efficiency suddenly sucks

[Donner]

Anyone ever have a period where suddenly you can't hit your gravity numbers?

I'm consistently in the 75% range and then suddenly my last two brews have been lousy. I'm hitting my volumes, but my extraction has just been terrible. Last brew was 58% and today's was 51%.

Again, i know nothing has changed with my volumes, temperature is accurate (i have a thermapen). I feel like i'm stirring the grain into the water well enough to not get dough balls. Grain comes from the same place as always.

Maybe i'm not paying enough attention, i don't know. I'm at a loss to figure out why it's suddenly so hard to hit my pre boil gravity numbers.

any thoughts? i'm lost here

 

[Stauffbier]

Do you mill your own grain?

 

[Donner]

Do you mill your own grain?

nope. I've thought about maybe it's the shops crush, but i've had such good luck before and this batch didn't appear to have many intact grains. The last batch i was more suspect of, but this one looked normal. I can certainly ask them about it.

 

[jpzep4]

I was consistently hitting all numbers with my efficiency set to 70% in BeerSmith. Then after a few high gravity beers that came in 10-12 points under, I learned that efficiency can suffer on those bigger beers so I dropped efficiency to 60% in BS. So Sunday, with efficiency set at 60%, I set out to brew Denny's Wry Smile Rye IPA. Expected pre-boil gravity: 1.055, I did an iodine test, everything looked good. My pre-boil was only 1.042. So I was already behind the 8 ball but proceeded with smooth brew day from there, everything all good, then O.G only got to 1.056!!! 48% efficiency!!!

I never add anything to my water but this recipe called for gypsum. I know that I probably shouldn't have messed with my water WITHOUT knowing my water profile ( and I don't) but I added the gypsum anyway (1/2 tsp to mash, and I added 5.2 Stabilizer) Could that possibly have had that major an impact on efficiency I wonder?

I don't have a mill but I'm thinking of investing in one as it seems that a bad crush is the main culprit in terrible efficiency. It's all I can figure to be the problem. Should have taken pics of crush and posted here for opinions.

 

[sjbeerman]

I am having the same problem. I was consistently getting 70-75% efficiency and since around March or so, it dropped to 60-65%. I haven't changed my process at all and I have been ordering from the same supplier for the past year or so. I do not mill my own grains, but I am seriously considering that now. Who is your supplier?

 

[duboman]

The first and easiest place to start is the crush, just because you get your supplies from the same place doesn't mean their equipment may not change or they re-calibrated their mill, especially if you know you have a completely dialed in system.

 

[KAMMEE]

If you're batch sparging did you A) make sure to heat the sparge water hot enough to rinse the sugars, and B) stir after adding the sparge water?

 

[TrubHead]

Experienced the same and think it was the strike water temp coupled with strike water volume. Since correcting that and inspecting milled grain prior, brewed a target OG 1.083 IPA. After cooling wort OG gravity measured 1.088. Happy to be back to "normal" mash efficiency.

 

[Donner]

If you're batch sparging did you A) make sure to heat the sparge water hot enough to rinse the sugars, and B) stir after adding the sparge water?

I am double batch sparging. I am stirring well, but i'm not sure my strike water has been hot enough. That has been my first thought about the past two brews. I think i should review my notebook some more and see what was working and what is different.

 

[Stauffbier]

I am double batch sparging. I am stirring well, but i'm not sure my strike water has been hot enough. That has been my first thought about the past two brews. I think i should review my notebook some more and see what was working and what is different.

I tried a "cold sparge" with room temp water for the first time a week ago, and I still managed 74% efficiency (I usually get 79%). I don't know if you can really blame sparge infusion temps, in spite of how much it's debated. You need to mill your own grain. Get that variable out of the way, and take it from there. One variable at a time, thereafter.

 

[Stauffbier]

I never add anything to my water but this recipe called for gypsum. I know that I probably shouldn't have messed with my water WITHOUT knowing my water profile ( and I don't) but I added the gypsum anyway (1/2 tsp to mash, and I added 5.2 Stabilizer) Could that possibly have had that major an impact on efficiency I wonder?

If I remember correct, pH 5.2 Stabilizer already has gypsum in it, so if you use gypsum and 5.2 you might have very high amounts of gypsum in your brew.

