EBIAB: 240v off two 120v outlets?

[zyzzyva]

Hi everyone. Long time lurker here. I've been truly amazed and inspired by all your posts and the help you've offered others. Now I'm hoping it's my turn.

I'd like to build up an EBIAB system using the EZBoil, specifically the DSPR320. I live in an apartment that's entirely wired with 120v/15A outlets. There's no room on my breaker box for a 240 circuit, and even if there was there's no way the landlord would sign off on it.

Until recently, I assumed I'd just plug two elements into two outlets on two circuits. One would be controlled by the PIC and the other would be a "dumb" element that I'd turn on and off to reach temps faster. That's still an option, but recently I discovered that I might be able to use a 120 to 240 adapter like this: https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Elec...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=KJRDRBRW0K18A259G5MM

In my kitchen, I have two outlets about 10 feet apart. They're on separate circuits that are out of sync, and when I plug a multimeter into both, I get readings of 240v (actually 245). My understanding is that this combination is still 15A, so I would have a max load of 3600w. Assuming that's correct, it looks like I have three options:

Option A is what I mentioned above: two 1650w elements on two outlets, one controlled by the 120v PID and one controlled manually. This is probably the most viable option, and it's also the most versatile since I could use it anywhere with two circuits, but it doesn't allow as much control as the other options.

Option B: still the same two elements as A, but this time both connected to the PID running on 240w. This would allow full control over the heating process. It would also allow me to switch back to option A if necessary without much fuss. But, it's the most complicated and expensive option, as it requires two elements wired in parallel, along with the 240v adapter.

Option C: one 3500w element, connected to 240v PID. This would be my preference if I was sure it would work. It's a bit simpler and cheaper than option B, while still giving full control. I wouldn't have to put another port in my kettle or wire two SSRs in parallel. My main concern here is that the 3500w element is awfully close to my max load, and I don't know how much juice the adapter might eat, if any. I know from past experience that each outlet is capable of running an 1800w induction plate for several hours (long enough to brew a 5 gallon batch on 1800w!) so it might work fine, but I'm not certain. My pump draws 25w, and that's the only other thing I'd be using when the element is on. If Brewhardware or another reputable source offered a 3300w element, I'd go for it. But the only ones I've found ship from overseas and may not be fully stainless.

Anyhow, I would love some advice. Is this just a crazy pipe dream and I should stick with option A so I don't burn the building down? Is option C totally viable and I'm overthinking it? Should I give up my otherwise totally amazing apartment and move to a shack with proper 240 power? All feedback is appreciated!

Thanks.

 

[sicktght311]

Before even getting into the "should i" part of this, keep in mind any chance of making 2 120v outlets into one 240v requires that the two 120v outlets be on a different phase. Aka one has to be wired to one side of your breaker panel, and the other has to be wired to the otherside. SO for it to even be realistically possible you'd have to find two outlets near each other, that run off two separate circuits in your fuse box, that are on opposite sides from each other.

 

[sicktght311]

ALso you'll run into amperage limitations, making this unusable anyway. its not liek you just add them up and you get 30amps. Yes you potentially get 30 amps in terms of a breaker and what the element can try to pull, but thats not what the wiring will be able to handle.

Your best bet honestly is the following

1) Build a controller to run one 1650watt element and run the other Full power until you get to mash temp, and then during boil. Turn it off during mash and let the single 1650watt element and pid control the mash, and then during boil set it to whatever percentage of power you need to maintain a boil with that element+ the fully on 1650 watt
2) Build a controller that has two 120v input lines. One wires up as normal with any other controller (Pid, switches for pumps, SSR, etc), and then wire the second plug directly to an SSR and 2nd element output. THen just piggy back the low voltage output from the PID to control both SSRs
3) Build a 240v panel and 240v element and convert your oven or dryer wiring to a plug receptacle so you can plug/unplug and switch between them, and your brewing system whenever you wanna brew

 

[BBBF]

ALso you'll run into amperage limitations, making this unusable anyway. its not liek you just add them up and you get 30amps. Yes you potentially get 30 amps in terms of a breaker and what the element can try to pull, but thats not what the wiring will be able to handle.

Your best bet honestly is the following

1) Build a controller to run one 1650watt element and run the other Full power until you get to mash temp, and then during boil. Turn it off during mash and let the single 1650watt element and pid control the mash, and then during boil set it to whatever percentage of power you need to maintain a boil with that element+ the fully on 1650 watt
2) Build a controller that has two 120v input lines. One wires up as normal with any other controller (Pid, switches for pumps, SSR, etc), and then wire the second plug directly to an SSR and 2nd element output. THen just piggy back the low voltage output from the PID to control both SSRs
3) Build a 240v panel and 240v element and convert your oven or dryer wiring to a plug receptacle so you can plug/unplug and switch between them, and your brewing system whenever you wanna brew

My set up uses option #2, although I have one of the input lines on a On/Off/On switch. This allows me to have two elements in my boil kettle to quickly heat up my strike water and later boil the wort. After I mash in, I divert one of the lines to a third element in a RIMS tube with a 2nd PID. The remaining, functioning element in my boil kettle can slowly heat up my sparge water over the next hour.

