Electric vs. Gas... Anyone done the comparison?

[Anthony_Lopez]

We are building a new brewery, and I really want to go electric so we can move inside during the winter and not worry about carbon monoxide build up from propane. I'd love to hear some people chime in on the price comparison of electric vs. propane.

One of my brew partners is worried about his electric bill going up since we are building this in his basement...

 

[Walker]

In one of the threads talking about electric, I think someone said that they had determined that it cost them less than $2 to brew a batch with electricity compared to $5 or $6 with propane.

I have not tried to measure how much my electric system costs on a brew day, but I'd be willing to bet that there is no way propane is cheaper.

 

[stevehaun]

I make 35 gallon batches. My HLT and BK each have two 4500 watt elements but I never run the HLT and BK at the same time. If I run my system for 8 hours and I pay about $0.10 per KWH it will cost about $7.20 per batch.

8 hours X 9 ilowatts X $0.10/KWH = $7.20.

Propane refills cost me between $15 and $20 per tank. I am not sure I could do a single batch with one tank.

 

[Randar]

And to that point, I would venture a guess that Natural Gas is cheaper than electricity. at least here in Chicago. If I were to brew overnight when my real-time pricing was lowest, it would probably be cheaper, but that's not really feasible for me.

edit: I currently do 10-15 gallon batches and a propane tank lasts me ~2.5 batches.

edit2: Propane cost is expensive due to packaging/delivery option with those tanks and refills. Natural gas is usually around 50 cents per therm. electricity at 10 cents/kWh is roughly equivalent to $2.93 per therm. Even if your electric setup is near 100% efficient as compared to natural gas and your cost per kWh is only 5 cents, it still is cheaper to use NG. This is all based on some conversion factors found on the interwebs, so add requisite grains of NaCl

 

[OneHotKarl]

I weight my propane before/after each batch I brew and I calculate a little under $2.00/batch with a bayou classic burner and keggle. I do use my kitchen stove for heating strike water, so that does save a bit. Also, the $2.00 seems to not change much with a 5 or 10 gallon batch; I'm at work so I don't have access to my data.

Or you can do a thermo balance on water heated and figure the math on it this way:
q=m*cP*dT =
=12gal*8.34lb/gal*1btu/lb*(212-60degF)=
~=15,000btu

for 12 gallons of water from 60degF to 212degF. The ~30lb stainless keg requires about 500btu to go from 60 to 212degF. From here you would do the math for the burner (estimate 60% efficiency) and compare to the electric wattage and time.

 

[jeffmeh]

If I were building a new brewery for indoor/outdoor use I would definitely go electric. Apart from being quieter, more efficient, cooler, free of potentially dangerous CO emissions (but of course, with potentially dangerous current), the costs will likely be better than propane. Even so, I would certainly pay an extra $5 per brew session for electric, particularly in the dead of winter.

Take that for what it is worth, from a turkey fryer on cinder blocks guy.

 

[Ranger9913]

It cost me a $1.65 to run a MLT and BK with 5500watt elements for 5 gallon batches. Brewing with electricity has changed everything about my brewing experience for the better. No running out of propane, no heat from the flames, perfectly controlled temps, no noise from burners, I can insulate kettles, easy to clean and get hot PBW water flowing. I will never go back to propane. $22 a tank in town and you're lucky if you get 15lbs from it.

 

[Walker]

I weight my propane before/after each batch I brew and I calculate a little under $2.00/batch with a bayou classic burner and keggle.

That's pretty good for propane. Are you getting it cheap, or are you just very efficient with it? Maybe a little of both?

I always bought propane at the Blue Rhino exchange places, so I'm sure I was getting ripped off to some extent, but I was able to get 3, maybe 4, batches out of a $20 tank.

 

[jfkriege]

The price comparison usually shows electricity to be roughly equal to or better than natural gas in my area, and way better than propane. The ability to brew inside during winters and not care about CO makes the price difference irrelevant. If you are in MA, then this is even a bigger deal than in Indiana.

No one switched to electric just for the savings in fuel (especially if they had natural gas around). There are many other reasons, however, to make the switch. I would also point out that I have never once heard of a brewer going from electric back to gas. Ever.

 

[OneHotKarl]

That's pretty good for propane. Are you getting it cheap, or are you just very efficient with it? Maybe a little of both?