 

[DHUKILL]

I always look at crush and water supply. I buy all my water from the Culigan 'machine' in Walmart. I wonder if the city tap water profile could change with summer?
I also have my mill set at .20 and this last brew, I actually run the grain through the mill twice (usually throw in some rice hulls just to make sure I don't run into trouble). I hit .83%

 

[sjbeerman]

In my case, I pretty much hit my mash temps, therefore my strike water temp is good. I typically mash at around 1.5qts/lb. My sparge water temp is roughly similar each time. For my last brew, I used 14 lbs of grain with about 50% wheat and 1lb rice hulls for improved lautering. I recovered the expected amount of wort from first and second runnings. In this batch I hit 58% efficiency! I asked the supplier to crush the wheat twice, so I'm assuming they did. I haven't seen that low of an efficiency since my first all grain brew. This last brew was my 17th all grain batch.

 

[jpzep4]

I am having the same problem. I was consistently getting 70-75% efficiency and since around March or so, it dropped to 60-65%. I haven't changed my process at all and I have been ordering from the same supplier for the past year or so. I do not mill my own grains, but I am seriously considering that now. Who is your supplier?

My supplier is Brewmaster's Warehouse in GA and I hesitate to incriminate them as I have always been VERY satisfied with my supplies and their service. i guess it's possible the mill settings have drifted. Anyone else having this experience with grains from BW? They're a pretty popular supplier on this board.

Plenty of good info here about using a cheap corona mill. I'm going to get one and give that a shot first. If I see a return to sane efficiency numbers, I've found my problem ( assuming I set the corona mill properly!) It seems to be the agreed starting point and not an expensive experiment.

 

[sjbeerman]

I have also been using brewmasters for the past year.

 

[jpzep4]

I have also been using brewmasters for the past year.

Interesting! Being from CA I didn't think there was a shot you were using BW. In re-reading your original post about your efficiency drop, I realize that you're timeline is identical to mine. I was doing good but around March, things changed. I wrote it off to high gravity brews as I said in my OP, and lowered my efficiency to 60 in BeerSmith. This last week at 48% was the last straw though.

Donner: Out of curiosity, are you ordering from Brewmasters Warehouse? I noticed you're in MS so not too far from GA

 

[Scooby_Brew]

Anyone ever have a period where suddenly you can't hit your gravity numbers?

If there was no changes in your brewing technique and you didn't suddenly start brewing high gravity beers, the one thing that comes to mind is water chemistry. It may be that your water source changes from winter to summer (happens a lot in dessert towns), maybe you had big rains or your water chemistry changed for some other reason. Check your mash pH.

 

[sjbeerman]

I use starsan pH 5.2 in all my mashes. I know some on here feel that it doesn't work, but there was a presentation at NHC that indicates it works as indicated regardless of water source. In addition, I can go back more than a year where my efficiencies were good then all of a sudden in the last few months it just dropped 5-10%. Therefore, mash pH is unlikely the source. I currently have a bag of crushed grain from a recent purchase from BMW and I noticed there is not as much powder as their has been in the past. It also looks like many of the grains are still intact.

 

[snail]

I've been using Brewmasters Warehouse for a long time. My mash efficiency was always 80% but the last couple brews have been really low, like 50%. I think the mill has drifted or something. I saw another thread where someone was complaining about the same thing and they used BW. Something has to be up...

 

[sjbeerman]

I guess this is more of a reason to start milling my own grains. If I take that route then I would likely drop BMW as my main supplier. I typically get great efficiencies from them and their customer service is great, but this issue has caused me nothing but headaches.

 

[snail]

I guess this is more of a reason to start milling my own grains. If I take that route then I would likely drop BMW as my main supplier. I typically get great efficiencies from them and their customer service is great, but this issue has caused me nothing but headaches.

I'll likely pick up my own Crank N Stein from them and crush my own but I think I will still stay with them since they have always been great with service/prices.

 

[Brewmasters Warehouse]

We have always prided ourselves on a great crush and we have not changed anything in that department. We still use the same mill on the same settings as we always have. We preform routine maintenance on the mill to help ensure that the crush is amazing. I can tell you that locally, and this could possibly be affecting people all over Georgia, Florida, and Alabama since a lot of the ground water all comes from the same place, there recently was a very large change in the water. We had people coming into the shop, calling, and emailing about getting lower efficiency out of no where, and not being able to get it back up after a few batches. The employees and I also saw drops in efficiency in our beers. The culprit was the water. We made the proper adjustments to the water or used some 5.2 and the efficiency went back up, even if it did not go all the way back to where it was.

Not trying to pass the buck, but there is a lot that goes into brewhouse efficiency other than the crush. I am going to buy a few replacement rollers just because of this thread and see if that makes any difference. I doubt it will, but I don't want people thinking we have a bad crush.

