English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Colindo]

No problem. The only reason why I was so confident is that the Herrmann scheme is referred to on an almost daily basis in the German homebrew forum. I like to tell them then that it would be easier chucking glucose powder in the boil as the brits sometimes did it.

Though I'm no longer certain they did. I have a suspicion that whenever "glucose" or "glucose syrup" is mentioned in brewing records, it referrs to a starch-derived syrup high in dextrins. Which is an easy way to boost body if you don't want to change your everyday mash temperature.
I recently realised that the Grafschafter Heller Sirup also contains "glucose syrup", meaning a high-dextrin one. So I might use this syrup for a Burton Ale this winter, again to boost the body.

 

[Miraculix]

No problem. The only reason why I was so confident is that the Herrmann scheme is referred to on an almost daily basis in the German homebrew forum. I like to tell them then that it would be easier chucking glucose powder in the boil as the brits sometimes did it.

Though I'm no longer certain they did. I have a suspicion that whenever "glucose" or "glucose syrup" is mentioned in brewing records, it referrs to a starch-derived syrup high in dextrins. Which is an easy way to boost body if you don't want to change your everyday mash temperature.
I recently realised that the Grafschafter Heller Sirup also contains "glucose syrup", meaning a high-dextrin one. So I might use this syrup for a Burton Ale this winter, again to boost the body.

I'm pretty sure that glucose syrup is glucose only. There's a version which also contains fructose but I doubt that the modern version contains any bigger amount of longer carbohydrates.

I've brewed with heller sirup multiple times, it ferments out 100%.

 

[Colindo]

@Miraculix It's a rabbit hole I went down a year ago. These are all called glucose syrup. Source (p. 44)

I have not used Heller Sirup yet, so not sure about what will happen. But the nutritional infos state "carbohydrates: 81%, of which sugars: 51%", while all other syrups I have used so far have both numbers equal or near equal. So it should contain roughly 30% dextrins.

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix It's a rabbit hole I went down a year ago. These are all called glucose syrup. Source (p. 44)
View attachment 861495

I have not used Heller Sirup yet, so not sure about what will happen. But the nutritional infos state "carbohydrates: 81%, of which sugars: 51%", while all other syrups I have used so far have both numbers equal or near equal. So it should contain roughly 30% dextrins.

Dafuq, you're right. Ok mixed up the % Vs g thing, but still main message is correct.

You cannot trust the name given to things these days....

One question remains. What's their definition of sugars? Do they count maltose or maltotriose as sugars? Or only glucose and fructose and saccharose?

 

[Colindo]

One question remains. What's their definition of sugars? Do they count maltose maltotriose at sugars? Or only glucose and fructose and saccharose?

I never looked that up, but just did, and apparently it includes all monosaccharides and disaccharides. So maltotriose is part of the carbohydrates.

 

[Fr_Marc]

During the winter months I really enjoy a dried fruit/plum/fruitcake aroma and flavour in darkish beers. Do you have any suggestions on how to best archieve this? What malts or adjuncts do you suggest? Which mash schedule, yeast etc?

I do not want to put any dried fruit, plums, fruitcake or spices into the kettle or fermenter, btw. I do not want to produce a flavoured beer, but a flavourful beer.

Two years ago, I posted the same question on another forum. Here are the suggestions from over there:

• modest use of Weyermann Special B or Simpson's DRC and a range of medium and dark crystal malts
• chloride biased water profile with over 100ppm calcium
• Scottish ale yeast

I am interested to know what you guys suggest. I remeber that @Colindo mentioned a distinct plum aroma in one of his videos on YouTube, but I can't remember in which one, unfortunately.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Witherby]

During the winter months I really enjoy a dried fruit/plum/fruitcake aroma and flavour in darkish beers. Do you have any suggestions on how to best archieve this? What malts or adjuncts do you suggest? Which mash schedule, yeast etc?

I do not want to put any dried fruit, plums, fruitcake or spices into the kettle or fermenter, btw. I do not want to produce a flavoured beer, but a flavourful beer.

Two years ago, I posted the same question on another forum. Here are the suggestions from over there:

• modest use of Weyermann Special B or Simpson's DRC and a range of medium and dark crystal malts
• chloride biased water profile with over 100ppm calcium
• Scottish ale yeast

I am interested to know what you guys suggest. I remeber that @Colindo mentioned a distinct plum aroma in one of his videos on YouTube, but I can't remember in which one, unfortunately.

Thanks for your help!

