### Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

#### babalu87

##### Well-Known Member
Great stuff Kai!

Damn, I really have to try and find a sitter for the kids on the 28th

#### dstar26t

##### If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
Kaiser,
Are you assuming a moisture content for the grain to calculate the potential gravity?

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
Kaiser,
Are you assuming a moisture content for the grain to calculate the potential gravity?

No, so far I have been neglecting the moisture issue. I know that it skews the gravity potential but I find it hard to measure. Maybe I should add a field for that.

Thanks,
Kai

#### Coastarine

##### We get it, you hate BMC.
HBT Supporter
Sweet! Now I'm going to be playing with my refractometer all through the sacc rest!

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
Sweet! Now I'm going to be playing with my refractometer all through the sacc rest!

Plotting the gravity every 10 - 15 min is a nice exercise that tells you a lot how conversion progresses durng the sacc rest. It can also show you if you can expect further gains from longer mashing.

Kai

#### dstar26t

##### If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
Kaiser,

Can I send you my spreadsheet? My efficiency into kettle is different than yours by 5% and I'm not sure why. I don't think I agree with the way you calculate the 100% extract efficiency gravity for the grain (your total extract weight - C21 on the "detailed calculations" sheet).

Nate

#### Coastarine

##### We get it, you hate BMC.
HBT Supporter
Plotting the gravity every 10 - 15 min is a nice exercise that tells you a lot how conversion progresses durng the sacc rest. It can also show you if you can expect further gains from longer mashing.

Kai

That leads somewhat into my next question; which is can I expect 100% conversion? Also, I know that some extract should be expected to be left in the spent grain to avoid getting unpleasant stuff from the grain, what would be a reasonable target value? 5 or 10% maybe?

#### BuzzCraft

##### Well-Known Member
Very nice....thanks for doing this.

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
Can I send you my spreadsheet? My efficiency into kettle is different than yours by 5% and I'm not sure why. I don't think I agree with the way you calculate the 100% extract efficiency gravity for the grain (your total extract weight - C21 on the "detailed calculations" sheet).

Sure, that's the kind of feedback I'm looking for as well.

Kai

#### dstar26t

##### If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
emailed to kai at braukaiser dot com

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
I saw that and updated the spreadsheet to include optional moisture content information.

Kai

#### AZ_IPA

##### PKU
HBT Supporter
Thanks Kai -

I, and others, really appreciate your work on effeciency theory and calculations.

Of note - I calculated via your spreadsheet that my mash efficiency was only 87%. Interesting.

On a side note - have you done your "cold sparge" experiments yet?

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
Of note - I calculated via your spreadsheet that my mash efficiency was only 87%. Interesting.

did you mean efficiency of conversion?

On a side note - have you done your "cold sparge" experiments yet?

No I haven't. This one has moved to the back burner a little bit though I'm curious to give it a try.

Kai

#### AZ_IPA

##### PKU
HBT Supporter
did you mean efficiency of conversion?

yes, sorry - 87% conversion.

I'm assuming if I can get that up to ~95% I'll likely see a somewhat corresponding increase in the into the kettle efficiency (which was 72% in this case)

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
yes, sorry - 87% conversion.

I used to call it mash efficiency but that conflicted with many other brewers definitions of mash efficiency being the efficiency into the kettle. So I changed it to conversion efficiency b/c that had not been taken yet and it makes more clearly what it is measuring.

I'm assuming if I can get that up to ~95% I'll likely see a somewhat corresponding
increase in the into the kettle efficiency (which was 72% in this case)

with 72% into kettle and 87% conversion efficiency your lauter efficiency must have been around 72 / .87 = 82%. With the same lauter efficiency and a conversion efficiency of 95% you should expect an efficiency into the kettle of 95% * .82 = 78%

depending on how you sparge, 82% lauter efficicncy can also be improved to 85-90% (at least for average gravity beers and batch sparging).

Kai

#### SpanishCastleAle

##### Well-Known Member
Kaiser,
I use a Zapap lauter tun and it has a decent amount of space beneath the false bottom that I prefill with hot water before adding the mash. Will I be able to get a good true first runnings sample? Maybe take 3-4 different samples during the early part and pick the highest one?

I hope to try using it this weekend.

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
Kaiser,
I use a Zapap lauter tun and it has a decent amount of space beneath the false bottom that I prefill with hot water before adding the mash. Will I be able to get a good true first runnings sample? Maybe take 3-4 different samples during the early part and pick the highest one?

In that case I suggest running into the kettle and once a significant amount has been collected but the sparge has not started to dilute the runnings yet, mix it well and take a sample. The amount of water used for mash, that you enter, needs to include the water you had under the false bottom.

Kai

#### Coastarine

##### We get it, you hate BMC.
HBT Supporter
I don't know much about the moisture content of grain, but if beersmith says that german pilsner has 4%, is it safe to assume that is correct for my grain (which is still sealed from brewmaster's warehouse).

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
I don't know much about the moisture content of grain, but if beersmith says that german pilsner has 4%, is it safe to assume that is correct for my grain (which is still sealed from brewmaster's warehouse).

Id think so.

So far I havent really accounted for moisture in my grain and always worked with the 80% as a good approximation of extract potential. Turns out that with 4% moisture the actual extract is more like 77%.

Kai

#### Coastarine

##### We get it, you hate BMC.
HBT Supporter
Sounds good, I'm using the extract values from beersmith too. Those are probably as good numbers as I'm going to get.