 

[doug293cz]

ALso you'll run into amperage limitations, making this unusable anyway. its not liek you just add them up and you get 30amps. Yes you potentially get 30 amps in terms of a breaker and what the element can try to pull, but thats not what the wiring will be able to handle.

Your best bet honestly is the following

1) Build a controller to run one 1650watt element and run the other Full power until you get to mash temp, and then during boil. Turn it off during mash and let the single 1650watt element and pid control the mash, and then during boil set it to whatever percentage of power you need to maintain a boil with that element+ the fully on 1650 watt
2) Build a controller that has two 120v input lines. One wires up as normal with any other controller (Pid, switches for pumps, SSR, etc), and then wire the second plug directly to an SSR and 2nd element output. THen just piggy back the low voltage output from the PID to control both SSRs
3) Build a 240v panel and 240v element and convert your oven or dryer wiring to a plug receptacle so you can plug/unplug and switch between them, and your brewing system whenever you wanna brew

OP knows that they can only draw 15A on the combined surface. That's why a 3500W element and not a 4500W or 5500W element. It's the element and voltage that determine the current drawn.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Hi everyone. Long time lurker here. I've been truly amazed and inspired by all your posts and the help you've offered others. Now I'm hoping it's my turn.

I'd like to build up an EBIAB system using the EZBoil, specifically the DSPR320. I live in an apartment that's entirely wired with 120v/15A outlets. There's no room on my breaker box for a 240 circuit, and even if there was there's no way the landlord would sign off on it.

Until recently, I assumed I'd just plug two elements into two outlets on two circuits. One would be controlled by the PIC and the other would be a "dumb" element that I'd turn on and off to reach temps faster. That's still an option, but recently I discovered that I might be able to use a 120 to 240 adapter like this: https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Elec...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=KJRDRBRW0K18A259G5MM

In my kitchen, I have two outlets about 10 feet apart. They're on separate circuits that are out of sync, and when I plug a multimeter into both, I get readings of 240v (actually 245). My understanding is that this combination is still 15A, so I would have a max load of 3600w. Assuming that's correct, it looks like I have three options:

Option A is what I mentioned above: two 1650w elements on two outlets, one controlled by the 120v PID and one controlled manually. This is probably the most viable option, and it's also the most versatile since I could use it anywhere with two circuits, but it doesn't allow as much control as the other options.

Option B: still the same two elements as A, but this time both connected to the PID running on 240w. This would allow full control over the heating process. It would also allow me to switch back to option A if necessary without much fuss. But, it's the most complicated and expensive option, as it requires two elements wired in parallel, along with the 240v adapter.

Option C: one 3500w element, connected to 240v PID. This would be my preference if I was sure it would work. It's a bit simpler and cheaper than option B, while still giving full control. I wouldn't have to put another port in my kettle or wire two SSRs in parallel. My main concern here is that the 3500w element is awfully close to my max load, and I don't know how much juice the adapter might eat, if any. I know from past experience that each outlet is capable of running an 1800w induction plate for several hours (long enough to brew a 5 gallon batch on 1800w!) so it might work fine, but I'm not certain. My pump draws 25w, and that's the only other thing I'd be using when the element is on. If Brewhardware or another reputable source offered a 3300w element, I'd go for it. But the only ones I've found ship from overseas and may not be fully stainless.

Anyhow, I would love some advice. Is this just a crazy pipe dream and I should stick with option A so I don't burn the building down? Is option C totally viable and I'm overthinking it? Should I give up my otherwise totally amazing apartment and move to a shack with proper 240 power? All feedback is appreciated!

Thanks.

You can do option "C" using the linked adapter, but you need to add a spa panel between the adapter and your controller box to get GFCI protection, and the 120V outlets cannot have GFCI protection (you will trip those since you can't force the neutral currents to be equal to the corresponding phase currents.) Since you need the spa panel anyway, you might as well just skip the adapter cable and do the wiring on the input side of the spa panel. Also, here's a cheaper combiner cord. The cons to this approach are:

• Can't run from 120V GFCI protected circuits
• Must run from 120V circuits on opposite phases.

Option "B" has the fewest restrictions on inputs, but does require another hole in the kettle for the second element. In this case nothing should be combined for 240V. Put the EZBoil on one of the 120V circuits, and wire its SSR outputs in parallel with two SSR's. Each SSR is on a different 120V circuit. This approach doesn't require the 120V outlets to be opposite phase, and will work with GFCI protected outlets. If the outlets are not GFCI protected, then you need to add GFCI protection to each outlet.

Brew on

 

[downzero]

ALso you'll run into amperage limitations, making this unusable anyway. its not liek you just add them up and you get 30amps. Yes you potentially get 30 amps in terms of a breaker and what the element can try to pull, but thats not what the wiring will be able to handle.

Not true. On a 240 volt circuit, whatever is coming from one side is going back to the other as a return path (that's what it means to be 180* out of phase). As such, if either breaker is overloaded, so is the other one at the same time. Current will be limited just as if they had individual loads on them, and the wiring will be protected, e.g., 15 amps. It'll be 15 amps at 240 volts instead of 120, so twice the power is available, but the ampacity is the same.