For hops, how about Bramling Cross, "This use exhibits complex fruity notes of lemon, blackcurrant and pear, particularly when used as a late addition. Some brewers have also recorded notes of blackberries and plums."
https://hopalliance.com/products/bramling-cross-uk-hop-pellets-2023?variant=40476785770630

Or something like Phoenix, with "aroma notes are chocolate, molasses and spice and it is excellent for dark beers, stouts and porters.
https://stocksfarm.net/shop/hop-varieties/phoenix-2024/

 

[Colindo]

@Fr_Marc Hi there, I would second the Special B or DRC malts, more than the normal crystals. Basically you get plum from anything with strong Maillard reactions, so a Belgian-made dark invert sugar like the really dark Candi stuff would also work.

Yeast-wise I think WLP500 might do the trick. It is very fruity with cherry and plum notes, from what I remember.

I'm not too sure on the hop notes from @Witherby , because for me Bramling Cross tends to give a very clean blackcurrant flavour (2g/l in the boil for flavour, in the whirlpool for aroma). I haven't used Phoenix much though.

 

[Drinking Sensibly]

Hops-wise East Kent Goldings, used in the boil, are probably the best bet. Not because they have intrinsic dark fruits flavour but they don't add flavour notes that detract from or clash with the ones you want.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

@Fr_Marc
I've noticed dark crystals together with small amounts of black malt can give a bit of that dark fruit aroma/flavour.
Other than that I would as others have suggested look at yeasts that bring those esters.

 

[Miraculix]

I find that the darker crystals can also contribute a bit of a dry harshness to the beer if used in amounts above about 5%. So maybe a combination of let's say 5% dark Crystal with about 10% Medium Crystal would do it. A higher crystal content like this leaves room for sugar additions which could be used for implementing 5-10% dark candi sirup. Also to max out the flavour, an abv around 6% or more would certainly help to intensify all given aromas. This paired with the right yeast (I haven't tried the suggested ones myself but would try these), should give you your desired flavour.

Just don't go overboard with additional roasted malts and grains. These can easily cover the crystal flavour if overdone.

 

[HM-2]

The combination of 5-7% DRC with about 5% black treacle throws some pretty decent fruit cake notes. Especially when combined with a sweet citrus forward British hop like First Gold.

I have an 8% Old Ale recipe that's 80% MO, 7% DRC, 3% wheat plus 5% each of treacle and golden syrup/invert that I usually ferment with WLP007. Hopped to 40 IBU plus a decent whirlpool of first gold it's definitely pushed that "Christmas cake" vibe.

 

[tracer bullet]

I think I must be the only one that doesn't like DRC. I like the sound of what it should add, and dig the raisin type notes as well. But it also gave a "rye" flavor I don't like. It was a while back in this thread where I kept changing my recipe, swapping out various grains or removing them altogether, trying to get rid of the rye flavor and it turned out that it was the DRC that was doing it to me. I was around the 4% range with it.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I think I must be the only one that doesn't like DRC. I like the sound of what it should add, and dig the raisin type notes as well. But it also gave a "rye" flavor I don't like. It was a while back in this thread where I kept changing my recipe, swapping out various grains or removing them altogether, trying to get rid of the rye flavor and it turned out that it was the DRC that was doing it to me. I was around the 4% range with it.

I'm not a big fan of it either.

 

[Fr_Marc]

Thank you all for your helpful suggestions and advice. I will try to come up with a recipe and method incorporating what I have learned here. I will let you know what I come up with and how everything went. Cheers!

 

[user 246304]

@Fr_Marc Hi there, I would second the Special B or DRC malts, more than the normal crystals. Basically you get plum from anything with strong Maillard reactions, so a Belgian-made dark invert sugar like the really dark Candi stuff would also work.

Yeast-wise I think WLP500 might do the trick. It is very fruity with cherry and plum notes, from what I remember.

I'm not too sure on the hop notes from @Witherby , because for me Bramling Cross tends to give a very clean blackcurrant flavour (2g/l in the boil for flavour, in the whirlpool for aroma). I haven't used Phoenix much though.

Not brewing but hope to from time to time, and Fr-Marc's palate is also mine for a good winter beer. I don't have Special B but used to use it a lot. I do have DRC on hand, but can't really recall - would you say these exhibit more of that raisiny, roast-plum quality, v. their equivalents (in color) of other crystal malts?

edit: crossed in the mail with some comments on the DRC. Will have to do some more digging. I do have some nice DIY inverts 1-4 and like the quality they lend.

BTW, an adaptation/parse of Hook Norton's Twelve Days. Thoughts?