#### mthompson

##### Well-Known Member
Any thoughts on why I cannot access the file. the link says "403 Forbidden blah, blah, blah" and so does the .xls when I right-click/save file as.

Thanks,

#### freddyb

##### Well-Known Member
Any thoughts on why I cannot access the file. the link says "403 Forbidden blah, blah, blah" and so does the .xls when I right-click/save file as.

Thanks,

I get the same error too. Can some one email the file to me? soonerbh at gmail.

Thanks!

#### Got Trub?

##### Well-Known Member
That leads somewhat into my next question; which is can I expect 100% conversion? Also, I know that some extract should be expected to be left in the spent grain to avoid getting unpleasant stuff from the grain, what would be a reasonable target value? 5 or 10% maybe?

100% is only possible in the laboratory.

I was just listening to one of Jamil's podcasts where he discussed not trying to get much > 70% efficiency to avoid extracting undesirable flavours. It was either the Kolsch or the Dusseldorf Alt podcast.

GT

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
Any thoughts on why I cannot access the file. the link says "403 Forbidden blah, blah, blah" and so does the .xls when I right-click/save file as.

Thanks,

There must be a problem with my hosting provider. If it hasn't cleared up by tomorrow I'll have to contact them.

Kai

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
100% is only possible in the laboratory.

100% conversion efficiency is certainly possible but you may have to work for it by either milling really fine (which may cause you to spend the whole day lautering) or use a decoction schedule during which all or almost all the grain is boiled.

I was just listening to one of Jamil's podcasts where he discussed not trying to get much > 70% efficiency to avoid extracting undesirable flavours. It was either the Kolsch or the Dusseldorf Alt podcast.
Now what Jamil is talking about here is the efficiency into the kettle. This includes lautering losses and I agree with him that you need to leave some efficiency behind at this stage for wort quality sake. I don't agree with his 70% though and for me that number is more like 80-85%.

But what needs to be taken into account here is how did you get the 70%:

I can have a very poor conversion efficiency of 75% and excessive lautering with an efficiency of 93%. The combined efficiency is 70% but the intensive lauter may have caused oversparging. Or I can have a very good conversion efficiency of 93% or more and a very relaxed lauter with an efficiency of 75% (this can easily achieved with no-sparge) which will produce a very high quality wort. If you ask me I'll take the latter of the two options.

I get my 80-85% from aiming for a conversion efficiency of 95%. I then need a lauter efficiency of 84-89% which can easily be achieved with a 2 run-off batch sparge and only 15% boil off.

Kai

#### Homercidal

HBT Supporter
Argh! I get the forbidden error too. Can't wait to see this!

Still forbidden.

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
Argh! I get the forbidden error too. Can't wait to see this!

Sorry about that. I hope to get this resolved by today. As far as I know I'm current with my payments to them.

Unfortunately I don't even have another place to put the spreadsheet. HBT doen't let me host anythin else but pictures.

Kai

OP
OP

Kai

thanks kai

#### Anthony_Lopez

##### Well-Known Member
tag on this! Gonna try it out later tonight

#### Got Trub?

##### Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Got Trub?
100% is only possible in the laboratory.

100% conversion efficiency is certainly possible but you may have to work for it by either milling really fine (which may cause you to spend the whole day lautering) or use a decoction schedule during which all or almost all the grain is boiled.

But would you actually be able to or want to make beer from this?

Or I can have a very good conversion efficiency of 93% or more and a very relaxed lauter with an efficiency of 75% (this can easily achieved with no-sparge) which will produce a very high quality wort. If you ask me I'll take the latter of the two options.

He does briefly discuss doing the no sparge method as one approach to creating a high quality wort for very malt focused beers. I'm considering trying that when I next brew some Scottish 60/- in the fall. Since they require so little grain anyways a little more isn't too painfull...

GT

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
But would you actually be able to or want to make beer from this?

Yes, I would. I don't think that there are quality disadvantages to having very good conversion in the mash.

Kai

#### SpanishCastleAle

##### Well-Known Member
Regarding the first runnings sample...would it be OK to just pull it from the mash (almost like a thin-mash decoction...except pulled at mashout) right before you start the lauter?

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
Regarding the first runnings sample...would it be OK to just pull it from the mash (almost like a thin-mash decoction...except pulled at mashout) right before you start the lauter?

Yes, that works too.

Kai

#### SpanishCastleAle

##### Well-Known Member
Kai,
I'm in the boil now but I just entered the values quickly and because I did decoctions (thick and thin...both boiled 12 minutes) I think I need to reduce the amount I enter in H26. If I enter the full amount I get 111% conversion efficiency but if I enter what I think should be the correct amount (I subtracted 2 qt) then I get 99% conversion efficiency.

The other numbers seem to be right...I expected 88% efficiency into kettle and that's exactly what it says I got.

My spent grain runnings (I added 1qt/lb) were 1.005. That was something I've needed to do and today I finally took the time to do it.

Fun exercise.

OP
OP

#### Kaiser

##### Well-Known Member
Yes, decoctions tend to be a problem b/c of the boil-off. If you can measure the volume of the start of the mash and then again at the end of the mash you can easily determine how much water was lost.

They also tend to be very efficiency when it comes to conversion efficiency b/c of the boiling of the grain.

Your numbers basically mean that there is not much to gain for you unless you optimize the sparge. But since that may also lower the wort quality it should not be worth the effort.

Kai

Replies
0
Views
186
Replies
6
Views
416
Replies
8
Views
604
Replies
10
Views
1K