I always bought propane at the Blue Rhino exchange places, so I'm sure I was getting ripped off to some extent, but I was able to get 3, maybe 4, batches out of a $20 tank.

Last time I purchased propane it was $2.89/gallon, when I filled 2 tanks. When I fill 2 tanks at a time give me a $0.10/gallon discount. I use the cast iron bayou classic burner and never turn it up to 100%. I feel the most cost efficient way to run it about 75%. I would like to add a heat shield on the burner to see if that improves anything...but I doubt it will do anything.

Here are my numbers for a 10 gallon batch in the summertime (80degF outside):
2.71lb of propane / 4.24 lb/gallon * $2.89/gallon = $1.85

Keep in mind when you swap for a Blue Rhino tank system you only get about 3.5-4gallons (or so I was told) for ~$20...that equals $5/gallon at best. I used to do that until I did the math.

 

[Randar]

Most of these posts seem to only be considering propane as opposed to NG. NG is dirt cheap mos of the year for me.

I personally would not be opposed to going electric and have the requisite comfort level working with it, but just don't have the motivation to switch.

 

[babalu87]

Most of these posts seem to only be considering propane as opposed to NG. NG is dirt cheap mos of the year for me.

I personally would not be opposed to going electric and have the requisite comfort level working with it, but just don't have the motivation to switch.

Then why are you using propane?

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

I think going to NG is not as easy as going to electric. Some houses don't have access to NG, so it's not even an option... Electric and Propane are readily available to anyone with a brew space.

I really appreciate everyone's opinions on the subject. It has already helped to make up our mind on the switch. Time to start collecting parts : )

 

[Randar]

Then why are you using propane?

Because I am to lazy to plumb my gas line to my current brewing location. It's the same reason I don't have an all-electric set-up now (My current service is also about maxed out at the moment, so there is a significant cost to upgrade to all-electric due to capital investment there in a new service/panel). My current set-up is still being revised and I don't feel like committing to either change without a more stable long term plan. The cost of the fuel, for me, is not a huge consideration compared to maintaining the flexibility.

 

[Randar]

I think going to NG is not as easy as going to electric. Some houses don't have access to NG, so it's not even an option...

Really? I don't know many people except for rural folks who don't have NG service. If you live in a decently sized metropolitan area, I would guess most folks have NG for their primary heating fuel source.

 

[Walker]

The cost of the fuel, for me, is not a huge consideration compared to maintaining the flexibility.

Flexibility was one thing I considered when I built my eHERMS because I sometimes haul my equipment to friends' houses and brew there. That becomes a problem if you need to plug into a 240V outlet.

I ended up keeping my HLT as a non-electric vessel. It's just my old propane boiling keggle with a removable insulation jacket on it. I use the electric BK for the HERMS water bath during the masg and then just temporarily transfer the hot water from BK to HLT before taking my MLT runnings to the BK.


Now if I want to brew on the road, I take the insulation off that older non-electric keggle and use it as my propane BK.

There is room in my control panel to add another leg of power for another element, so I might build a RIMS tube at some point. I'll be able to do HERMS, RIMS, or 'normal' mashing on the same system.

 

[drez77]

Really? I don't know many people except for rural folks who don't have NG service. If you live in a decently sized metropolitan area, I would guess most folks have NG for their primary heating fuel source.

I know NG is not available for me unless I want tanks and I would not consider my area that rural.

 

[Randar]

Interesting. Maybe that is a more common issue in the northeast? Here in the Midwest most have access to NG.

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

I'm also in MA and we don't have NG in our town. I live in a very affluent part of the state as well.

 

[jeffmeh]

In MA here also, and we do have natural gas, but that is the exception rather than the rule. It has only really been in the last 20 years that builders ran natural gas on a fairly regular basis. Older houses tend to have oil or electric heat.

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree that NG vs Electric in pure variable costs would be a wash. NG is much cheaper per BTU but the efficiency is less than 40%. It's also hard to estimate electric brewing usage because the elements in a well designed system are not always on.

 

[JuanMoore]

After the two major gas shortages of the 1970's ('73 & '79), many developers stopped providing natural gas service to their subdivisions. It varies some by location, but a large portion of metropolitan neighborhoods built in the late 70's or early 80's do not have NG service. The only homes around here built in that era that have NG had it added by a homeowner at some later point.

