Dry Yeast for a Guinness Clone (Irish Dry Ale)

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NSMikeD

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That time of year. In all my years of home brewing I never made a Guinness clone even though I love that beer. I brew 2.5 gal batches all grain and prefer dry yeast when I brew. Typically my go to yeast are Safale 05 for American ales and 04 for British ales. But I understand that 05 may be the better choice for the desired higher attenuation in an Irish dry ale. I do have a request into my LHBS for Wyeast 1084 if he has it in stock, but he’s carrying less liquid yeast compared to dry yeast these days.

What dry yeast would you recommend I have a fermentation fridge so temperature control isn’t an issue. I keg after primary and carbonate (CO2 only, no nitrogen.
 

kmarkstevens

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Nottingham works well in Irish Dry Stouts. It attenuates a little more than they typical Irish stout, but it is clean tasting. Notty is my go to if I don't have Darkness on hand.

Notty also has a very wide fermentation range from 50-72F
 

beersk

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I've been struggling to find a dry option for 1084 as well. There simply isn't one and I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. Out of all the dry yeasts on the market, why has there never been an Irish Ale yeast manufactured?

But, notty is basically your best bet.
 

Bramling Cross

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I've been struggling to find a dry option for 1084 as well. There simply isn't one and I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. Out of all the dry yeasts on the market, why has there never been an Irish Ale yeast manufactured?

But, notty is basically your best bet.
I can't speak for the dry yeast companies, so I don't know the real answer(s) to your question. However, I will suggest that during the period in which liquid yeast became easily available, the Irish strain developed a reputation for being difficult to work with. We didn't know much about good yeast handling back then and gobs of new brewers were piling into the hobby, deciding to clone their favorite beer, then earnestly making noob yeast-handling mistakes on their first brew. As a result, it became common advice that the Irish strains weren't worth the hassle when West Coast, German, or Scottish strains got the job done just as nicely but without all the fuss. Again, I don't know the answer to your question, but I would wager that in light of the Irish strains' difficult history they might not be a very lucrative proposition for the dry yeast makers. I don't actually know that, though.

It would be fun to know how many gallons of dry stout are being cranked out each year by homebrewers. I'm sure it's a very impressive total. Of that impressive total, I'd wager that a surprisingly small number of those gallons are being pitched with the Irish strains.
 

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S04 makes a really good stout, but is more fruity than Guinness, so probably in this case, Notti would be best. But us05 would work as well.
 

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Lalbrew Bry-97 dry yeast makes a great stout. It's very clean. The only downside is that it's a slow starter, but if you know that upfront you can just ride with it. It's a good dry yeast.
 

beersk

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I can't speak for the dry yeast companies, so I don't know the real answer(s) to your question. However, I will suggest that during the period in which liquid yeast became easily available, the Irish strain developed a reputation for being difficult to work with. We didn't know much about good yeast handling back then and gobs of new brewers were piling into the hobby, deciding to clone their favorite beer, then earnestly making noob yeast-handling mistakes on their first brew. As a result, it became common advice that the Irish strains weren't worth the hassle when West Coast, German, or Scottish strains got the job done just as nicely but without all the fuss. Again, I don't know the answer to your question, but I would wager that in light of the Irish strains' difficult history they might not be a very lucrative proposition for the dry yeast makers. I don't actually know that, though.

It would be fun to know how many gallons of dry stout are being cranked out each year by homebrewers. I'm sure it's a very impressive total. Of that impressive total, I'd wager that a surprisingly small number of those gallons are being pitched with the Irish strains.
You may be on to something there. Maybe we'll see one one day yet. For now, it's about the only liquid strain I use anymore besides the random use of Wy1007. I've largely gone back to dry yeasts and am happy with the results.
 

Miraculix

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Lalbrew Bry-97 dry yeast makes a great stout. It's very clean. The only downside is that it's a slow starter, but if you know that upfront you can just ride with it. It's a good dry yeast.
I agree! I never made a stout with it, but all the beers I made with it were clean and good. I can really see that one in a clean stout.

Don't fear the lag! :D

Maybe a vitality starter helps. Don't remember if I experienced the lag myself...
 
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NSMikeD

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I pulled the trigger on Nottingham today. I expect to brew during the snow storm tomorrow. I’ll come back to report my experience when I tap.
 

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My next batch will be an Irish stout brewed with W34/70. I have no temperature control and my brew cabinet is in the upper 40s to low 50s this time of year.
 

hopfenstopfen

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That time of year. In all my years of home brewing I never made a Guinness clone even though I love that beer. I brew 2.5 gal batches all grain and prefer dry yeast when I brew. Typically my go to yeast are Safale 05 for American ales and 04 for British ales. But I understand that 05 may be the better choice for the desired higher attenuation in an Irish dry ale. I do have a request into my LHBS for Wyeast 1084 if he has it in stock, but he’s carrying less liquid yeast compared to dry yeast these days.

