Drunken experiment

[brewhaha_rva]

So I got drunk and brewed a beer last night. ... I went to my local total wine and picked up a bunch of Belgians: Saison Dupont, Lindemans Gueuze, couple other sours. Drank them all, then had one of my golden strongs (best brew to date, but that's for another day) and a bottle of my London Pride clone.

After all that I got a brilliant idea (jury is out and you are the jury) and crushed up some grain and mashed about 10 lbs of pale malt. (As another aside: I crushed the grain too fine and I don't recommend trying to fix a stuck mash while hammered) and boiled for 90 minutes. OG was about 1.070.

So I took all the dregs from the bottles I drank and pitched them, sours and all. Then I added a package of Muntons Gold I had on hand for stuck fermentations.

I didn't hop the brew at all because I'm going to blend with some sugar free tart cherry juice at the end. But the question I have is, do you think that the bacteria from the sours will stand a chance? There is so little from the dregs and I'm hoping it will sour up. Also, all the other dregs, will any of those take hold in the fermentation or will it be out-competed by the Muntons?

 

[cheezydemon3]

......lol, assuming your slobber bacteria doesn't take hold, all should be well........except for the sugar free juice....how does that happen??

Only time will tell.

 

[Hello]

I somehow believe you'll have an infected beer. I don't think you can just dump dregs from bottles you popped into a beer without incident. Maybe I am wrong, I hope that I am.

Please be careful when you're brewing totally **** faced. It's not worth the injury.

Is there a name for beer that isn't hopped? Is it still beer?

 

[brewhaha_rva]

I suppose you are right, not really a beer. -- and no, brewing while completely hammered isn't a good idea and won't be repeated. I'm adding the tart cherry juice (which isn't as much sugar free as it is no sugar added) because I'd like that to act as the bittering component. It's really just an experiment, I'm hoping for something interesting. If it just ends up an rancid, infected mess, I'll not be too disappointed. Only really out $10 or so of grain at the end of the day.

 

[boydster]

Subscribed! Need to see how this ends...

You didn't drink directly out of the bottles, did you?

I think the bugs will feast on some of the sugars that the Munton's won't, which means the drucken experiment could be a success. But I'm not exactly well-seasoned in making sours so I may be completely wrong.

 

[sweetcell]

Saison Dupont, Lindemans Gueuze, couple other sours. Drank them all, then had one of my golden strongs (best brew to date, but that's for another day) and a bottle of my London Pride clone.

So I took all the dregs from the bottles I drank and pitched them, sours and all. Then I added a package of Muntons Gold I had on hand for stuck fermentations.

I didn't hop the brew at all because I'm going to blend with some sugar free tart cherry juice at the end. But the question I have is, do you think that the bacteria from the sours will stand a chance? There is so little from the dregs and I'm hoping it will sour up. Also, all the other dregs, will any of those take hold in the fermentation or will it be out-competed by the Muntons?

the sacch in the dregs that you added won't be doing much, given their low number. they're way out-numbered by the Muntons.

you wrote "Saison Dupont, Lindemans Gueuze, couple other sours" - out of those, only your "couple other sours" might have souring bugs. Dupont only has sacch, lindemans is pasteurized so nothing viable in there. what were your other sours? assuming you pitched 2 or 3 bottles worth into 5 gallons of 1.070, it's going to take a few months to a year for the bugs to really kick in. i would continue to add dregs, and/or get a bug mix like Roesalare to get the party started. even then, souring bugs aren't fast... give them time.

beer - hops = malt liquor.

 

[broadbill]

I'm not sure there was enough yeast in the dregs of the combined bottles to give you a good fermentation. the Muntons Gold will probably take over if there isn't an infection from unsanitary or generally drunken brewing.

Between that and the lack of hops, it will probably be a very sub-par beer.

 

[brewhaha_rva]

The Gueuze Cuvée René isn't pasteurized, it has lacto and brett in it.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/06/harvesting-sour-beer-bottle-dregs.html

Many lambics either don't have hops or, if they do, they are two years old and stale. So there was a little method in the madness, once the muntons settles down (because it was already rocking and rolling this morning) I'll probably do a starter with another bottle of the cuvee rene and pitch the rest. The cherry juice is a way of getting around racking onto cherries, which I'm always a little sketched out by, and I'm fairly sure most commercial Krieks just add cherry juice anyway, as well as artificial sweetener.

And the brewing was (as I remember it) pretty sanitary. Just slow and bumbling.

