Electric Brewing

[jacobdaughtry]

Considering using electric in all 3 kettles (HLT, MLT, and boiling kettle). I would add a mixer to the MLT and boiling kettle to prevent scorching. The element in the MLT would only be needed to maintain the temperature. I thinking of this setup instead of doing the RIMS or HERMS. Has anyone seen this setup or have any suggestions, comments, or criticisms. Information on specs(elements, PID controller, solid state relays) would be greatly appreciated. I have 3 - 15.5 gallon kegs and have cut off the tops. Just need to finish the conversion.

 

[keiths]

I use all electric, I have 3 -4500watt 240 volt Water heater elements.1 in each keg. I have a mixer made up for the MLT keg only, U dont need one for the Boil.
I have never had any problems with scorching w/ this set up.I use 3 Pids to control the heat in ea. keg. Plus a March pump for transfering the wort around and use a CFC to cool it all down. I would NEVER go back to LP gas. Electric is so much nicer and cleaner. At least it works for me.

 

[AiredAle]

JD:

I'm in the planning and gathering stages of an all electric 2 keggle system myself. Up front, three safety practices to consider: GFCI circuit breakers for all power to the system, excessive grounding of everything, and positive isolation of 240 V heater elements if that's what you plan to use. Controlling one leg of a 240 circuit will open the circuit but still leave the other leg energized.

I will use an igloo cooler for my mash tun. I bought most of my control devices off eBay.

For my HLT I will use a Love PID controller with a relay contactor and a thermocouple to control a 240V/4000W hot tub heater. I plan to put a motorized stirrer in it to eliminate temperature stratification. Can't post pics or plans, don't have them yet. Oh, I will also have a dpst 30A switch to positively shut off the current to the heating element. Thinking about having some sort of level switch in the system so I don't dry fire the heater element, but not clear on which one, or how.

For my boil kettle, I plan on using a 240V/4500W ultralow watt density water heater element, controlled by a PWM dc motor controller to fire a solid state contactor and not a PID controller since I want 100% power to get to boiling then want a simple way to dial it back to less than 100% for a steady boil. Will also use a 30A dpst switch to isolate the element in a positive fashion.

There is a lot of good expertise and advice on this and other brew forums, do a search on any of them, and google for things like "electric hlt" or electric bk", etc. Most of what I have summarized here I have learned from others who have done this first, although I might be first to use spa heaters, don't really know, haven't seen any mention of them yet.

Good luck, keep us posted on your progress.

 

[germanskyy]

I'm very interested in hearing more on this thread. I too have a 15.5 sanke with the top cut off and about to have my couplings welded on shortly. I'm not interested in using a PID controller just yet though, just the 240V heating element and a 30A rated switch for now. I believe 240V GFCIs are expensive, much more so than 120V. Also I live in an apt. so modifying outlets is not an option. I think I'm just going to ground it good and like Aired Ale said, I'm gonna use a switch that turns off both the hot and cold legs (double pole single throw). Welcome any advise out there please

 

[stevehaun]

Most PIDs have a manual mode that you can use to dial in % power. I start out with mine at 100% power until the boil starts and then dial back to 65-70% power depending on ambient temperature. This is very simple and only requires one controller for both HLT and BK.
You can safely control only one limb of a 240 vac circuit but you must be able to turn off both limbs with a double pole switch. I have a 30 amp double pole switch upstream from the SSR.

 

[somecallmetim]

I'm very interested in hearing more on this thread. I too have a 15.5 sanke with the top cut off and about to have my couplings welded on shortly. I'm not interested in using a PID controller just yet though, just the 240V heating element and a 30A rated switch for now. I believe 240V GFCIs are expensive, much more so than 120V. Also I live in an apt. so modifying outlets is not an option. I think I'm just going to ground it good and like Aired Ale said, I'm gonna use a switch that turns off both the hot and cold legs (double pole single throw). Welcome any advise out there please

Both legs are hot for 220, I don't want to be a jerk here, but if you don't know that I would recomend finding someone local to look over your system before you throw the switch. I'll step off my soapbox now.

Since you live in an apt. do you have acess to the breaker panel? Or are you planning to plug your setup into the stove or dryer outlet? I seem to remeber seeing an extention cord with a built in GFI that someone had here... If you are using it just for your HLT a swtch is doable, If you want to use it for the boil kettle you will need a controler of some sort to control your boil, 4500w into 10 gal of wort will make it boil like mad...

