Quantcast

Vienna Lager Eliot Ness Vienna Lager Clone

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
Recipe Type
All Grain
Yeast
WLP 830 German Lager
Yeast Starter
YES 2000ml
Batch Size (Gallons)
5.25
Original Gravity
1.061
Final Gravity
1.014
Boiling Time (Minutes)
60
IBU
29
Color
12.6 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
21 Days @ 52 Degrees
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
30 Days @ 42 Degrees
Tasting Notes
Exactly like Great Lakes Brewing Co. Eliot Ness Amber Lager
Been searching for a recipe for Eliot Ness and came up empty. I took the ingredients that Great Lakes provides in their Eliot Ness Ingredient List and made this clone. This is as close as they come. Brew it up and tell me what you think.

Style: Vienna Lager Brewer: Anthony Vaccani
Batch Size: 5.25 gal
Assistant Brewer: Paul Vaccani
Boil Volume: 6.86 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 76.00

Ingredients or IBU
6.25 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (1.7 SRM)
4.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM)
0.5 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM)
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.20 %] (60 min) 13.6 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.20 %] (30 min) 10.4 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.20 %] (10 min) 4.9 IBU
0.5 oz Hallertauer [4.20 %] (0 min) 0 IBU
1.00 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min)
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min)
1.00 items Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min)
1 Pkgs German Lager (White Labs #WLP830) [Starter 2000 ml]

Measured Original Gravity: 1.061 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Color: 12.6 SRM (10.0-16.0 SRM)
Bitterness: 29.0 IBU
Alpha Acid Units: 8.4 AAU
Actual Alcohol by Volume: 6.13 %
Actual Calories: 273 cal/pint


Mash Profile Name:
Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge Mash Tun Weight: 6.00 lb
Mash Grain Weight: 11.76 lb
Mash PH: 5.2 PH
Grain Temperature: 62.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 175.0 F
Sparge Water: 3.99 gal

Mash In Add 17.64 qt of water at 160.7 F 150.0 F 65 min

Can you guess the which one is the real deal?
 

kornbread

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
389
Reaction score
8
Location
Mayodan
Looks tasty... But, how can this be a "Vienna" lager with no "Vienna" malt?
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
Looks tasty... But, how can this be a "Vienna" lager with no "Vienna" malt?
It is very tasty. As for being a Vienna lager, apparently it doesn't specifically need vienna malt to qualify, as the BCJP guidlines cites the Eliot Ness as a commercial example.
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
Both look great, but my vote for the real deal is the one on the right as it's a little clearer.
Thank you! Actually the one on the right is the clone. They both were cold and the glasses kept sweating, by the time I wiped one off, the other one was covered again.
 

redstrat

Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
Location
Columbus
Thanks for sharing this recipe, I'm brewing it as we speak, just added the 60min hops, smells awesome!! :mug:
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
Thinking of brewing this up soon. Any additional suggestions or thoughts.
Just make sure that you pitch enough healthy yeast. I can't stress that enough, especially with a bigger lager like this. This as with pretty much any other lager is meant to be clean and crisp.

Other than that, keep the fermentation temp under control and you're all set!
 

redstrat

Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
Location
Columbus
Just polished off the last of my Keg of this recipe, it was very tasty, I can't wait to brew this again! The flavor of the Caramunich III took center stage for the malt flavors, which I really liked. I did a side by side comparison with mine and the Great Lakes Version and was suprised how close they were, maybe I'm biased but I liked this version more. A++ for the recipe, thanks Newbeerguy for sharing!!
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
Just polished off the last of my Keg of this recipe, it was very tasty, I can't wait to brew this again! The flavor of the Caramunich III took center stage for the malt flavors, which I really liked. I did a side by side comparison with mine and the Great Lakes Version and was suprised how close they were, maybe I'm biased but I liked this version more. A++ for the recipe, thanks Newbeerguy for sharing!!
Glad to hear you enjoyed it and thanks for the kind words. I appreciate the feedback and really happy it was to your liking! I know my dad has been on me to brew some more of this up for him. This is one of his favorite recipes. :mug:
 

SeeFeeds

New Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Location
LV
Brewed this back in March, primary for two weeks, D-rest for two days, and lagered at 34* for a full two months. I bottled this beer last month and just tried one - probably the best beer I've ever made. Big thanks for posting this recipe.
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
Brewed this back in March, primary for two weeks, D-rest for two days, and lagered at 34* for a full two months. I bottled this beer last month and just tried one - probably the best beer I've ever made. Big thanks for posting this recipe.
Thats awesome to hear! :mug: I am glad you decided to give it a shot and it turned out great for you. I really enjoy this one as well. I give you props for waiting so long after brewing to taste, I think the additional time really makes it better. Cheers!
 

idigg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Messages
391
Reaction score
12
Location
West Allis
I'm going to brew this as soon as my Oktoberfest is done lagering. Will it be okay if use Wyeast Munich? Also, I was thinking of doing a 9.5 gallon boil to end up with 8 gallons and split between 2 buckets for primary then transfer to 2 better bottles. Will it be okay to have 4 gallons in a 6 gallon better bottle while lagering or is that too much headspace? Thanks!
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
I'm going to brew this as soon as my Oktoberfest is done lagering. Will it be okay if use Wyeast Munich? Also, I was thinking of doing a 9.5 gallon boil to end up with 8 gallons and split between 2 buckets for primary then transfer to 2 better bottles. Will it be okay to have 4 gallons in a 6 gallon better bottle while lagering or is that too much headspace? Thanks!
Glad to hear you're going to give this a shot! Yep, will be fine using the Wyeast Munich yeast. Just make sure you make a very nice healthy starter.