Thanks,

Ed

 

[sjbeerman]

Well, I live on the West Coast. Obviously, your changes in water would not be the same as mine. I use pH 5.2 in all my mashes and I have been following the same process for more than a year now. I saw a presentation at the NHC that indicated that pH 5.2 does actually get your water to that pH regardless of source, unlike what others say. I currently have an unopened bag from BMW in my garage where I noticed there is not as much powder as there was in the past (unless its my imagination) and it appears that there are several grains uncrushed, unless I am imagining that too. Again, I haven't changed anything in my process: still mash at the same grain/water ratio, still add the sparge water around the same temp, still add starsan pH 5.2, still lauter the same. I don't know what else is left.

 

[Brewmasters Warehouse]

Well, I live on the West Coast. Obviously, your changes in water would not be the same as mine. I use pH 5.2 in all my mashes and I have been following the same process for more than a year now. I saw a presentation at the NHC that indicated that pH 5.2 does actually get your water to that pH regardless of source, unlike what others say. I currently have an unopened bag from BMW in my garage where I noticed there is not as much powder as there was in the past (unless its my imagination) and it appears that there are several grains uncrushed, unless I am imagining that too. Again, I haven't changed anything in my process: still mash at the same grain/water ratio, still add the sparge water around the same temp, still add starsan pH 5.2, still lauter the same. I don't know what else is left.

Yeah I was not trying to say that our crush was not the reason just that there are a lot of other reasons. It seems people always just blame the supplier for a bad crush when that is not always the case is all. The important thing for me that came out of this thread is that we have to be even more vigilant in making sure that the mill is dialed in to the specs we want all the time. Already made adjustments to it today, and talked to the guys about making sure that the mill is checked often, so that if it does walk a bit it is immediately corrected.

 

[flipfloptan]

For what it is worth, I did two batches this weekend from BMW crush orders that were ordered 6/9. My efficiency was spot on. 78 and 80%.

 

[TrubHead]

Yeah I was not trying to say that our crush was not the reason just that there are a lot of other reasons. It seems people always just blame the supplier for a bad crush when that is not always the case is all. The important thing for me that came out of this thread is that we have to be even more vigilant in making sure that the mill is dialed in to the specs we want all the time. Already made adjustments to it today, and talked to the guys about making sure that the mill is checked often, so that if it does walk a bit it is immediately corrected.

Kudos to this responsive vendor who appears to address customer issues.

For what it's worth haven't experienced brewing water issues in Florida. Milled grain is the easiest thing to inspect and worth the look before mashing.

 

[jpzep4]

Yes, Ed and the staff at BW are truly a top-notch crew. I've been happy with everything until these last few 'inefficient' brews. I get what you said Ed about flippantly blaming the store for the crush. Not my intention to slam your business, it's just that I'm down to that as a last variable.

Thanks for being aware of AND responding to the issue.

 

[Donner]

I've been using Ed and Brewmasters warehouse for the past four years. While thinking about my process i did contact ed to inquire about his crush. His response was immediate and has put me at ease. He even said he went so far as to go and double check that the mill hadn't walked and gone unnoticed.

I don't know where the issue in my process is yet, but given the good experiences i've had with BMW, i'm willing to look at all the parts of my process here before i jump to any conclusions about his crush. I'm even planning a trip to the store when i'm in atlanta next week. Ed has always treated me right and i don't think he would change now.

 

[Stauffbier]

Not to offend any reputable, honest vendors out there, but I still prefer crushing my own vs. having them crush it for me. If it isn't right, then it's nobody's fault but mine! Not that I haven't relied on my LHBS to crush my grains before, because I did at one time. Recently I got myself a Corona mill, and I love it. I cranked out a smoked saison today, and I got 80.6% efficiency with a double batch sparge.

 

[Donner]

Not to offend any reputable, honest vendors out there, but I still prefer crushing my own vs. having them crush it for me. If it isn't right, then it's nobody's fault but mine! Not that I haven't relied on my LHBS to crush my grains before, because I did at one time. Recently I got myself a Corona mill, and I love it. I cranked out a smoked saison today, and I got 80.6% efficiency with a double batch sparge.

I don't think anyone is offended. I'm sure having total control is a plus. I just know that i can't sustain owning that much grain (i don't have the space and i don't brew often enough with my bicycling hobby).

Plus, I can order from BMW on day one and have it here by day two, and for cheaper than i can drive to the closest HBS. Also, getting into wine making means that i can't do nearly as much on my own as i can with beer.

 

[bleme]

I'm no expert, just tossing out ideas, but is it possible the grain was poorly malted?

 

[Stauffbier]

I'm no expert, just tossing out ideas, but is it possible the grain was poorly malted?

I was thinking this, as well.