What dry yeast would you recommend I have a fermentation fridge so temperature control isn’t an issue. I keg after primary and carbonate (CO2 only, no nitrogen.
Good timing! I’m also making a Guinness inspired recipe very soon too. Because I’ve had real Guinness all over Ireland & I can’t seem to brew any recipe straight up I think I will use a repitch of London ale 3.

I have packs of notty & esb too. Any thoughts on la3 in this recipe?
 

kmarkstevens

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I have packs of notty & esb too. Any thoughts on la3 in this recipe?
If you want a dull, flat, lifeless yeast, by all means go with the London III. ;)

Seriously, London III is a yeast that I've done more than a few yeast off experiements with, and shared a couple of times at the LHBS. It has always been found wanting.

For a dry irish stout, I think you want a neutral yeast if you're not using Irish yeast. Notty fits the bill but attenuates a bit more than the Irish.

34/70 is an interesting choice. It too is very clean, and I think would work just fine.
 

Dgallo

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If you want a dull, flat, lifeless yeast, by all means go with the London III. ;)

Seriously, London III is a yeast that I've done more than a few yeast off experiements with, and shared a couple of times at the LHBS. It has always been found wanting.

For a dry irish stout, I think you want a neutral yeast if you're not using Irish yeast. Notty fits the bill but attenuates a bit more than the Irish.

34/70 is an interesting choice. It too is very clean, and I think would work just fine.
LA3 is a huge ester producer and I mean huge, so I don’t know how you are saying it’s boring an lifeless. Don’t get me wrong I would consider it a terrible yeast choice for a Guinness clone but I think your assessment of the yeast is very far off from its capabilities
 

kmarkstevens

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Your mileage may vary, but to my palate London III is dull. I've done maybe 6 batches with LIII, and every batch made with London III has been disappointing.

Looking back thru my brewing notes. My last yeast off was an ordinary bitter with Nottingham, WLP085 and LIII. LIII was by far the least favorite, not only for me but also for the half dozen or so folks at the LHBS.

And I think the board consensus is no way in hell is it the "true" Boddington yeast. Certainly, the few Boddy recipes I did with LIII was not what I was looking for. And nothing like the widget cans of Boddy.

Again, this is just my palate, but LIII wouldn't be one I'd try for an Irish Dry Stout. ;)
 
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NSMikeD

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I rehydrated the yeast before pitching, at about 68*. By mid morning the air lock was bubbling away. So much for Nottingham being slow starter.
A9447856-C928-4DC2-AC74-3B5E0D69077D.jpeg
 

camonick

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I rehydrated the yeast before pitching, at about 68*. By mid morning the air lock was bubbling away. So much for Nottingham being slow starter.
View attachment 719255
I’ve never experienced Nottingham being slow to start, or to finish for that matter. I typically see signs of fermentation within the first 12 hours of pitching a new packet and sometimes 8 hours or less when reusing a cake slurry.
 

hout17

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youngdh

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Inspired by this recent recipe in BYO Guinness Draught clone - Brew Your Own I am planning to do a small test batch with Voss Kveik dry yeast in hopes to produce the " Guiness tang" that they mention.
I’ve now done my Guinness clone twice with Voss Kveik. You're not going to get much if any twang from that yeast. I rely on a little acidulated malt for the twang. I’ve been pleased with the results from the Voss both times compared to when I’ve used Irish ale yeast. Oh, and I was kettle to keg in less than a week with Voss fermented at 95F :).
 

hopfenstopfen

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I’ve now done my Guinness clone twice with Voss Kveik. You're not going to get much if any twang from that yeast. I rely on a little acidulated malt for the twang. I’ve been pleased with the results from the Voss both times compared to when I’ve used Irish ale yeast. Oh, and I was kettle to keg in less than a week with Voss fermented at 95F :).
Careful youngdh! You might be made to wear the dunce cap around these parts for calling your beer a clone & fermenting with a kveik😉 I was under the impression that voss was very orangey. What temp did you ferment your not Guinness clone at?
 

youngdh

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Careful youngdh! You might be made to wear the dunce cap around these parts for calling your beer a clone & fermenting with a kveik😉 I was under the impression that voss was very orangey. What temp did you ferment your not Guinness clone at?
95F was ferm temp. The orange esters were not noticeable to me over the roasty flavors of the dry stout.
Re: clone, I guess I should have phrased it as “my Guinness clone recipe fermented with Voss Kveik”. We could then debate if the resulting beer was still an approximation of a dry Irish stout, e.g. Guinness ;-).
 

