Electrical wiring questions for spa panel
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augiedoggy
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Yes the normal markup is 75 to 100% over cost... Remember there cost is usually better than home depot prices because they have accounts at supply houses... I used to do maintenance and maintain houses, an apartment building ,plaza and a large restaurant and even we had accounts with discounted rates depending on what we were buying... the estimate often depends on the customer in real life too... many contractors take one look at the customer and say to themselves "What is this guy willing to pay" and how hard is he going to make it to do my job.... Many of these guys would rather you not hang around watching them or asking a lot of questions... I'm not saying they are all like that by any means but its easy to get one like I described above.
Fatman_Brew
Well-Known Member
Of course all service industry/trades costs are better than retail, no secret there. I am not sure how relevant that is to the topic. To assume if you can go to store X and pay Y does not mean if you hire someone to do the same for you they are going to charge you the same or less.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Exactly.... That what I was saying... We are discussing costs and high estimates I totally feel its worth mentioning... The op can always buy much of the supplies Herself and get another estimate from somewhere else with less of a markup.
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ChocolateMaltyBalls
Well-Known Member
Not much question that the code requires them to be there but the bigger question is as to whether they enhance or decrease safety.
Singlepole
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Chest Freezer 2 amps X 120 volts = 240W
Space heater and A/C will not run at the same time so only the largest one counts 11 amps X 120 volts = 1320W
2 5500 watt heating elements = 11000W
2 chugger pumps running at 3 amps 3 amps X 240 volts = 720W
iPhone plugged in at all times which acts as a camera too small to count
Lights and outlets in shed is calculated by shed size but I will assume about 800W
Total watts = 14080 X 1.25 (to meet rules) = 17600W
Total Amps = 17600W / 240V (nominal voltage) = 73.3 amps
Min wire size to feed 73.3 amps is #6 AWG
#6 is rated for 75 amps so maximum breaker size for it would be 75, but since they dont really make a 75 amp breaker the next size would be 80 which would be allowable but hard to find, so your choices would be to drop to a 70 Amp breaker and run #6 wire to your shed or up to 100A and run #3 to you shed, 3 conductor #2 aluminum will not be much more or maybe less than 3 conductor #6 copper and the extra amperage will leave room for expansion in the future.
I am an electrician in Canada, but our calculations are done the same.
Space heater and A/C will not run at the same time so only the largest one counts 11 amps X 120 volts = 1320W
2 5500 watt heating elements = 11000W
2 chugger pumps running at 3 amps 3 amps X 240 volts = 720W
iPhone plugged in at all times which acts as a camera too small to count
Lights and outlets in shed is calculated by shed size but I will assume about 800W
Total watts = 14080 X 1.25 (to meet rules) = 17600W
Total Amps = 17600W / 240V (nominal voltage) = 73.3 amps
Min wire size to feed 73.3 amps is #6 AWG
#6 is rated for 75 amps so maximum breaker size for it would be 75, but since they dont really make a 75 amp breaker the next size would be 80 which would be allowable but hard to find, so your choices would be to drop to a 70 Amp breaker and run #6 wire to your shed or up to 100A and run #3 to you shed, 3 conductor #2 aluminum will not be much more or maybe less than 3 conductor #6 copper and the extra amperage will leave room for expansion in the future.
I am an electrician in Canada, but our calculations are done the same.
Singlepole
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In Canada there are two methods of doing this,
You can run 3C cable without ground and use a plate or rods, and treat the shed as if it was a new service.
Or you can run a 3C cable with ground, and the panel would be treated as a sub panel, bonding screw would be removed.
My two cents, now I am done
You can run 3C cable without ground and use a plate or rods, and treat the shed as if it was a new service.
Or you can run a 3C cable with ground, and the panel would be treated as a sub panel, bonding screw would be removed.
My two cents, now I am done
Fatman_Brew
Well-Known Member
Those questions are outside my pay grade. If I am held to X, I must do X.
OP
OP
Hello
Well-Known Member
When I priced everything I was thinking or seeing how much it would cost me to do the job. I am going to have them install the main and run the wire to the shed at least so that I'm not touching that. I need to research what the two pole ground thing is. I really want to get this started.
kpr121
Well-Known Member
Hello, a big SORRY in my previous post(s), I shouldnt have made assumptions!
Are you planning to talk to any other electricians to get alternate quotes?
OP
OP
Hello
Well-Known Member
Hello, a big SORRY in my previous post(s), I shouldnt have made assumptions!
Are you planning to talk to any other electricians to get alternate quotes?
Well, if it bugged me at all I would have corrected you.
No worries from me here.
So I've had a couple of quotes and they're all within the same price range, I have one more guy coming today and that will likely be the last quote I'll try and get. I've asked the electrician that has done work at my house before if they can break the quote up more for me leaving considering for me to do the work in the shed myself. I have not heard back. My frustration grows as I figured it would because the shed sits there and I cannot do anything to it until the electrical is in. I'm not comfortable messing with my main. I've looked at the ground pole installation and I haven't quite figured out why I need two since there is only one panel. If the concept is that I need one for each service, then that makes a little more sense. One goes with the 110v and the other with the 240v. I still need to figure out where that all runs to within the panel from the ground. YouTube showed me how I can install the poles myself with effort.
