EBC to SRM?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

unionrdr

Homebrewer, author & air gun collector
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
39,152
Reaction score
3,797
Location
Sheffield
I'm up to my 4th partial mash,& I'm working with a recipe from a member in Ireland for his dark lager in BS2. I classified it under American Dark Lager.
Among other things,the recipe uses a 1.7kg can of Thomas Cooper's Selection Heritage Lager. Cooper's lists the color as 90EBC,but Beersmith2 uses SRM. How do I convert this?
Not to mention,it lists it's bitternes as 390IBU,which is in it's concentrated form. Trying to make up my mind how to convert this so BS2 will use it correctly?
It also had some steeping grains,1.74oz carahell,3.5oz chocolate malt. I added .5lb Weyerman's smoked malt for a sort of micro mash. It also has 2.2lbs of extra light DME in it.
As of today when I took the 1st FG test,no smoke flavor could be detected. The sample in the hydrometer tube (the one it came in mind you) looked like it might be brown. Maybe in the glass it'll look dark,almost black like his.
It is a bit cloudy/misty yet,even at 1.012 gravity with the WL029 yeast.
So I'm in BS2 raising some grain amounts & such to get it where I want it.
 
OP
unionrdr

unionrdr

Homebrewer, author & air gun collector
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
39,152
Reaction score
3,797
Location
Sheffield
Ok,thanks. I'll give that a try so I can re-write the listing to get the numbers more accurate in BS2. All I need now is a conversion to the IBU's of the beer when the can is diluted to the final amount?...
** I just did the math with your formula,EBC x 1.97= SRM. 90 x 1.97= 177.3! Oops,just realized I did it backwards,since your formula is for converting SRM to EBC. I don't have the SRM,just the EBC number?...
 
OP
unionrdr

unionrdr

Homebrewer, author & air gun collector
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
39,152
Reaction score
3,797
Location
Sheffield
Oh brother,did I find a hornet's nest to open up. On beersmith site now. Seems to be a lot of controversy surrounding the old EBC & new SRM. http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/04/29/beer-color-understanding-srm-lovibond-and-ebc/
After reading the beersmith article,they only give EBC to SRM conversion of SRM x 1.97=EBC. After a couple calculations,I found that,since the Heritage lager can is listed as 90EBC,the formula (EBC/1.97) x 1.97=SRM,or 90 / 1.97 = 45.69 (rounded off) x 1.97= 90.0093. This formula will prove that EBC/1.97=SRM. So iow,90/1.97=45.69,or 45.7 as BS2 lists it. I assume that the EBC listed by Cooper's is rounded off to the nearest whole number. I hope this finally settles it. Now if there's an IBU formula to get the right IBU's for the finished wort...
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
38
Reaction score
0
It is a pretty touchy subject. Designing Great Beers goes into some detail about the technical differences. He does say that this conversion is pretty standard for newer conversions (since the 1990s).

Color is pretty subjective IMO.

I should have given you the EBC formula. I was just too lazy (and had a few beers) and typing on my tablet is painful (damn autocorrect!!!)
 

chickypad

lupulin shift victim
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,817
Reaction score
1,342
Location
SF Peninsula
After a couple calculations,I found that,since the Heritage lager can is listed as 90EBC,the formula (EBC/1.97) x 1.97=SRM,or 90 / 1.97 = 45.69 (rounded off) x 1.97= 90.0093. This formula will prove that EBC/1.97=SRM. So iow,90/1.97=45.69,or 45.7 as BS2 lists it.
???
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. You're taking EBC and dividing it by 1.97 then multiplying it by 1.97, of course you end up with the same number. But then you seem to say that since EBC = SRM, it proves that EBC/1.97 = SRM.

At any rate, it sounds like the Morey equation is actually what Beersmith uses, and because the conversion is not linear this equation is more accurate over a wider range of color.
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
11,959
Reaction score
2,730
Location
McLean/Ogden
SRM is 10 times the absorption in 1/2" at 430 nm. As an inch is 2.54 cm that's 12.7 times the absorption in 1cm. EBC is 25 times the absorption in 1 cm at 430 nm. Thus EBC = 25/12.7 = 1.9685 times SRM. There is nothing controversial about this, it is an exact conversion, neither system is one whit better than the other. They are exactly the same. Nobody measuring SRM with a modern instrument does it in anything other than 1 cm cuvettes.