hopfenstopfen

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95F was ferm temp. The orange esters were not noticeable to me over the roasty flavors of the dry stout.
Re: clone, I guess I should have phrased it as “my Guinness clone recipe fermented with Voss Kveik”. We could then debate if the resulting beer was still an approximation of a dry Irish stout, e.g. Guinness ;-).
I actually had a similar thought a/b using Voss in a stout. Something more sweet/oatmeal or pastry though. I love chocolate cake with orange zest. I would be interested in hearing about it if you ever try to amplify the Voss esters in a stout!

I deal with arguing over the meaning of words in my real job, I have zero interest in debating beer styles with fellow home brewers. :mug:
 

youngdh

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I actually had a similar thought a/b using Voss in a stout. Something more sweet/oatmeal or pastry though. I love chocolate cake with orange zest. I would be interested in hearing about it if you ever try to amplify the Voss esters in a stout!

I deal with arguing over the meaning of words in my real job, I have zero interest in debating beer styles with fellow home brewers. :mug:
The only way I know how to amplify the esters is to brew hot and seriously under pitch the Voss Kveik which I do both. I ferment 3G batches of which I only pitch 5ml of yeast slurry. The yeast happily takes off inside of 12 hours of pitching and was at final gravity in 48 hours :).
 

OldDogBrewing

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Your mileage may vary, but to my palate London III is dull. I've done maybe 6 batches with LIII, and every batch made with London III has been disappointing.

Looking back thru my brewing notes. My last yeast off was an ordinary bitter with Nottingham, WLP085 and LIII. LIII was by far the least favorite, not only for me but also for the half dozen or so folks at the LHBS.

And I think the board consensus is no way in hell is it the "true" Boddington yeast. Certainly, the few Boddy recipes I did with LIII was not what I was looking for. And nothing like the widget cans of Boddy.

Again, this is just my palate, but LIII wouldn't be one I'd try for an Irish Dry Stout. ;)
So one of the most used yeast in NEIPAs is dull to you? I think a good idea for you would be to work with it a bit more, with temperatures and such, it may not be fitted for a stout but it definitely isn't dull, I'm not criticizing you in any sense, don't get me wrong, I just think that your experience with it has been weird so there's something else to it rather than just a palate thing.

Regarding your Boddington comment, a lot of English breweries used more than one strain and at some point moved to single strain cultures (except Harvey as far as I'm aware) so depending on when you tried Boddington beers and what yeast they actually isolated for the commercial pitch, it might actually be a different strain used by Boddington but not the most of expressive of the blend or one that isn't in use anymore. Or maybe you aren't using it in the same way it was used at Boddington, if you are open to it, I would suggest playing a bit with the yeast, ferm temp, pitch rate, water composition, etc
 

OldDogBrewing

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95F was ferm temp. The orange esters were not noticeable to me over the roasty flavors of the dry stout.
Re: clone, I guess I should have phrased it as “my Guinness clone recipe fermented with Voss Kveik”. We could then debate if the resulting beer was still an approximation of a dry Irish stout, e.g. Guinness ;-).
It may not be the same yeast but it can still be a clone or "to style" if using kveik (or any other yeast family really) as long as it fits the bill in terms giving the same experience overall.

I mean to actually make a beer that's exactly the same, you would need exactly the same ingredients and reproduce the same exact process so basically it can't be done unless you get that information, well maybe you nail it by trial and error but it's too open to luck to be a trusted way to achieve "clone" recipes
 
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NSMikeD

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Bump

I’m about to keg as my secondary. How much lactic acid for a 2.5 gal batch should I add to create that guiness sour taste?
 

youngdh

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I use acidulated malt in the mash. Never tried lactic acid in the keg.
 

Bago-0

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Good article on Guiness clone
 

bkboiler

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I used s-05 once for a dry stout per Jamil's book. It was pretty good...but still doesn't produce the texture I get when I've made several batches with white labs irish ale liquid strain.
 
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NSMikeD

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Good article on Guiness clone
Perfect. That is what I was looking for. 2mls lactic acid should do it for a 2.5 gal batch. I’m leggings g this week, so thank you.
 
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NSMikeD

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Into the keg. Numbers came in good. Taste like coffee right now. I added 2ml of 88% lactic acid to the 2.5 gal keg to give a bit of sour. This recipe (BYO clone) had a good deal of flaked barley so I’m curious how much creamy mouth fill it will produce on CO2

So far, no doubt it’s a dry Irish stout.
 
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