Dunkels style.

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jdm61

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New guy here with a style question. Back in the mid 80's, I lived for a few months in the Heidelberg/Mannheim area. The primary beer of choice for most of the time, of course, was the slightly less hoppy southwestern German version of pils. But sometimes, we would drink a dark lager. i cannot remember what we called it, but i don't think that we ordered it as a Dunkels which is what I would have thought and I know for sure that we did not call it Schwarzbier. I just had a Munich Dunkels yesterday (Hofbrau) and have had some of the black lagers like Shiner recently. it has been a long time, but I don't recall the Heidelberg stuff being as roasty/malty as the Hofbrau, but, as with most German beers, it would not have been as crazy hoppy as a lot of American craft brews. Does anyone know what this beer might have been? Everything that I read about Franconian Dunkels says that its quite hoppy and only served in that area. I don't recall this beer being super hoppy. Anyone know what that might have been? Back in those days, it would have probably come from one of the local brewers like Bergbrau Leimen or one of the others nearby.
 
A Munich dunkel shouldn't have any roastiness to it.

Interesting. Do you think that they had the wrong keg hooked up? I may have to buy a bottle of the stuff at Total Wine to compare. I am new at this but it sure seemed to taste what I would call rather roasty. i would really like to eventually make something like what I had back in the day in Heidelberg, but I have to find out what style it was first. Otherwise, I may have to default to a schwarzbier or doppelbock. That would suck, right? :D:mug:
 
Interesting. Do you think that they had the wrong keg hooked up? I may have to buy a bottle of the stuff at Total Wine to compare. I am new at this but it sure seemed to taste what I would call rather roasty. i would really like to eventually make something like what I had back in the day in Heidelberg, but I have to find out what style it was first. Otherwise, I may have to default to a schwarzbier or doppelbock. That would suck, right? :D:mug:

See if you can find Ayinger Dunkel. it's my Holy Grail of dunkel. Proof that a beer can be malty without being sweet. And NO roastiness!
 
Not yet. I've been working on it for years. Just got a new freezer/controller combo so it's my main goal now.

Keep us posted. I'm going to brew my first Dunkel this weekend, I think i'm hooked after trying a few comercial examples.
 
I've made Jamil's "Old Dark Bear" dunkel from Brewing Classic Styles. It's meant to be a take on Ayinger's Altbairisch Dunkel. It's not very far, but your lager processes must be fantastic, and really watch your pitch rate. It uses munich malt and carafa II to get there with a single infusion, but to be honest I don't know how you can really replicate the beer without a multi-step decoction mash. I fell in love with Dunkel in Franconia (in fact it was Konig Ludwig, impossible to find fresh in the US), and will also be striving to replicate it in the coming years. I'll follow along in case anyone hits the 'holy grail' recipe.
 
See if you can find Ayinger Dunkel. it's my Holy Grail of dunkel. Proof that a beer can be malty without being sweet. And NO roastiness!
There is a place in Tampa that should have it if Total Wine doesn't, albeit at a premium price. They had Achel Brun in the 750ml bottle, which is fairly rare even in Belgium, much less the US. Bad news is they wanted $22.99 for the bottle. I passed.....for now.:drunk:
 
There is a place in Tampa that should have it if Total Wine doesn't, albeit at a premium price. They had Achel Brun in the 750ml bottle, which is fairly rare even in Belgium, much less the US. Bad news is they wanted $22.99 for the bottle. I passed.....for now.:drunk:

For me, Ayinger Altbairisch Dunkel is around $3.80 for 500ml. That's about the price I see in multiple shops.
 
For me, Ayinger Altbairisch Dunkel is around $3.80 for 500ml. That's about the price I see in multiple shops.
Total Wine has it for $4.29 down here. Almost $1 more than for the Weihenstephaner products. I'll give it a try. I may also pick up a bottle of the Hofbrau just to do a comparison of the bottled products.
 
Total Wine has it for $4.29 down here. Almost $1 more than for the Weihenstephaner products. I'll give it a try. I may also pick up a bottle of the Hofbrau just to do a comparison of the bottled products.

That's the way to do it. However I imagine you'll end up with the same conclusion as the rest of us.
 
I've made Jamil's "Old Dark Bear" dunkel from Brewing Classic Styles. It's meant to be a take on Ayinger's Altbairisch Dunkel. It's not very far, but your lager processes must be fantastic, and really watch your pitch rate. It uses munich malt and carafa II to get there with a single infusion, but to be honest I don't know how you can really replicate the beer without a multi-step decoction mash. I fell in love with Dunkel in Franconia (in fact it was Konig Ludwig, impossible to find fresh in the US), and will also be striving to replicate it in the coming years. I'll follow along in case anyone hits the 'holy grail' recipe.