 

[Colindo]

@Gadjobrinus Yes, as I said I get lots of dark dried fruit from Special B, more than from dark crystal.

You Hook Norton recipe seems to be a very small picture, I can't really read anything.

 

[tracer bullet]

Yes, as I said I get lots of dark dried fruit from Special B, more than from dark crystal.

Have you ever noticed a "rye like" flavor from either? Maybe I should try some Special B in my next beer. as long as it is unlike the dark crystal in that way.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I made an English strong ale a few years ago with Special B. Very tasty after months of age.

 

[DBhomebrew]

18 months!

HB English-y Strong Ale

18+ months old. The 4% Special B is finally enjoyable.

View attachment 785058

 

[user 246304]

@Gadjobrinus Yes, as I said I get lots of dark dried fruit from Special B, more than from dark crystal.

You Hook Norton recipe seems to be a very small picture, I can't really read anything.

Sorry, here you go.

 

[Colindo]

@tracer bullet I never had a rye flavour from those. But I did not use them excessively, just a few times each.

 

[Colindo]

@Gadjobrinus Looks good! Make sure you use chloride-heavy water. Not sure if that "measured Mash pH: 5.20" is a good sign. Should be around 5.4-5.6.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I'm not sure how portery it will come out though, that looks more like a beer akin to an Old Peculier or the like.
@Gadjobrinus

 

[Colindo]

I'm not sure how portery it will come out though, that looks more like a beer akin to an Old Peculier or the like.
@Gadjobrinus

100% This ticks all the boxes on a Burton Ale. But BJCP knows nothing of this beer style, of course

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2023/03/lets-brew-1900-whitbread-single-stout.html?m=1

I've got a query relating to this one.
Got it planned as my next brew, destined for bottling, and am pondering a little on old amber malt.

The brown malt I am fairly certain I can use modern stuff, as from what I can gather at the time most the beers I approximate(~1890-ww1) the drum roaster had mostly replaced the traditional way of brown malt making and you can see brewers using at most 15% of it compared to at least 20+ a decade or two earlier...
I've used imperial malt 50/50 with base and noticed it gave a slightly toasted flavour, and thought to try gently oven toasting it to approximate the old school amber malt that was more toasted rather than the roasted stuff we have today.
Thoughts?

 

[Colindo]

@Erik the Anglophile I'm pretty sure that brown malt and amber malt went through the same transition. So if you use either in the modern version, use both. Remember that our now nown amber malt was recreating on request of Fuller's when they wanted to brew their 1845 for the first time. Of course there are quite some variations in terms of colour among the different maltsters, but the general idea of a lightly roasted malt should be correct for 1900.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

My main concern is that seemingly, amber malt was still diastatic at that time, indicating it would have been a lot more lightly roasted and less intense than the stuff we have today...
I'm not planning to roast it hard, just 20-30 min at 130c and stirring it a few times during that time.

 

[Colindo]

My main concern is that seemingly, amber malt was still diastatic at that time, indicating it would have been a lot more lightly roasted and less intense than the stuff we have today...
I'm not planning to roast it hard, just 20-30 min at 130c and stirring it a few times during that time.

I mean sure, why not try it? No idea what the result is going to be. Probably like a mixture between kilning and roasting.

I just checked and Ron does indeed state that amber malt was still diastatic back then. Curious https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2022/05/more-malt-1880-1914.html

 

[Miraculix]

My main concern is that seemingly, amber malt was still diastatic at that time, indicating it would have been a lot more lightly roasted and less intense than the stuff we have today...
I'm not planning to roast it hard, just 20-30 min at 130c and stirring it a few times during that time.

I have no first hand experience but just wanted to add what I've stumbled across during my little adventures on the internet. It looks like as soon as malt is roasted, it might be a good idea to let it lay around semi open afterwards for a few weeks before using it. It's supposed to drive off unwanted aromas.

So if you're already going through the hassle, maybe you want to try it.

 

[Witherby]

100% This ticks all the boxes on a Burton Ale. But BJCP knows nothing of this beer style, of course

I'm curious what you think of the BJCP provisional Burton Ale guidelines:
https://www.bjcp.org/beer-styles/17a-british-strong-ale-burton-ale/

 

[user 246304]

@Gadjobrinus Looks good! Make sure you use chloride-heavy water. Not sure if that "measured Mash pH: 5.20" is a good sign. Should be around 5.4-5.6.