 

[jacobdaughtry]

When I go looking for a PID controller I don't know which model to choose. I think I want to go with the 240 volt 4500 watt heating element. Can anyone advise me with which PID controller(s) to pick? Prices vary and I don't know how to sort through the various models. Also, for the thermocouple I was looking on Ebay and found one with a 3 & a 6 inch probe, would this suffice or does it need to go to the center of the barrel for both the boiling kettle and the MLT? What is the difference between a Type-J and Type-K thermocouple? Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

 

[keiths]

This is the palce I bought mine from....http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=14
I use the K-type probe I bought from them, you just drill a hole in the side of the keg and the probe which is just a small nub has a nut that srews on from the inside, all SS of course. I also got the 25a SSR's from them.Just call them they are real helpful and know what you will need, they told me that they sell to a lot of homebrewers.
Hope this helps

 

[jacobdaughtry]

Thanks Keiths for your input!
Why did you decide to got with the 1/32 vs the 1/16 PID? Do you find the two displays not necessary?
For the mixer I was considering just using an old 1/2" drill. I don't think it would burn out the motor. Has anyone thought about doing this? What type of motors are you guys using?
Thanks Guys!

 

[keiths]

Well the reason I went with the 1/32 was I tought that is all that I needed, But If I had to do it over I would go with the 1/16. I use a used wiper motor from a car attached to one of the old tops I cut from the kegs. Its 12v so I use a old computer Power Supply to run it, I made a stir paddle out of a coup[le of the dip tubes and welded them together to form a ( T ). Works like a charm..

 

[wihophead]

The basic difference in thermocouples are the temperature ranges and accuracy at given temperatures. I would recommend a type T thermocouple to measure boiling water. We use them hear to monitor oil temperature in our diffusion pumps so I have easy access to them...lol

 

[jacobdaughtry]

So you need an automobile DC battery to run your wiper motor? Do you have any pics of your setup? especially the mixer and how you attached to the motor and drive? You built the paddle out of the dip tube? I have been thinking it would come to good use. I almost threw it out last weekend. My wife was getting on my case for not cleaning up the garage. If a man can't have his garage as his own then what does he have left of the house? Not a dang thing.

 

[germanskyy]

Both legs are hot for 220, I don't want to be a jerk here, but if you don't know that I would recomend finding someone local to look over your system before you throw the switch. I'll step off my soapbox now.

Thanks Tim, I certainly will have someone look at everything before I try using it. This is very much a learning experience for me. I was looking at using heatsticks for a long time because I know I don't know enough to safely use 240V. Luckily my uncle is an electrician and will check this for me. I definitely am in over my head when it comes to PIDs.

 

[jacobdaughtry]

Does anyone have any wiring diagrams of their work???

I am rethinking the 3 tank setup and maybe just using two tanks instead (leaving out the HLT) and heating up HLT water in BK transferring with pump to MLT since I think that the scorching may not be an issue.

With the 3rd tank I am considering turning it into a fermentor. Has anyone done this?

Thanks,
JD

 

[neo82087]

check out the DIY section, I was asking the same question and put up some diagrams that got critiqued by some more knowledgeable people.

 

[keiths]

No I dont use a Battery I use a Computer Power supply, they convert 110v down to 12v. And are free at least for me they are. I dont have a wire dig. My Brother inlaw is a Sparky he set the wiring up for me. I will try and take some pics this weekend of my setup and post them for you.

 

[Tybo]

I am running a new electrical setup using a 240V/4500W water heater element in the boil kettle. I made two batches so far and there is some copper showing off on the heater element (it is a standard zinc-plated copper heater element).

I assumed that a heater that was safe to use in a water tank would also be safe to use for brewing. Now that I realize that plating is coming off, I am really concerned about the potential toxicity of my last batches.

What type of element are you using with your electrical setup and did you experienced something similar ?

Thanks,
Tybo

 

[jacobdaughtry]

Did you use the low density designed element?

 

[Tybo]

I used a regular "high density" element. I know that wort scorching may occur with those but it didn't happen in my case. I suspect the acidity of the wort being the responsible for the zinc dissolution.

I ordered a low density element made from Incoloy. Incoloy has a better resistance to acids. Do any of you are using Incoloy instead of copper/zinc?

 

[slnies]

since we are all on the subject of RIMs I have a question to throw out there. If we are using extra low density heating elements, wouldn't the wort in a direct contact RIMs set up be safe? I see people on the forum talking about the benefits of low density elements and how well they work. So would this solve the caramelization tendency with this type of system?

My suggestion for control is to use a pid. If you want a recommendation on brand, all I have to say is pick the one that trips your trigger. If it does what you want, it is easy to use, and it is reliable, then "let, have at her!". As far as matching your equipment up I would choose a PID with a relay out put and then connect it to a ssr. Make sure that when you buy the ssr that the control, or coil voltage matches the PID relay out put voltage. I hope this helps.