Where things get confusing is that the EBC used to measure at a different longer wavelength. Can't remember what it was. EBC and SRM were not equivalent in those days. Most people say there was no conversion but it is in fact possible to convert between the two using the 'average spectral characteristic of beers' required by the SRM method. This is, of course, moot, as SRM and EBC now both measure at 430.

WRT to the Beersmith article linked to above: it repeats the commonly held misconception that SRM is a poor means of describing beer color. It is, in fact, quite good conveying about 92% of the information about a beer's color. But that is not 100%. It takes 2 or 3 additional numbers to give a complete description (one from which the visible, i.e. R,G,B, color in any light for any path length for either observer can be calculated).
 
OP
unionrdr

unionrdr

Homebrewer, author & air gun collector
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
39,152
Reaction score
3,797
Location
Sheffield
???
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. You're taking EBC and dividing it by 1.97 then multiplying it by 1.97, of course you end up with the same number. But then you seem to say that since EBC = SRM, it proves that EBC/1.97 = SRM.

At any rate, it sounds like the Morey equation is actually what Beersmith uses, and because the conversion is not linear this equation is more accurate over a wider range of color.
My mind was siwwing with numbers at that point,sorry for any confusion. Coper's uses EBC & BS2 uses SRM,& I needed a more accurate way of inputting the numbers in BS2. EBC/1.97= SRM turned out to be pretty accurate when I saw the change in color in the glass to the right of the recipe window. It looked like what's in FV#2 at this point. So it should be accurate +/- color-wise.
SRM is 10 times the absorption in 1/2" at 430 nm. As an inch is 2.54 cm that's 12.7 times the absorption in 1cm. EBC is 25 times the absorption in 1 cm at 430 nm. Thus EBC = 25/12.7 = 1.9685 times SRM. There is nothing controversial about this, it is an exact conversion, neither system is one whit better than the other. They are exactly the same. Nobody measuring SRM with a modern instrument does it in anything other than 1 cm cuvettes.

Where things get confusing is that the EBC used to measure at a different longer wavelength. Can't remember what it was. EBC and SRM were not equivalent in those days. Most people say there was no conversion but it is in fact possible to convert between the two using the 'average spectral characteristic of beers' required by the SRM method. This is, of course, moot, as SRM and EBC now both measure at 430.

WRT to the Beersmith article linked to above: it repeats the commonly held misconception that SRM is a poor means of describing beer color. It is, in fact, quite good conveying about 92% of the information about a beer's color. But that is not 100%. It takes 2 or 3 additional numbers to give a complete description (one from which the visible, i.e. R,G,B, color in any light for any path length for either observer can be calculated).
With SRM being the modern way of showing/describing color,I agree that it's pretty accurate when using a conversion formula that's at least pretty close.
The BS2 software seems to basically agree from what I've seen so far...
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
11,959
Reaction score
2,730
Location
McLean/Ogden
With SRM being the modern way of showing/describing color,....
The really modern ways are Tristimulus (ASBC has an MOA for that) and Augmented SRM (they don't use that one though I have suggested they do as it incorporates Tristim under any set of viewing conditions - not the just the single set under which Tristim applies).

...I agree that it's pretty accurate when using a conversion formula that's at least pretty close.
You are missing an important point. The conversion formula isn't pretty close. It is dead nuts on. A gallon of beer isn't pretty close to 3.785411784 litres. It is exactly 3.785411784 litres.
 
OP
unionrdr

unionrdr

Homebrewer, author & air gun collector
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
39,152
Reaction score
3,797
Location
Sheffield
Ah. I see your point. It was interesting when I had to re-input the info for the Cooper's Heritage Lager can to get the numbers right. It all seemed to fall into place. Even the beer glass pic looks like the actual beer does atm in primary. When I tested it. One more tweak done...:mug:
 
Top