Thanks much. Yep, check on the Cl water. I don't use a lot of the values in Beersmith so I think that "5.20" was likely a batch holdover from a previous brew of another beer (as a template for setting up this one), where I'd overshot the pH reduction.

 

[user 246304]

I'm not sure how portery it will come out though, that looks more like a beer akin to an Old Peculier or the like.
@Gadjobrinus

Thanks, yep, funny you say that as I have a "Christmas/strong/old ale" folder set up in BS and couldn't find this recipe anywhere - until I looked in my porter folder. Not sure why I have it there, unless I was using the Twelve Days as a starting point based on its sensory description on the Hook Norton website, and not a true clone attempt.

 

[user 246304]

100% This ticks all the boxes on a Burton Ale. But BJCP knows nothing of this beer style, of course

Colindo, curious what you're seeing that gives this a Burton ale class. For one, I'm getting 56 EBC, between the C135-165 and DRC, 11.4% crystal, and invert 3 & 4 at 10%. IBU 41.4, abv 5.4%. I'm getting on the low side IBU for a Burton strong, out of style low on the OG, low side abv, and way darker than the Burton strong (43.3 EBC maximally) at 56 EBC. I know to discount the BJCP style guidelines, but even so, I'm not seeing the comparison. What are you seeing?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I'd say that considering the spiritual descendants of Burton ales are the likes of Fuller's old winter, Old Peculier, Riggwelter and the like your recipe definitely ticks the boxes.

 

[user 246304]

I'd say that considering the spiritual descendants of Burton ales are the likes of Fuller's old winter, Old Peculier, Riggwelter and the like your recipe definitely ticks the boxes.

OK, I get you. I'd thought you were talking about the house of Burton pale bitters and ales.

 

[Colindo]

Colindo, curious what you're seeing that gives this a Burton ale class. For one, I'm getting 56 EBC, between the C135-165 and DRC, 11.4% crystal, and invert 3 & 4 at 10%. IBU 41.4, abv 5.4%. I'm getting on the low side IBU for a Burton strong, out of style low on the OG, low side abv, and way darker than the Burton strong (43.3 EBC maximally) at 56 EBC. I know to discount the BJCP style guidelines, but even so, I'm not seeing the comparison. What are you seeing?

Burton Ale is not a pale ale. It turned dark at the same time as mild ale at the end of the 19th century. The last version that was still prominent in the 50s featured strong dark fruit flavours and had 5-6% ABV. So it all ticks the boxes. Especially if you combine it with an increased final gravity, since it was generally a sweet beer.

@Witherby Nice find! I had only checked the 2021 guidelines. Looks pretty solid to me, with most of the details pinned down. I would have mentioned that among the characteristic ingredients are also molasses and high-dextrin glucose syrup, but I guess this is less known.
22 SRM is pretty pale, but the BJCP colour scale is generally weird, trying to make fit the old 90s formulas for colour where even the darkest Guinness does not go above 80 EBC (even though it measures at 160). I would brew a Burton ale at around 50-60 EBC, so 25-30 SRM.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I had this this cask Burton ale last week, brewed by Thornbridge in collaboration with Kernel on the Burton Union set they acquired earlier this year from Marston's. They took advice from Ron P and based It on a 1922/23 Courage KKK recipe. It was pretty wicked. I had two to make sure it wasn't a fluke.

https://store.thekernelbrewery.com/...ridge-brewery-x-the-kernel-brewery-burton-ale

 

[corncob]

Burton Ale is not a pale ale. It turned dark at the same time as mild ale at the end of the 19th century. The last version that was still prominent in the 50s featured strong dark fruit flavours and had 5-6% ABV. So it all ticks the boxes. Especially if you combine it with an increased final gravity, since it was generally a sweet beer.

@Witherby Nice find! I had only checked the 2021 guidelines. Looks pretty solid to me, with most of the details pinned down. I would have mentioned that among the characteristic ingredients are also molasses and high-dextrin glucose syrup, but I guess this is less known.
22 SRM is pretty pale, but the BJCP colour scale is generally weird, trying to make fit the old 90s formulas for colour where even the darkest Guinness does not go above 80 EBC (even though it measures at 160). I would brew a Burton ale at around 50-60 EBC, so 25-30 SRM.

How much, if any, roast would be in a Burton ale from this period?

 

[ba-brewer]

I brewed the 1937 version a few years back that turned out nice. I used WLP030 and got an attenuation in the low 70s for an ABV in the low 7s which seems inline with the version that was brewed in 2011 from the article.
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2015/10/lets-brew-wednesday-1937-courage-kkk.html