I'm not sure if it's code compliant to do this because tripping one breaker will leave the other side live, but tripping either breaker will shut the load off, since both breakers need to be on for there to be a complete circuit.

15a @ 240 volts is 3,600 watts. That's quite a bit for most things in a home. My welder pulls more than that when cranked up, but my air compressor (3 hp I think?) doesn't.

 

[zyzzyva]

doug239cz thank you for your input! I can see from your posts here and elsewhere that you're very knowledgeable and well respected here, so I'll defer to you as the expert.

The outlets are on opposite phases (I said "out of sync" in the OP, but now I have the right terminology). They're not GFCI; I had planned to use GFCI adapters, but I guess not if I go with option C.

It looks like there's no reason for me to pick option A. This makes me happy. It never occurred to me that with option B I could run each SSR from a different outlet, but still control them with the EZBoil. That's an appealing thought.

If I choose option C, could I house the spa panel and control box in the same enclosure? I'm just thinking space and aesthetics here.

 

[doug293cz]

...

If I choose option C, could I house the spa panel and control box in the same enclosure? I'm just thinking space and aesthetics here.

You could mount the GFCI breaker from the spa panel inside your enclosure. I don't know how difficult it might be to rig up the proper mount (which comes with the spa panel.) Historically the cost of a spa panel w/GFCI breaker is lower than the cost of a loose GFCI breaker - go figure.

Brew on

 

[zyzzyva]

You could mount the GFCI breaker from the spa panel inside your enclosure. I don't know how difficult it might be to rig up the proper mount (which comes with the spa panel.) Historically the cost of a spa panel w/GFCI breaker is lower than the cost of a loose GFCI breaker - go figure.

OK, I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

As for wiring the spa panel, I assume you run one hot wire from each outlet, as you would the comparable wires from a 240 circuit. But how do you handle the two neutral and ground lines? Just connect them both?

Also, should I be concerned about the amp rating of the spa panel? Or is this strictly for the GFCI and my house breakers will trip long before this one ever does?

 

[sicktght311]

OK, I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

As for wiring the spa panel, I assume you run one hot wire from each outlet, as you would the comparable wires from a 240 circuit. But how do you handle the two neutral and ground lines? Just connect them both?

Also, should I be concerned about the amp rating of the spa panel? Or is this strictly for the GFCI and my house breakers will trip long before this one ever does?

The Spa panel should be at least 20amps since thats the max wattage you expect to pull, but most spa panels are usually 50amps i believe. The breaker at your main panel will provide the overcurrent protection, the spa panel will provide the GFCI protection regardless of load

What you'll have to do, is make a plug that plugs into the 240v outlet side of the 2x120v adapter pig tail, and then the wires go into the spa panel and connect to the GFCI breaker, and then out to your panel. At that point it will be Hot+, Hot-, Neutral, and Ground like a traditional 240v supply.

 

[doug293cz]

OK, I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

As for wiring the spa panel, I assume you run one hot wire from each outlet, as you would the comparable wires from a 240 circuit. But how do you handle the two neutral and ground lines? Just connect them both?

Also, should I be concerned about the amp rating of the spa panel? Or is this strictly for the GFCI and my house breakers will trip long before this one ever does?

I would common the neutrals, but just connect one of the grounds in order to prevent ground loops.

Brew on

 

[zyzzyva]

What you'll have to do, is make a plug that plugs into the 240v outlet side of the 2x120v adapter pig tail, and then the wires go into the spa panel and connect to the GFCI breaker, and then out to your panel. At that point it will be Hot+, Hot-, Neutral, and Ground like a traditional 240v supply.

I’d prefer to not use the 120/240 adapter if I don’t need to. Doug indicated that the two 120 lines can be hardwired into the spa panel. I’d prefer that option to save a few bucks.

 

[zyzzyva]

As for the control panel, what I really want it something that can run two pumps along with the element(s). Based on the schematics I’ve seen elsewhere on this forum, I went to Auber and pieced out everything I thought I’d need for option C, along with what looked like an appropriate enclosure.

Total price came to... $271.

For that price, it seems silly to not just drop another $30 on their DIY kit. It does everything I want, and the minimal assembly headache and knowledge that it’s already tried and true is more than worth the price difference. Heck, the precut enclosure alone is worth another $30!

Still, I was really hoping to put together something closer to $200.

I doubt I could save much, if any, by going with option B. The second element and parallel SSRs would offset any savings I’d get by dropping the spa panel and 240v control panel.

Looks like I’ll be selling some more old brew equipment if I’m going to make this work!

 

[sicktght311]

I’d prefer to not use the 120/240 adapter if I don’t need to. Doug indicated that the two 120 lines can be hardwired into the spa panel. I’d prefer that option to save a few bucks.

You’ll have to take two 120v plugs and splice them at the panel input. This seems like more work than a splitter. Especially if you’re going to try to utilize an off the shelf panel like the brew buddy