 

[brewhaha_rva]

Oh and the other sours were a Monks Cafe Flemmish Sour (Really good) and a Duchess, which I found out later has no viable yeast in it, which I ok because that one tastes a bit like balsamic vinegar and not what I'm after.

 

[sweetcell]

indeed, Cuvee Rene has live bugs... their other (and more popular) gueuze doesn't.

make a starter, but don't use a stir plate. all that O2 will suppress the lacto while boosting the brett (unless you want your brew to be more funk and less sour, in which case go for it!).

were you sanitary about collecting the dregs, pitching them quickly, etc? i would think that that is your biggest potential source of infection.

 

[user 141939]

Although its true the hops in sours are old and stale. They are still important because of the preservative effects. Although now that i think of it. Whats there to preserve in a soured beer?


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[sweetcell]

Whats there to preserve in a soured beer?

Very low pH and alcohol.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Very low pH and alcohol.

I think you misunderstand the question.

The hops are more important in a spontaneously fermented beer than when cultures are added. It keeps all kinds of bacteria out that you don't want in there. Just because some bacteria is in there doesn't mean you want anything and everything to thrive. So to answer your question, the quality of the beer is what needs to be preserved.

 

[user 141939]

Thanks. Thats very interesting that they keep some bad bacteria out while letting the good ones in. I suppose that's all part of the magic


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[brewhaha_rva]

I suppose we will find out shortly, I keep things pretty clean generally but if I get some gnarly infection I'll post photos! All in the interest of experimentation, not really expecting greatness but would be delighted if it is achieved. Either way, I'll keep you abreast.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Thanks. Thats very interesting that they keep some bad bacteria out while letting the good ones in. I suppose that's all part of the magic

I'm not sure it's a matter of good and bad. What's good or bad depends on what you're making. Much of brewing practice has evolved from learning what our ingredients do as well as finding ingredients that have the properties we desire.

 

[hunter_le five]

Subscribed. Interested to see how this turns out.

Oh and the other sours were a Monks Cafe Flemmish Sour (Really good)

I really like that one. Very easy to drink, and relatively mild as far as sours go.

 

[user 141939]

I'm not sure it's a matter of good and bad. What's good or bad depends on what you're making. Much of brewing practice has evolved from learning what our ingredients do as well as finding ingredients that have the properties we desire.

Yes and it looks like not bad or good but maybe timing. I found this quote of a quote on reddit which I guess came from this link http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/04/brewing-lambic-mythbusters-style.html

The main role of hops in a spontaneous fermentation is to inhibit heat tolerant Lactobacillus that would lower the wort pH before the Saccharomyces can complete its initial fermentation. Most of the compounds that are anti-microbial are also bitter. Russian River uses around 25 IBUs of fresh hops in most of their standard sour beers with good results, this should be more than enough to inhibit even wild strains of Lacto.

I don't really consider this to be a preservative effect. I'd say what this is doing is ensuring the fermentation occurs in the desired way. I guess this is way off track for this thread though. I sorry.

 

[brewhaha_rva]

Yes and it looks like not bad or good but maybe timing. I found this quote of a quote on reddit which I guess came from this link http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/04/brewing-lambic-mythbusters-style.html



I don't really consider this to be a preservative effect. I'd say what this is doing is ensuring the fermentation occurs in the desired way. I guess this is way off track for this thread though. I sorry.

This is totally on topic. I held the hops because I wanted to give the bugs a permissive environment in which to thrive. The "Just Cherries" juice that I added has significant amounts of malic acid which will be interesting because (according to Wikipedia) it can Lactobacillus and Pediococcus -- or at least it does in the wine making process, if I'm reading this right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malolactic_fermentation

I'm not a scientist, just trying to learn. Somebody set me straight if I'm wrong.

 

[user 141939]

Malic acid is converted to lactic acid towards the end of primary fermentation by lacto and pedio. Thats what it looks like to me. It works in wine so I guess the question is does it work in beer. How would you know? You'd have to be able to distinguish malic vs lactic acid in the finished beer.





Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[GuldTuborg]

MLF is usually performed by Oenococcus oeni, per your own reference. It states certain strains of lacto and pedio can do it as well, but which strains? How much do they typically convert? How do you know if you have the right strains?

Point is, if you want to effect MLF in your experiment, buy an ML culture. Otherwise, you won't know what your results will be.