Looking at pricing for materials, obviously I can save a ton doing this myself. I think if I can just get someone to do the main, I will be able to figure the rest out. I do have to have an inspection so at least if I do something that is utterly stupid, I will be able to know right away. What I didn't realize was that electrical will be more than the shed itself. Original quotes went out the door when I realized i needed more than 50a. I'm halfway kicking myself for getting the shed now but I'd be in a semi similar predicament if I had stuck this in my garage as that has only one outlet and a light. I'd still need the panel and other outlets and likely the grounding poles.
You all have been a big help so far. This is a patient bunch for sure!
The two ground rods are standard because there is now guarantee that one (or two for that matter) will supply sufficient grounding in all types of soil. Just be glad you do not have to use "alternative" grounding methods as those get expensive quick.
As for the rest, you may need to step back for a minute.
The cost of materials can be deceptive but there is usually no doubt it will cost at least a little more having the professional supply them. That being said, as an knowledgeable non-professional I often find myself using more expensive options to make my life easier.
On your hesitance tapping into your main panel, can we isolate your concern? Is it working int he "live" breaker box or something else? Is the panel surface mounted or flush mounted? How will your new 6 or 8 ga wire be fed to the Main panel (knock-out on the bottom of surface mounted breaker box is easiest)? What kind of soil do you have (for driving the ground rod)? Finally, is your meter (the round plexiglass bowl in the main line before the breaker box) an old-fashion mechanical counter or a fancy remote monitored digital thing?
If money is your primary concern after safety, we can find a way for you to do all this work safely. This is likely to be a lot of work and maybe one new tool plus the rental of a second but it is not truly difficult.
You actually don't need any (per NEC) if you only run a single branch circuit out there but local code may require it. But assuming you did need a grounding electrode there it would have to have an impedance to ground of less than 25 Ω and if it doesn't then a second electrode needs to be driven. You might think the pair would then have to exhibit < 25 Ω impedance to ground but they don't. So the electrician has two choices:
1) Shell out $1800 for a ground electrode impedance meter, drive a rod, check it's impedance and if necessary drive a second rod.
2) Drive two rods. Bill customer for two marked up rods.
Which would you choose if you were the electrician?
Edit: I guess I should add that the modern method of testing ground rod impedance is much simpler (and thus quicker) than the old method so that the capital cost of the tester is probably a bigger concern than the extra labor time.
Another consideration is that the electrician in your area is presumably familiar with the local conditions and may already know with fairly high certainty that the second rod is necessary.
I am 99% sure the last two NEC's do require it for residential detached buildings.
It does but there is an exception:
"Exception: A grounding electrode shall not be required where only a single branch circuit, including a multiwire branch circuit, supplies the building or structure and the branch circuit includes an equipment grounding conductor for grounding the normally non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment"
"Exception: A grounding electrode shall not be required where only a single branch circuit, including a multiwire branch circuit, supplies the building or structure and the branch circuit includes an equipment grounding conductor for grounding the normally non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment"
Slight thread degradation:
Is it still considered a single branch circuit if we are including a subpanel, even if it is spa panel with branch circuits of its own? This is honest curiosity on my part.
AFAIK, yes. A branch circuit is: "The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s)." This doesn't say, to me, anything about limitations on what you might or might not connect to the circuit except the implications are that it must be outlets. But we also have "Appliance Branch Circuits", "General Purpose Branch Circuits", "Individual Branch Circuits" and "Multiwire Branch Circuits". Someone might read all these and observe that outlets, single pieces of equipment, and appliances are all mentioned, that luminaires are specifically excluded and that as spa panels aren't mentioned, they are not included. Sometimes you have to read this stuff more as a lawyer would than an engineer. The reading that counts, of course, is the inspector's.
Note that I am not advocating eliminating these rods as a matter of convenience, reduced expense or safety. The widely admired Mike Holt would probably say not to put them in as, in the event of lightening strike near the outbuilding the local ground potential would be transferred over the grounding conductor to the main building. But I'd note that in the event of an open primary side neutral on the pole primary current will return to the substation through the local ground rods and the more of them you have the lower the grounding conductor potential will be above ground. Both unlikely events so....?
Note that I am not advocating eliminating these rods as a matter of convenience, reduced expense or safety. The widely admired Mike Holt would probably say not to put them in as, in the event of lightening strike near the outbuilding the local ground potential would be transferred over the grounding conductor to the main building. But I'd note that in the event of an open primary side neutral on the pole primary current will return to the substation through the local ground rods and the more of them you have the lower the grounding conductor potential will be above ground. Both unlikely events so....?
Fatman_Brew
Well-Known Member
From main panel to a sub panel (with derived branch circuits) in a detached structure is a "Feed" circuit and requires separate grounding.
From main panel to a disconnect in a detached structure is a "Branch" circuit.
From main panel to a disconnect in a detached structure is a "Branch" circuit.
OP
OP
Hello
Well-Known Member
I just had this conversation, only a little more muddied, yesterday with a guy. From what I can understand, the answer is yes.
