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FatDragon

Not actually a dragon.
HBT Supporter
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
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Location
Wuhan, China
I've been dreaming of scrapping my whole ragtag brew setup and starting fresh with equipment designed for my needs. My current setup has quite a few shortcomings, inadequate here, takes up too much space there, and if I could just start over again from scratch I know I could set something up that would fit all of my needs better than my current system without costing much more than I have spent putting together the stuff I currently use.

If you had the chance to scrap or pass on your current setup and build up a new system from a clean slate, what would it look like? Would you go bigger or smaller? Simpler or more complex? Do you dream with a budget or an eye for realistic limitations or does your imagination run wild in spite of money, space, and time limitations?
 
mmmm...i hear ya...
i'm currently doing 2.5g allgrain in a 5 gallon igloo...
it does make good beer, but recently the wall of the cooler buckled a little bit and im tempted to just replace it before a crack develops during a mash and ruins a whole batch of beer (since the insulation isnt food safe)...
i'd probably get a 5g pot and insulate it and mount a no weld ballvalve and thermometer. wouldnt cost too much and is definitely food safe! my existing induction burner and BK do the job (since i just dump the beer into the fermenter through a funnel)...
i definitely need to install a sink in the garage tho...currently there's
nothing out there so i have to walk back and forth to the kitchen to sanitize the equipment!
 
Hmmm, I bought my kit second hand. 3 tier. 2 rectangular coolers and a keggle. I really like it. The only thing I would change is how often I brew. I need to brew more. BUT... if money were no object. I would probably do some things differently.
 
Having the ability to brew more than my needs allow me to share more beer. That allows me to get more input on that that I do share. It also free's. up more time for other things. I was doing 5 gallons now I do tens.:mug:
 
I'm in a similar position.

My 1 gallon system I built myself, I love it to bits. 2 vessel electric BIAB with recirculating mash, fast and robust, cost about $120 all up.

My 5 gallon system is gas powered and less fun, brewday is much more hands on and takes longer, plus gas is expensive. I'd love to replace it with a grainfather and have everything just work in one small tidy package, but for the same $$$ I could DIY an electric BK, get a 30 amp / 240v circuit installed, and have enough leftover to switch to kegs.

All a question of priorities really. I do love the electric brewday a lot more than the gas brewday, no doubt.
 
Keeping it simple and easy to clean are the top priorities for me.
I've considered adding a pump, but then that's more stuff to get out and clean up and put away.
If money was no object, I'd change many things, including my brewing equipment.
An electric brewing rig would mean new wiring to my kitchen, I really need a bigger sink, so the cabinets would need to be changed, might as well change the flooring and ventilation at the same time.....
I've got kids in college, so I guess I'm keeping my ghetto rig for now.
 
Was exactly in the same boat as you just a few weeks ago.

Used two electrical cookers for mash, sparge and boil and an immersion chiller for cooling.

The electrical cookers never managed to reach a rolling boil and the temperature display was fairly inaccurate, leading to a few hot mashes.

I had to cart my wort into the bathroom for cooling to attach it to the faucet (adapter size).

I bit the bullet and got myself a Grainfather, couldn't be happier with it. Accurate readings, rolling boil, easy to clean, good mash efficiency, etc. So far the batch size totally fits my needs as I just brew batches to fit my corny kegs. I'll be sticking with this setup for a while and probably sell off some of my older equipment.
 
I'm older now, and don't like the amount of work in a brewday.

If I started again, I'd go with something like a picobrew or grainfather. I love my 1/2 barrel all-electric HERMS, but it's too much for my needs and my desire to work my butt off these days.
 
Having just completed my new rig build, I have a different perspective from when I started. I love my system, but the new more complex design makes brew days more of a challenge, at least until I get it dialed in.

Having researched and gone through the MANY threads on HBT, it's obvious that there's no one way to brew beer. Like people, each brew rig is unique to its brewer.

If I were to start over again, I would first honestly answer the following questions:

1) What's your budget
2) Do you have a dedicated brewing space and how much
3) indoor or outdoor
4) gas or electric (largely decided by ?'s 2 and 3 above)
5) Batch size: realistically, how quickly can you consume your normal batch and how many different beers do you have on at any one time
6) Beer style: what style beer do you typically brew
-Lager or ale
-big bold hoppy, or bright clear beer
7) Time: how often and how much time per brew session do you want
8) Control freak seeking perfection or RDWHAHB set it and forget it "I still made beer!"
9) Sculpture or Function. Myself included, I think a lot of us get carried away in our design and to us aesthetics are just as important as function. There's nothing wrong this this, there are amazing rigs out there and we should all be proud of what we built and take pride in them, just saying it's not necessary to make great beer but does add another layer of fun to an already great hobby.
10) Mechanical and Electrical competencies. If going automated and/or electric how adept are you at building and trouble shooting.

My last suggestion is also not to forget about fermentation and serving. If you have a limited budget, don't forget the importance of good fermentation and serving equipment. These are just as important, if not more, to making beer than making wort.

Good luck and there are millions of HBT members who are happy to help.
 
I brewed for years on a pretty typical 3 vessel keggle system with a round cooler MT. It was fine but I got tired of having to brew outdoors (it's cold as balls for much of the year here) and lug all my kit up and down from the basement. That combined with a desire to be able to simplify, shorten the brew day, and brew on weeknights (I have small kids so weekend brewing time is scarce).