 

[brewhaha_rva]

UPDATE: No infection yet, I'm a little concerned the bugs didn't take hold or didn't survive the rather vigorous fermentation. As a side note, I had no idea that munton's gold was such a monster.

I'm going to make a starter and add the dregs of a couple of Cuvee Rene's next week and throw that at the remaining sugars. Hopefully that will turn her sour. I'm also going to add some more tart cherry juice, some pectic enzyme and rack her on to some cherries once it hits final gravity. The cuvee rene has brettanomyces in it so I assume it will have some work to do once the population builds up in the starter.

 

[sweetcell]

do not be concerned about the bugs surviving primary. they're in there. they're just a lot slower than sacch, and you pitched several orders of magnitude fewer brett & bacteria cells than you did of sacch. it will be a while before you see, or taste, the effects of their presence.

this beer is barely a week old. the bugs from your dregs haven't had time to show signs of life. i suggest that you back away, slowly, from the fermenter and leave it alone

if you make a starter, you'll be favoring the brett and inhibiting the lacto and pedio (i'm assuming those two bacteria are in Cuvee Rene, but not positive). if you want your beer to sour, you'll want those bugs. i would just pitch the dregs directly.

another option, which would be cheaper (but less fun) would be to buy a bug mix from wyeast, white labs, ECY, etc.

 

[Hopinista]

The Gueuze Cuvée René isn't pasteurized, it has lacto and brett in it.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/06/harvesting-sour-beer-bottle-dregs.html

Many lambics either don't have hops or, if they do, they are two years old and stale. So there was a little method in the madness, once the muntons settles down (because it was already rocking and rolling this morning) I'll probably do a starter with another bottle of the cuvee rene and pitch the rest. The cherry juice is a way of getting around racking onto cherries, which I'm always a little sketched out by, and I'm fairly sure most commercial Krieks just add cherry juice anyway, as well as artificial sweetener.

And the brewing was (as I remember it) pretty sanitary. Just slow and bumbling.

This is my post to make sure this keeps popping up in my feed

But all lambics have hops.

 

[brewhaha_rva]

Well it's official: It's a sour. Tried it out of the thief yesterday and it's good. I am actually surprised how good. What I didn't get was any of the Saison yeast -- it was absolutely over-matched by the Muntons. But the beer (which my friend who is a professional brewer insists on calling a fruit wine, possibly because of the lack of hops and abundance of juice) has been soured. It's sitting at 1.010 right now and because of the brett in the sours I threw in there, I'm going to let it ride for a month or two but I'm honest-to-goodness happy with how it tastes right now.

In all, I pitched three sour dregs into the wort and poured in 3 quarts of pasteurized all-natural cherry juice (no additives at all). It does not taste like an authentic lambic -- the hops would have been necessary and I concede the point. Once it's bottle and fizzy I'll do full tasting notes. I'm now going to forget this beer exists in my basement for two months. See you guys in August and thanks for all the feedback!

 

[sweetcell]

It does not taste like an authentic lambic -- the hops would have been necessary and I concede the point.

i don't think it's the hops, or lack thereof, that make this brew taste different than a lambic. the hops that are added don't contribute much to the falvor. differences are much more likely because you pitched a lot of sacch first then added a few bugs - vs. lambics that start off with a lot less sacch and a lot more bugs from the outset. you grain bill is different (no unmalted wheat, no turbid mash, etc).

 

[brewhaha_rva]

So I put this very sour faux-kriek in bottles last night, carbonated it to about 2.5 and its going to age for another month or so in the bottle. All things considered, I'm pretty thrilled at how this drunken experiment turned out. It tastes great. Now we have to get through a couple of weeks of unfounded anxiety as I wait for it to carb up in the bottles before I can throw one in the fridge. Thanks everyone for the help and moral support. I can tell you that I'll never brew like this again, I think some celeia or saaz hops would go nicely in this so the no-hop thing was probably a bad idea. That said the thing is 1.006 FG so think the lack of sweetness and tart from the bugs balances out nicely. I'm really quite happy with it. The only thing I can say I regret is that I don't keg so I can't sweeten it. Not like a Lindemans or anything, but just enough for the ladies. (Well, who am I kidding, lady.) I'll post an update on the bottle conditioning in a couple of weeks and tasting notes once the beer is four months old.

Everyone have a great week!

 

[user 141939]

Thanks for the update. I had forgotten about this. And any thread that starts with... 'So I got drunk and brewed a beer last night' will certainly get my attention.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew