and then EKG / Fuggles as a late addition so it is more like a very pale bitter.

 

[thethirstyweasel]

Still about 80-90% of all beer drunk in the UK is lager like Fosters, Carling, Carlsberg, Heineken, etc. In the 80s I think the tide was pretty lager-centric, so smaller breweries went that way to capture market too.

They are kind of a cross between a very pale bitter (less malty and more hoppy), an APA (with less hops and less malts) and a Czech Pilsner (pale, crisp, bitter, hoppy but as an ale and with more late hops) if that helps. They vary quite a lot, but the malts should be forgettable and the yeast character negligible. It's all about light, easy drinking beer, and hops. With 1.045 and ~30 IBU you should get pretty close. Just make sure it ferments very clean and you have some steep / dry-hop hops.

Sounds like you are going for something similar to Exmoor Gold:
"In the world of beer the eyes have it when it comes to ordering ale, something that Exmoor completely understand back in 1986 when they produced the first modern Golden Ale, Exmoor Gold. Designed as a single-malt beer, this was a stunning counter balance to the traditional view of beer — which it had to be as brown as an old sideboard or as coal black as Irish Dry Stout. Exmoor Gold, instead, was the colour of Chardonnay or Carling, sparkling in the glass and appealing to both ale drinkers and lager lovers. As well as looking good, by golly it tasted good, with fresh and fruity flavours tripping across the tongue hand in hand with a soft and comforting malty centre.

In the glass, Exmoor Gold is an appetising and enticing gold in colour. The nose is an interplay between a fresh bouquet of grassy and floral hop and a subtly soft, fluffy caramel-tinged maltiness. The palate sees more balance between gentle grainy maltiness and sprightly floral, citrusy fresh hop fruitiness. The finish is bittersweet with hints of citrus fruit weaving in and out. Try this with a Thai seafood stir-fry, where the delicate hop fruitiness and soft maltiness would add colour to the various spices, or also try with barbequed chicken marinated in honey."

Note how they refer to single malt and appealing to lager drinkers (and having the colour of lager!). It's an early one from the 1980s. They seem to have used a bittering hop and then EKG / Fuggles as a late addition so it is more like a very pale bitter.

Thank You so much for your feedback and info, I love English ale, not that I don't like American beer or German or Belgians for that matter. I have found it much more difficult to get good British beer in my area and it is major driving force behind my home brewing. It gets so hot here in Texas and I wanted something that is light but still flavorful with that distinctive British character. My hopping regime will be a FWH no real boil kettle additions other than a large flameout steeping addition and a dry hop.

weez

 

[JKaranka]

Thank You so much for your feedback and info, I love English ale, not that I don't like American beer or German or Belgians for that matter. I have found it much more difficult to get good British beer in my area and it is major driving force behind my home brewing. It gets so hot here in Texas and I wanted something that is light but still flavorful with that distinctive British character. My hopping regime will be a FWH no real boil kettle additions other than a large flameout steeping addition and a dry hop.

weez

You'll be fine with that hop schedule!

Should be good for hot weather. You can easily serve them colder than other ales. When I mentioned styles earlier that it compares to, I didn't mention US blonde ale. I've never seen one of those for sale, but the recipes I've seen seem like duller versions of golden ales, if that make sense. Here they are often between a traditional bitter and APA in hop character, specially late additions. US and New World hops very welcome! (Check Moorhead Nor'Hop or Dark Star Hophead for the hoppier versions.)

 

[thethirstyweasel]

You'll be fine with that hop schedule!

Should be good for hot weather. You can easily serve them colder than other ales. When I mentioned styles earlier that it compares to, I didn't mention US blonde ale. I've never seen one of those for sale, but the recipes I've seen seem like duller versions of golden ales, if that make sense. Here they are often between a traditional bitter and APA in hop character, specially late additions. US and New World hops very welcome! (Check Moorhead Nor'Hop or Dark Star Hophead for the hoppier versions.)

Yeah, you usually don't see too many blonde ales in the states bottled, they are mostly on tap at brewpubs, for breaking in the BMC crowd to craft beer. The ones I've had are like straight American 2 row or pils malt sometimes with honey malt, Munich ,Vienna and/or a really lite crystal or caramel 10L-15L, they are much like American lager but often with West coast hops, but sometimes German noble, usually with 1056/001/05 Chico yeast. Cream ale is similar but different, I think of American Blonde as being a lighter body,color, bitterness and to a lesser ex stint hop character than an APA, where cream ale is basically an American lager with ale yeast, almost always with a corn character.


Weez

 

[Queequeg]

You need a nice pale english base malt, maris otter low colour, optic, halcyon are good options. You add a touch of british pale caramel malt or munich (yes i said munich) to replicate cornish gold malt, and a touch of terrified wheat. Ferment with WLP007. Bitter with challenger, flavour and aroma additions of less well known but excellent British hops, admiral, pioneer, pilgrim etc

 

[thethirstyweasel]

You need a nice pale english base malt, maris otter low colour, optic, halcyon are good options. You add a touch of british pale caramel malt or munich (yes i said munich) to replicate cornish gold malt, and a touch of terrified wheat. Ferment with WLP007. Bitter with challenger, flavour and aroma additions of less well known but excellent British hops, admiral, pioneer, pilgrim etc

I'm not going with any this time but I very often add aromatic ( which I refer to as super Munich) to my British ales, I know its probably not traditional but I love the rich malty character it provides and color contribution without the sweetness of caramel and it allows me to cut back on crystal malts in my recipes. I never have used 007 its the dry whitbread isn't it? A lot of micros use it here in the states Stone I'm pretty sure for instance, its really a clean flavor profile isn't it? I know I should branch out in the hop department, I've never used admiral and never heard of pioneer or pilgrim. I'm not a huge fan of challenger or fuggles, I use goldings and northern brewer almost exclusively in British ale. Thanks for the tips.

weez

 

[Queequeg]

007 gets things nice and dry but it still has some English yeast character.

 

[thethirstyweasel]

007 gets things nice and dry but it still has some English yeast character.

I may try it I'm on a wy1318 kick right now, I bottle and where a lot of yeasts will take 3 weeks to carb up much less develop, 1318 will carb up in a week and be well conditioned in 2 weeks with the low gravity ales I usually brew.

weez

btw the golden ale is on the boil got about 15 min till flame out.

 

[JKaranka]

btw the golden ale is on the boil got about 15 min till flame out.

Enjoy! Report back in a month!

 

[thethirstyweasel]

here it is 10 days in the bottle

 

[JKaranka]

Looks right, does it taste ok?

 

[thethirstyweasel]

Looks right, does it taste ok?

Yea, I like it. Its rather dryer than I expected using 1318 it finished @ 1.006. Which I was trying to do, I mashed @ 148F for 90 min. It just surprised me. Its very lager like, really clean for this strain but I fermented it @ 62-64F. A really soft bitterness with some Golding flavor. This was the first time I had used Golden Promise malt, and its a very good malt but if I did it over again I use MO just a matter of personal taste. I'm going to switch to some American ale for a while got supplies for an American Blonde Today to brew Thursday, got to do something with the cider first though.

Weez