 

[jeffmeh]

After the two major gas shortages of the 1970's ('73 & '79), many developers stopped providing natural gas service to their subdivisions. It varies some by location, but a large portion of metropolitan neighborhoods built in the late 70's or early 80's do not have NG service. The only homes around here built in that era that have NG had it added by a homeowner at some later point.

True. The first house we bought in MA, built in the '70s, had electric baseboard heating, was sealed up as tight as a drum, and was very expensive to heat. We supplemented with a coal stove. The house we are in now, built in '93, has natural gas.

The much older houses had wood or coal furnaces, and many were converted to oil at some point. During WWII oil rationing, some even converted back to coal. After that conversions to oil or natural gas were common, but natural gas was only a fiscally viable option if the lines were already on the street.

 

[passedpawn]

I pay 14¢ per kWh (combined energy and fuel costs). 5500W element. 11g batch (13g boil) Heres the numbers for my brewday:

Process                 Time (min)	Duty Cycle %	Energy (kWh)    Cost
Heat Water		30		100		2.75		$0.37
Get To Boil		20		100		1.83            $0.25
Boil		        60		75		4.125		$0.56
								
							Total Cost	$1.18

 

[Bobby_M]

Passed, no mash maintain energy? RIMS?

 

[Walker]

Passed, no mash maintain energy? RIMS?

It's probably in the noise. I've been paying a little attention to how long and how often the element in my HERMS system is powered up during the mash and it's hardly doing much. I would guess that it's on for only a few minutes total during the hour long mash.

edit: but it's probably worth counting the power consumption of the pump during the mash.

 

[passedpawn]

Passed, no mash maintain energy? RIMS?

Nope. I have the coil for the HERMS, and one day I'll go ahead and get it in there. I'm intrigued by step mashes but really I don't think I'll gain much by doing it. I like gadgets and making them overly complex, so I'm sure I'll do it sooner or later.

I've got two mash tuns: the igloo in the pic, and another keggle wrapped with Reflectix. Both hold temps pretty well.

 

[conpewter]

I've run the analysis on my setup and calculated that I use about $1.60 worth of electricity for a 5 gallon batch. I didn't want to run natural gas lines as I'm more comfortable with electric (CO issues etc).

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

IMO propane's advantage is portability. If you want to be able to brew anywhere, go with propane (or a 120VAC system). All gas types can be automated so that is a wash. I have been very happy with the electric brewery I am currently using, it is easy to use in or out of doors.

I am undecided which way I will go when I build another system. I really like the electric and think I am leaning that way. No noise, no fumes, cheap to run, never run out of gas or have low pressure problems because the furnace kicks on... etc.

 

[prosper]

wow, some of you are paying a LOT more for propane than I do, or have much less efficient burners. I get about 10x6 gallon brews out of a $15 tank.

Eventually I do plan on going electric, but certainly NOT for any sort of cost savings (which would take a helluvalot of batches).

 

[JuanMoore]

How about solar powered brewing?

http://***********/component/resource/article/2063-last-call-solar-brewing

I have a friend who's trying to create a completely green brewing system. His grain mill and pump are currently human powered (hooked up to an exercise bike). I'm on the lookout for a broken projection TV I can steal the fresnel lens out of for him.

 

[prosper]

human-powered grinding and pumping? Why do I get the feeling that's not as fun as it sounds?

 

[hamiltont]

Here's a thought for all the electricians...

Some mention the cost of running a 220V outlet would be cost prohibitive. Couldn't a person manufacture an extension cord per say with (help me here) 6, 8, or ? gauge and run it from their dryer or stove receptacle to their brewing location? I'm assuming distance is a factor as well.

 

[Ranger9913]

I ran 90ft of 6/3 and it cost about $200.00 with fittings. I did purchase the cable at an electrical supply house as a contractor. Home Depot would have been much more expensive.

 

[hamiltont]

I guess if I did it I'd only have to go ~15' due to the proximity of my brewing space & the dryer. But what you're saying does work then...

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

This has turned into a great conversation on the benefits of all types of brewing. Even if we go all electric, we still have a burner and a keggle for portability.