 

[jacobdaughtry]

I have been told that one should go with the low density or extra low density element when boiling the wort. Here is the element that I am waiting on in the mail that others from brewboard have recommended: http://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/water-heater-element-02953.jpg
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/elements.html
My impression is that the "high density" element isn't designed to run at boiling temperatures for a prolonged period of time. I'll ask the guys on brewboard to see what they think.

 

[jacobdaughtry]

Thanks Nies for your reply regarding the PID/SSR. I finally have decided to go with one on the Auberins website. Picked up the 25 amp SSR, heat sink, and a thermocouple to go along with it.

I am not sure I quite understand your question. I will not be doing the RIMS to start off with. Maybe eventually. I have been told that as long as the MLT is properly insulated then using the RIMS isn't necessary if doing single infusion mashing. Where exactly are you referring to the caramalization is occurring? Inside the copper tubing?
Jd from Jax

 

[jacobdaughtry]

Here is one reply from George Schmidt our moderator on brewboard. I totally respect his opinion:
I don't remember what my element was made of. It was never shiny like the 1500W high-density I have for my heat stick, but was dark gray from the start. I'd have to seriously question his setup, though, since I've scorched wort with just that 1500W and I know DJ has even scorched wort with a low-density (as opposed to ultralow) when the wort gravity was higher.

If his element was shiny zinc, it was probably corroded by the wort. I know galvanized equipment should be avoided because it will corrode in wort, and those elements are basically galvanized. The zinc is intended to be a sacrificial anode in the big battery that is element-wort-pot.


I will post any other responses as they come. Hope this helps Tybo.

JD

 

[slnies]

Thanks Nies for your reply regarding the PID/SSR. I finally have decided to go with one on the Auberins website. Picked up the 25 amp SSR, heat sink, and a thermocouple to go along with it.

I am not sure I quite understand your question. I will not be doing the RIMS to start off with. Maybe eventually. I have been told that as long as the MLT is properly insulated then using the RIMS isn't necessary if doing single infusion mashing. Where exactly are you referring to the caramalization is occurring? Inside the copper tubing?
Jd from Jax

Ya, pretty much. I guess a lot of people have been using the element in the tub and recirc. but some have mixed results. There is a gentlemen that brews some award winning porters that has his rig here on the web and he swears by his set up. The only thing that i can determine is that he under powers larger elements to get an in between wattage. I want to say he uses a 3500w EL density element that runs at two twenty and powers it 110v and if I do the math right with the resistance of the element you get 930w to 990w. I wonder if it is the combination of low wattage and a PID that achieves this or is he just lucky? O, and I am glad I could help. S.

 

[wihophead]

if I do the math right with the resistance of the element you get 930w to 990w.

If you reduce the rated voltage of a resistive load by 50% the resultant current is also reduced by 50% so the resultant power is 25% of the rated power.

So it would be 875W

 

[jacobdaughtry]

From Anthony on Brewboard:
The non-shiny elements are most likely Incoloy elements. There are some pictures here.

+1 on the zinc thing, I use a regular high-density element in my HLT and I think some of the zinc on that one is already starting to flake off.

 

[slnies]

If you reduce the rated voltage of a resistive load by 50% the resultant current is also reduced by 50% so the resultant power is 25% of the rated power.

So it would be 875W

rough guesstimation. You could do something constructive and answer the rest of the question though.

 

[germanskyy]

I just had 2 couplings welded today for (2) 1500watt 120V elements. Where is a good place to get 2 elements (LD?)? Also, the inside of the kettle was not welded...only the outside, so the inside looks a little Slaggy. Should I be worried about sanitation? Should I grind them down on the inside best I can? I'll try to post some pictures. Thanks.

 

[jacobdaughtry]

I just had 2 couplings welded today for (2) 1500watt 120V elements. Where is a good place to get 2 elements (LD?)? Also, the inside of the kettle was not welded...only the outside, so the inside looks a little Slaggy. Should I be worried about sanitation? Should I grind them down on the inside best I can? I'll try to post some pictures. Thanks.

Here is where I got my element: http://www.plumbingsupply.com/elements.html
The 120 volt 1500 watt element is model #02853. They cost $20.12/element.

I'll ask around about the sanitation issue.

JD from JAX

 

[slnies]

I would grind and polish smooth with a dremel tool. I would think that any tiny spaces unexposed could cause places for stuff to hide and cause off flavors down the road. If it were a fermenter those nooks would foster bacteria. In a mash tun or boil kettle I think that all you might get is off flavors. That is my take on it. S.

 

[Tybo]

I took some pictures of my heater elements for your viewing pleasure...

Those are from my BK heater element (note the copper showing up and the darkened zinc plating):

(continued in the next post)

 

[Tybo]

Those are from my HLT heater element (zinc plating turned yellowish and some dimples showing copper are appearing):

Note that both elements where used to make two 5 gal. batches. Boil time in the BK was 60 min. Element power is 4500W for both. 240V was used.