I've made that twice and didn't feel like it was very close at all. Do you know for a fact that Ayinger does a decoction?
 
I've made that twice and didn't feel like it was very close at all. Do you know for a fact that Ayinger does a decoction?

I don't, but at the same time I wasn't trying to clone Ayinger. I've had a few homebrew infusion dunkels, and there's just a fundamental difference in malt character and melanoidin production that I just didn't get in the infusion batches. Maybe there are workarounds for that, but I haven't found them yet.
 
I don't, but at the same time I wasn't trying to clone Ayinger. I've had a few homebrew infusion dunkels, and there's just a fundamental difference in malt character and melanoidin production that I just didn't get in the infusion batches. Maybe there are workarounds for that, but I haven't found them yet.

I've gotten damn close with a single infusion. I have found little to no value in decoctions, and the evidence seems to point to few German breweries doing them. As to melanoidins, there is enough color to the beer already that I don't feel additional melanoidin production is a big deal.
 
What about a 2+ hour boil? Wouldn't that release more melanoidins or mallaird reactions?

First, keep in mind that melanoidins are a color, not a flavor. A 2 hour boil might increase the Maillard products, but I'm not sure that would be an advantage. And it would be difficult to control.
 
First, keep in mind that melanoidins are a color, not a flavor. A 2 hour boil might increase the Maillard products, but I'm not sure that would be an advantage. And it would be difficult to control.

Do you know how long they boil in Germany?
I'm going to brew my first Dunkel this weekend and I'm planning to do my 3rd ever Schmitz decoction with a 40 min boil. If I add my 90 min kettle boil with the decoction it gives me over 2 hours total. Maybe I need to cut back some?
 
Do you know how long they boil in Germany?
I'm going to brew my first Dunkel this weekend and I'm planning to do my 3rd ever Schmitz decoction with a 40 min boil. If I add my 90 min kettle boil with the decoction it gives me over 2 hours total. Maybe I need to cut back some?

IMO, that's overkill. But we're both guessing on this. But my advice would be to shoot for malty but not sweet.
 
IMO, that's overkill. But we're both guessing on this. But my advice would be to shoot for malty but not sweet.

Yeah, I'm kind a thinking the same. Guess I'll have to brew a bunch of Dunkels using different techniques and find out what I like best.
 
I've gotten damn close with a single infusion. I have found little to no value in decoctions, and the evidence seems to point to few German breweries doing them. As to melanoidins, there is enough color to the beer already that I don't feel additional melanoidin production is a big deal.

If that's truly the case, then it's good news. I'd just need to find the right grain bill. Boy I'd love to have it. Dunkel is the one style that's really hard for me to get (cheaply) and I'd like to have it on draft year-round.
 
If that's truly the case, then it's good news. I'd just need to find the right grain bill. Boy I'd love to have it. Dunkel is the one style that's really hard for me to get (cheaply) and I'd like to have it on draft year-round.
Do you think that it is hard to find because people just figure why not step up to a doppelbock and get a bit more punch?
 
Hah, maybe that's the case. Either way, I think dunkel is an underappreciated style
The good news may be that now that the more eastern German style of Scwarzbier appears to be gaining in popularity, maybe the southwestern styles are next.:mug: i am drikng an Ayinger now and it is significantly less roasty and heavy with more noticeable hops than the beer I had the other day. Very easy drinking beer. i will have to wait and see if what I for was actually Hobrau Dunkels because I have a bottle of that in the fridge.
 
Do you think that it is hard to find because people just figure why not step up to a doppelbock and get a bit more punch?

I think it's because dunkel isn't "sexy". It's a moderate gravity, dark, not hoppy beer. Those kinda fly under the radar.
 
Sampled Hofbrau and Warsteiner Dunkels today and there's quite a difference between the two. Both have the same brown dark Amber color but the Hofbrau is much sweeter, almost too sweet like there's some dark crystal in there. The Warsteiner is less sweet with a touch of roastiness in the finish. I think I'd prefer something in between.
 
I have yet to try the bottled Hofbrau and Spaten. I have read that some of the dunkels lean slightly more toward a less sweet pilsner style but with a bit less hoppy flavor. That is kind of where the Ayinger was and also what I remember that stuff we were drinking in Heidleberg tasting like. But hen again, the pilsner from that part of the world may not have been quite as hoppy as say Urquell. Really easy to drink too much of it. :ban:
 
Munich is rich in melanoidin. It will be interesting to see what turns out after boiling the malt for 40 minutes. I would do it.
 
Tried the Spaten. It is perhaps a little more "malty" sweet than the Ayinger, but less so that the draft Hofbrau I had. I know that three beers are not a valid statistical sample, but one might be led to believe that there might be a bit more stylistic variation with the dunkels than say with the classic southerr/western German pils.
 
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