Dry Hopping enough?

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DrDance

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I’ve made a couple neipa’s lately with varying degree of success. But the one thing that seems to be eluding me is getting a strong fruity, juicy, flavour from the dry hopping.
I’ve used mosaic, simcoe, citra, azacca (?) and up to 12 oz. in a 5 gallon batch. Also used imperial dry hop yeast and juice yeast (not on same batch). They taste fine, just not as juicy as that amount of hops would suggest.
Any ideas/thoughts?
 

Dgallo

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I’ve made a couple neipa’s lately with varying degree of success. But the one thing that seems to be eluding me is getting a strong fruity, juicy, flavour from the dry hopping.
I’ve used mosaic, simcoe, citra, azacca (?) and up to 12 oz. in a 5 gallon batch. Also used imperial dry hop yeast and juice yeast (not on same batch). They taste fine, just not as juicy as that amount of hops would suggest.
Any ideas/thoughts?
How are you eliminating chances for oxidation? That’s the biggest culprit of muting hop flavor and aroma
 
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DrDance

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I purge the top of the fermenter with CO2 before and after I add the hops. I also use a large hop bag. I started with a small one but found out quickly how much they expand. So I switched to a huge one that gives plenty of room for coverage.
 

Dgallo

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I purge the top of the fermenter with CO2 before and after I add the hops. I also use a large hop bag. I started with a small one but found out quickly how much they expand. So I switched to a huge one that gives plenty of room for coverage.
Bagged hops have lower extraction than loose hops. Are you cold crashing? Are you kegging or bottling? How are you controlling o2 in any of those processes.
 
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DrDance

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Not cold crashing.
bottling (each bottle purged with co2)
I purge with co2 any time I open the fermenter.
 

Dgallo

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Not cold crashing.
bottling (each bottle purged with co2)
I purge with co2 any time I open the fermenter.
Bottling wand from primary? Or bottling bucket?

Is your dryhop fresh hops every time or have they been previously opened? If the later how well do you store them

Sorry for all the questions. But it will help pin point any issues
 
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DrDance

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Bottling from fast fermenter.
always fresh. Never opened
 

Dgallo

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What was your grain bill,water profile, and gravities ?
 

day_trippr

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I was going to say, what's the water situation? The wrong sulfate to chloride balance will turn off hop presence...

Cheers!
 
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DrDance

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I feel like this is what it is.
Reading many many articles and forums on it I feel like the water chemistry needs some attention. Any suggestions?
I do know my basic water composition/chemistry for my area. What do I need to buy?
 

day_trippr

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Well, it's a check list item when it comes to hop presence, might as well address it :)

There are a number of calculators that will help the brewer transform the available water into style-appropriate brewing liquors.
I've been using Bru'n Water for years, eventually bought the supporter version, and recommend it to anyone willing to learn how to exploit it (it has a learning curve :)) But there are plenty of alternatives out there, so take a look around.

In all likelihood you'll end up buying some gypsum and some calcium chloride - these are two of the more important salts/minerals we use to tune brewing water. You may also end up using some common table salt, and may find a reason to use (tiny) amounts of epsom salt as well. Finally, you may discover your strike and/or sparge liquor could benefit from acid (phosphoric, lactic, etc).

It all starts with the existing water chemistry, so if you have data with decent scope you should have a good start. The rest is just beating numbers together ...

Cheers!
 

Dgallo

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I feel like this is what it is.
Reading many many articles and forums on it I feel like the water chemistry needs some attention. Any suggestions?
I do know my basic water composition/chemistry for my area. What do I need to buy?
Review Bru’n water. Read the basic water knowledge info before you start.


Calcium chloride, gypsum, backing soda, lactic or phosphoric acid, typically. But without us knowing your water chemistry we can’t help much. You may have to build from RO water
 
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DrDance

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That is a big excel sheet (s) to fill.
Thanks for your help. It looks like I’ll be busy figuring Bru’n out for the next little bit. Hopefully this will help with the hoppy flavour
 

jerrylotto

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The big three:
Water chemistry wort (not ambient) temperature control, paranoid oxygen exclusion after fermentation has started

1) Start with distilled or RO water and build your profile with salt additions. Barring that, at least use a Campden tablet to eliminate chloramines, measure and control pH, and have at least some distilled water on hand to dilute tap water - there will almost certainly be some ion in tap that is too high. Cl : SO4 ratio is important for NEIPA

2) Temp control is important for the wort, fermentation is pretty exothermic initially. Make sure you are monitoring and controlling the liquid temperature, not just the ambient temperature.

3) Cold crashing is good because more CO2 and less O2 will be dissolved and it slows down all kinds of kinetics. If I was still bottling, I would build a proper glove box, Now a days, I just closed loop transfer to a purged keg. The only time I bottle is for competition entry and I use a large clear garbage bag as a poor man's glove box to bottle directly from the keg..
 

Lurker

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Quick thought too. Review your dryhop schedule. I like 1st dryhop on day 3 during high krausen (see biotransformation) and 2nd 3 days before packaging. Would highly recommended kegging a NEIPA if at all possible although you sound very aware of oxygenation already. Another thought is to make sure your whirlpooling those late addition hops at a lower temp. I go down to 170* for 20+ min. Sounds like your headed in the right direction for a great NEIPA soon.
 

Mattpaneth

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I feel to get these beers good you gotta dry hop heavy with at least 8oz, and you gotta get the water right. its work but without water and dry hopping then the beer won't take the next step. whirlpool hops only. people will say you need oats but there are plenty in this style without oats. just gotta put effort in with the little steps.
 
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DrDance

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Thanks for all the input!
I just tried another recipe, but this time I changed the water chemistry.
Fingers crossed...
 
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