As for the lagering, personally if you have the capabilities, I'd lager right in a keg under a blanket of C02. I cannot say that lagering 4 gallons in a 6 gallon BB will affect anything or not, but I don't think I'd do it.
 

idigg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Messages
391
Reaction score
12
Location
West Allis
Well, Oktoberfest is done lagering, and I'll be brewing 11 gallons of this Saturday (2 brew sessions unfortunately). Hopefully wyeast munich 2308 yeast will be okay for this as I have 2 starters going for this beer. Cheers.
 

idigg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Messages
391
Reaction score
12
Location
West Allis
First brew is whirlpooling. Hit 1.062 and 5.5 gallons, mashing 2nd brew in 10min. I should have plenty of lager for winter!
 

idigg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Messages
391
Reaction score
12
Location
West Allis
Just bottled 5 gallons and I'm going to keg the other 5 gallons in just a bit. Smelled wonderful. A hoppy lager. Newbeerguy, do you keg by chance? I would like to possibly serve the keg portion next Saturday (12/22). I haven't kegged in awhile, could I put the PSI to 30psi for 30 hours then to 10psi and be able to possibly serve this in 7 days? Thanks!
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
Just bottled 5 gallons and I'm going to keg the other 5 gallons in just a bit. Smelled wonderful. A hoppy lager. Newbeerguy, do you keg by chance? I would like to possibly serve the keg portion next Saturday (12/22). I haven't kegged in awhile, could I put the PSI to 30psi for 30 hours then to 10psi and be able to possibly serve this in 7 days? Thanks!
Yep I do keg. Here is what I do when I carb....I will make sure the beer is cold (lagering temps), transfer to keg. Hook it up to gas 25-30psi. Shake it for 5-10mins. Leave it hooked up at that pressure for 12-24hrs. Turn down to serving psi and vent keg. You should have no problem having it carbed up within the week.
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
21 days @ 52, 30 days @ 42. then do you go straight to a keg and tap?

I'm tempted to do 21 days @ 52 and then lager in the keg @ 42.
Yep I usually lager in a secondary then put it in a keg, but I have done the lagering in the keg as well without issues. It just is easier for me to secondary it.
 

idigg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Messages
391
Reaction score
12
Location
West Allis
Beer was an epic success! Had my family over on Saturday, drank 1 gallon or so from the keg. My dad kept asking for more, it was hilarious. Defintely re-assuring when your family wants more of your brew. Drank another gallon yesterday when wife's family came over. Both of my family's are conservative so this was an accomplishment!

:tank:

I'll be brewing this at LEAST once a year, I love how hoppy it is. So glad I have another 5 gallons in bottles conditioning. Pic below, bad lighting (in man cave) but it is very clear!

Thanks newbeerguy. I'll have to find a six pack of the original to compare.

-justin

 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
Beer was an epic success! Had my family over on Saturday, drank 1 gallon or so from the keg. My dad kept asking for more, it was hilarious. Defintely re-assuring when your family wants more of your brew. Drank another gallon yesterday when wife's family came over. Both of my family's are conservative so this was an accomplishment!

:tank:

I'll be brewing this at LEAST once a year, I love how hoppy it is. So glad I have another 5 gallons in bottles conditioning. Pic below, bad lighting (in man cave) but it is very clear!

Thanks newbeerguy. I'll have to find a six pack of the original to compare.

-justin

Thanks idigg! I am really glad it went over so well. The beer looks great. I actually made another batch of this myself last weekend. It's great to hear that you and your family liked it as much as I do. Cheers! :mug:
 

RUNningonbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
325
Reaction score
35
Just mashed this, mash temp ended at 147, any consequences for it being too low? This is my first lager. Thanks!
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
Just mashed this, mash temp ended at 147, any consequences for it being too low? This is my first lager. Thanks!
It may dry it out a tad, but it really depends on how long it stayed at that temp. Only a 3 degree temp difference over an hour span isn't bad. I wouldn't worry at all!

Make sure you pitch enough yeast an oxygenate well too. If you made enough yeast (400+ billon cells) I'd pitch the yeast at 45-48 degrees and let the fermentation take it up to 50-52. I think that gives the cleanest flavor.
 

RUNningonbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
325
Reaction score
35
I used S23 Dry lager yeast, mr malty says I only need one packet, should i go buy another and pitch it? Also I didn't rehydrate the yeast before pitching, is this going to cause an issue? Thanks.
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
I used S23 Dry lager yeast, mr malty says I only need one packet, should i go buy another and pitch it? Also I didn't rehydrate the yeast before pitching, is this going to cause an issue? Thanks.
I can't really speak for the rehydration on the S23 because I have never used it, but if Mr. Malty's calc said that 1 packet is enough, I am sure it is fine. Only thing I see if that if you started the fermentation cool (under 52) you might experience a longer lag time until active fermentation begins.
 

1Mainebrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
939
Reaction score
38
MrMalty will almost always encourage 2 packs of dry lager yeast for lagers. Make sure you move the selection from "ale" to "Lager." S-23 is very clean and works great in lagers when pitched cool and fermented <54 degrees. It has always taken my lagers longer to clear with S-23 than 2308 (my other go-to lager yeast), but it makes a deliciously crisp lager. Best wishes on that beer!
 

RUNningonbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
325
Reaction score
35
Didn't realize that, I will go buy some more yeast to pitch today, brewed it on Saturday night, no activity in the airlock as of today, hopefully it's not ruined
 

sgraham602

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 27, 2010
Messages
445
Reaction score
34
Location
Matthews
gonna brew this in the next few days. never done a lager before. Do you do a diacetyl rest for this? not sure if wlp830 gives off much.

also, is the yeast nutrient necessary? I've made a starter with 2 vials of wlp830
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
gonna brew this in the next few days. never done a lager before. Do you do a diacetyl rest for this? not sure if wlp830 gives off much.

also, is the yeast nutrient necessary? I've made a starter with 2 vials of wlp830
I usually don't run into diacetyl with 830, but it's worth keeping an eye on. I'd check gravity and for diacetyl at approx 8-12 days. More often than not I don't do one.

As for the yeast nutrient, I use it, is it necessary....probably not. I like the cheap assurance it offers though. Sounds like you are pitching a good amount of yeast....just make sure you oxygenate the wort well. Cheers!
 

RUNningonbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
325
Reaction score
35
So I made this on 12/29 and have it my garage which is a constant 50 degrees, however this Friday and Saturday it is supposed to get up to 60 degrees. I checked the gravity yesterday and it was at 1.03, should I throw it in my fridge (not temp controlled) or should I just let it go? What are the risks?
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
So I made this on 12/29 and have it my garage which is a constant 50 degrees, however this Friday and Saturday it is supposed to get up to 60 degrees. I checked the gravity yesterday and it was at 1.03, should I throw it in my fridge (not temp controlled) or should I just let it go? What are the risks?
It might be close to being finished up by then. The increase in temps will be just in time for a diacetyl rest. I would take another gravity reading Thursday. If it is under 1.023, I'd leave it out in the warmer temps. Since your fridge isn't temp controlled, it will get too cold and could cause the yeast to drop out early.

I think that you are risking more putting it in a fridge than leaving it out. It sounds like it is fermenting nicely and should be reaching the range (2/3 done) of doing a diacetyl rest anways. Good timing for the warm weather to hit! If you fridge it and the yeast drop out, you either will end up with an underattenuated beer, or you'd have to pitch more yeast to drop the gravity.
 

RUNningonbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
325
Reaction score
35
Thanks for the advice, just checked the gravity it's at 1.020, I will let it sit another 2 weeks, then lager it for a month
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
Thanks for the advice, just checked the gravity it's at 1.020, I will let it sit another 2 weeks, then lager it for a month
No prob! Yep, 1.020 is right where it should be for your D-rest. Can't wait to hear how it turns out for you:mug:
 

RUNningonbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
325
Reaction score
35
Do you ever lager in the keg? If so do you put some co2 in to clear the headspace?
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
RUNningonbrew said:
Do you ever lager in the keg? If so do you put some co2 in to clear the headspace?
I have in the past, but lately I just rack to a secondary. Yes I always made sure to hit it with enough gas to deal the lid and clear any headspace O2.
 

RUNningonbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
325
Reaction score
35
Just took another reading, down to 1.016, I like the taste at this point so I think I'm going to throw it in my fridge for lagering for a month. How do you keg this? Force carbonate? Can you use priming sugar, if so what is the process take it back out at room temp?
 
OP
Newbeerguy

Newbeerguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
17
Location
Massillon, Ohio
Just took another reading, down to 1.016, I like the taste at this point so I think I'm going to throw it in my fridge for lagering for a month. How do you keg this? Force carbonate? Can you use priming sugar, if so what is the process take it back out at room temp?
I force carb everything. Yep you can use priming sugar, but you may want to repitch some yeast if you go that route. Yeah, if you were going to prime it, after you're done lagering, pull it out of the fridge and let it warm back to room temp. Add the new yeast (you can use something like US-05 or any neutral yeast since the flavor profile is already set). Add your priming sugar and let sit at room temp for 3 weeks.
 
Top