I didn't got my incoloy element so far so I can't compare. However I would recommend to stay away from zinc plating if some of you are considering them!

I'll keep you posted with the incoloy element performance.

Tybo

 

[RonnieDobbs]

Anyone have experience or thoughts about using a couple immersible cartridge heaters to accomplish the same goals (HLT, MLT, and/or boil)? Are there any advantages or disadvantages like watt density or durability of the elements? I've seen some cartridge heaters that have thermocouples built in which might be very useful. I'm definitely not an expert, but it seems like immersible cartridge heaters are designed for applications such as brewing so they might have some advantages.

 

[Orfy]

This is the one I use in the HLT.

There are a couple of points.
Itmust all be submarged so I can't heat less than 20L in the HLT.
The thermosat maxes out at 70°C so I had to bypass it.
220v @ 3kw

Apart from that it's perfect.

 

[slnies]

If you reduce the rated voltage of a resistive load by 50% the resultant current is also reduced by 50% so the resultant power is 25% of the rated power.

So it would be 875W

As it turns out my Calc.s are low. Old Olms law never lies. A heating element of 3500Watts has a resistance of 13.8, and at 220v draws 15.9amps. At 120 the wattage goes down to 1056w and it will draw 8.8amps. Elements like resistors do not change resistance no matter what voltage is hooked up to it. This correction took so long because a calculated risistance is not always accurate and I had an element on order; the measured resistance of that element was used. :rockin: S.

 

[wihophead]

As it turns out my Calc.s are low. Old Olms law never lies. A heating element of 3500Watts has a resistance of 13.8, and at 220v draws 15.9amps. At 120 the wattage goes down to 1056w and it will draw 8.8amps. Elements like resistors do not change resistance no matter what voltage is hooked up to it. This correction took so long because a calculated risistance is not always accurate and I had an element on order; the measured resistance of that element was used. :rockin: S.

Your right OHMs law doesn't lie...my previous statement is based off of Ohm's and Watt's law.

You are using 220V and 120V as your voltage values.

What is the actual heater rating... 220V or 240V? This will throw off your calculations.

If you have 120V at your receptacles it is impossible to have 220V.

What was the measured resistance, did you measure your voltage also?

 

[slnies]

Your right OHMs law doesn't lie...my previous statement is based off of Ohm's and Watt's law.

You are using 220V and 120V as your voltage values.

What is the actual heater rating... 220V or 240V? This will throw off your calculations.

If you have 120V at your receptacles it is impossible to have 220V.

What was the measured resistance, did you measure your voltage also?

The heater is rated at 220V My house hold voltage to ground is 120. So you are right in assuming that even if I ran the element at its rated voltage at my home I would be running it above its rating and the element would run at a higher wattage. One the other hand I have three phase in my garage and it is 120/208 so in my garage the wattage at 208 would be lower. I used the stated wattage at voltage on the box and calculated for my home. Does this make things clear?
On the other hand the wattage rating at 110v would be 869w and at 115v 958w and so on. So, even my rough guesstimation wasn't far off. It really does not matter, a grape is a grape no matter what kind it happens to be. Another point, the voltage values that are used to calc. the element's wattage only apply to that voltage, so where you start and where you end only apply to that voltage. It does not matter that I used 220v as a start, the resistance is still the same. That would mean that the Calc. at 120 is still valid. Answer to last question. Measured resistance was 13.8 Olm's as listed above. Almost right on with the calc., but like i said before, the calculated resistance in some instances using Olms law may not be accurate. So a measurement was used for the calculations. S.

 

[wihophead]

3 phase in residential...wow
Here you can get grounded B but not in residential.

If you have 208v you could get a buck boost transformer and run the element at the rated voltage and get the most out of the element....

 

[slnies]

3 phase in residential...wow
Here you can get grounded B but not in residential.

If you have 208v you could get a buck boost transformer and run the element at the rated voltage and get the most out of the element....

That costs money. Until I have one laying around from another job, anyway.
I live close to the the substation so three phase can be had reasonably and it was already installed when I bought the house. The old owner had a Machine shop with a couple of bridgeport mills. S.

 

[slnies]

3 phase in residential...wow
Here you can get grounded B but not in residential.

If you have 208v you could get a buck boost transformer and run the element at the rated voltage and get the most out of the element....

I take it that the power company out your way has not changed the system out? A while back our power company started changing out the old delta systems for wye because of insurance claims. Home owners "farmers" are allowed to work on their own systems and they would burn up equipment hooking up 110/120 circuits to the high leg. The Power Company will not install a delta system any more unless it is requested and then only for industry. Some of the outlying Co-Ops however do not have the same policies. Interesting eh. S