Let the rambling begin...
I ran into this issue where electricians do not want to just do the work on the main and pull the wire through and then let me run with it. Their issue is with the permit and which license number is on the permit. I've talked to them and said I'd pull the permit ($90 BTW but most are asking $150 for their time) and I'd sub out the work to them. No one is willing to touch that idea with a 8 foot ground rod.
I spoke to a guy yesterday who is sending another guy back here this weekend, a licensed electrician still but he is a home brewer, so this may be what I need. Someone who understands my needs. He didn't seem opposed to the idea of letting me join in the fun. I'm starting to understand a lot more, but still unwilling to mess with my main. I took the panel off and there is no room to run wiring downward like everything else is (including the main feed to the box). therefore, I have to either go up, out and down, or straight out the back and down. There is a maximum number of turns I can make before I need another junction box, per code. Right now they're figuring 5 turns, I'm counting 4 if we go out the back.
Point here is I've referenced this thread so much that I am feeling more confident about this and without you all chiming in, I wouldn't have known much of this. Of course @islandlizard has also read through my rambling PMs and helped outside this thread.
Eventually, once I know work is going to begin, I will be able to start my build thread and all the fun will start. I did learn that the shed people didn't put a ridge vent on the roof. It was an extra item that I simply didn't consider. With vented soffits, once I drywall and use baffles, there is no place for the air to go. I'm trying to reach the shed guys now in hopes that I can get this taken care of without hitting the pocketbook too hard.
Well after looking into it further I have to say I think the answer is "No". If a building is supplied by a feeder then the exception does not apply and a feeder is "All circuit conductors between the service equipment, the source of a separately derived system or other power supply source and the final branch circuit overcurrent device." The key phrase here seems to be the one I've italicised. Thus if you ran wiring from a breaker in your main panel to a disconnect such as are used to feed air conditioners and wired the disconnect to an outlet in the building you would have a branch circuit and the exception would apply even if you plugged a spa panel into that outlet. OTOH if you installed a fused disconnect or a spa panel or a sub panel then the presence of the current limiting devices in those make the circuit a feeder and the exception no longer applies.
OP
OP
Hello
Well-Known Member
An update:
I did a lot of reading and started feeling pretty confident about doing much of the work on my own. I ran into a large issue where electricians did not want to simply install the 100a breaker into my panel, disconnect the 20a 240v service I had installed in my kitchen last march, and pull the wire to the outside allowing me to carry on with the work. There wasn't a company out there willing to use their license to pull the permit and do that.
I spoke to the Town in great length, even going to the town to discuss with drawings and such about my plan. I was using the PJ diagrams posted here to illustrate my intentions. They said I could pull the permit and sub out whatever I didn't want to do. 4 electricians again declined my offer. In the end, I understood.
My next step was to consider doing it myself entirely, but I did not feel comfortable swapping around things and disconnecting other things within my panel. I have to draw the line somewhere. So I simply decided on which company I wanted to use and they're going to start work shortly. There was a fairly large delay which resulted in me choosing another company, so that was frustrating as I cannot do anything to the shed until there is electrical. Drywall and insulation is next. Either way, I believe the work may start this week if the weather is okay for them to drive here. The bigger issue is trenching the wire because the ground is now frozen. Of course, the cost is much higher than I wanted to pay, but I have little choice as every quote was within $100-$175 of one another.
Thank you all for your help. I learned a great deal and it will be helpful to be able to watch what the electrician is doing and know if it is right. I was already able to identify a company's attempt to sell me on work that was unnecessary and did try to double dip.
Soon I will start my brewery build thread, once there is more movement than just the shed appearing on my property.
I did a lot of reading and started feeling pretty confident about doing much of the work on my own. I ran into a large issue where electricians did not want to simply install the 100a breaker into my panel, disconnect the 20a 240v service I had installed in my kitchen last march, and pull the wire to the outside allowing me to carry on with the work. There wasn't a company out there willing to use their license to pull the permit and do that.
I spoke to the Town in great length, even going to the town to discuss with drawings and such about my plan. I was using the PJ diagrams posted here to illustrate my intentions. They said I could pull the permit and sub out whatever I didn't want to do. 4 electricians again declined my offer. In the end, I understood.
My next step was to consider doing it myself entirely, but I did not feel comfortable swapping around things and disconnecting other things within my panel. I have to draw the line somewhere. So I simply decided on which company I wanted to use and they're going to start work shortly. There was a fairly large delay which resulted in me choosing another company, so that was frustrating as I cannot do anything to the shed until there is electrical. Drywall and insulation is next. Either way, I believe the work may start this week if the weather is okay for them to drive here. The bigger issue is trenching the wire because the ground is now frozen. Of course, the cost is much higher than I wanted to pay, but I have little choice as every quote was within $100-$175 of one another.
Thank you all for your help. I learned a great deal and it will be helpful to be able to watch what the electrician is doing and know if it is right. I was already able to identify a company's attempt to sell me on work that was unnecessary and did try to double dip.
Soon I will start my brewery build thread, once there is more movement than just the shed appearing on my property.
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