This winter I sold it and built a 15 gal recirculating eBIAB system. Could not be happier. I'm making the best beer in my 15 years of brewing and accomplished all of the goals above.

Build thread is here (note I've dropped the basket in favour of a wilser bag and it works fine so far):
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=596834
 
We do partial boils with steeping grains, then top off the fermentor with water. I just picked up a 10 gallon brew kettle, which will allow us to either do full boils for 5 gallon batches, or BIAB, or continue what we do and do 10 gallons at a time.
Need to get some carboys though instead of buckets....BIAB appeals to me, but it scares me a bit too!
 
So far I enjoy brewing the way I do, but I have upgraded some items from the second hand gear I started with (upgraded kettle and ferm control, for example).

All things considered, I'm not sure I'd want to go to BIAB just because I enjoy the process of using my cooler based MLT.

That being said, brewing in the winter sucks and a nice indoor brewing setup would be nice.

If I could do whatever I wanted, I'd have a brewing room or outbuilding with something like a spikes electric setup. I'd have plenty of SS table top space, and large, deep cleaning sink, and a good source of cooling water. It would have a floor that was water safe with a drain so that I could hose it off periodically. It would also have cabinets for storage and ability to vent off humidity. A cooling/carbonation fridge with separate CO2 pressures for up to three kegs.

Throw in a good way to get my kegs to the serving location (a bar with at least three taps) and I'd be all set.

I'm still having fun with what I have though....
 
Okay, I think it's my turn:

On the brewhouse side, I would love to upgrade to a 20 gallon kettle with recirculating eBIAB and a hoist for hanging the grain bag over the kettle and a bigger, better immersion chiller. Big enough for 15 gallon batches of session-strength beers, probably small enough to manage a 5-6 gallon batch if I so desire.

On the refrigeration side, I'd scrap my mess of refrigerators (it's an abomination, especially for an apartment dweller) and simplify to a chest freezer with my existing STC-1000 controller, probably with heat tape around the sides for warmer brews in the winter. I'd save space and get much better temperature control and range, including the chance to brew lagers and cold crash on a larger scale.

On the fermentation side, I'd like to go with these 25L food-grade plastic jerry cans that they use in China for stuff like bulk cooking oil and storing big batches of baijiu from the local distillery. The low footprint means I can ferment more beer in the same space, they're cheap so replacement wouldn't be an issue, and the mouths are a lot bigger than those of carboys or better bottles so they'd be easier to clean (for the most part).

For packaging and serving, I'd like to have a few 20L kegs for personal use and a bunch of 5L kegs with those regulator/tap/mini CO2 canister setups for bringing to parties and sharing beer with friends. I often share the same volumes of beer with friends here because of the Chinese system of guanxi, which is a "friendship by exchange of gifts and favors" sort of thing, but it's a much bigger pain to do when you have to clean, delabel, fill, cap, condition and then cart over a case of bottles. 5L kegs would make the process a lot easier, and they'd be a lot more likely to return the keg than the bottles, which many of them see as garbage regardless of how much I emphasize that I'd like them back, preferably rinsed out (and I can't emphasize it all that much without devaluing the gift a bit and messing with the guanxi). I wouldn't give up on bottling entirely, but kegging most of my beer would be a nice way to save some time and space.

Since many things in China are very cheap, I'd estimate that I could get the eBIAB (if I build it myself, meaning I need to learn some skills and probably buy or borrow some tools that I don't currently have), fermentation, and refrigeration stuff for probably $400-$500 US. Unfortunately, kegs are not cheap here so I'd probably have to spend another $300 just for a basic setup with a couple 20L's and a couple 5L's with those dispensing setups, and $500 or more to get to where I'd like to be with a couple extras of each size.
 
I have a 3 tier gravity system. 10 gallon pot on a turkey fryer HLT feeding into a 10 gallon water cooler mash tun. That feeds into a 10 gallon BK on a Bayou Classic SP10 burner. It is high enough to feed into my 6 gallon Better Bottles or 6.5 gallon buckets.

I want to come inside so for electric I would like one of the following:

Grainfather
10 Gallon Brew Boss

or:
eHERMS_System_large.JPG
 
Seems odd that kegs would be expensive in China. Less than 2 minutes on google and I found used corny kegs for $15-30, new ones for $52.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/5-gallon-19L-Stainless-steel-Ball_60596933787.html

~$50 new is about as low as I've seen, and while it's cheap compared to a new keg in the US it's still an investment. I haven't seen used kegs sold domestically for less than ~$35 and everyone I know who's bought used kegs here has said that it's a crap shoot - buy five and you're almost guaranteed at least one completely irreparable one, if not more, and they're sold as-is so you're stuck with unreturnable scrap metal. Since 5L kegs cost almost as much as 20L kegs and it's another $20-30 (I think, might be more) for the self-contained dispensing setup, that's about $300 for two 20L's and two 5L's with dispensing setups, with the potential to save about $60 if you buy used and get lucky.

To me, that's a worthy investment. It's a lot harder to sell my wife on the idea. She'd maybe go for the other stuff for the combination of space saved, time saved (potentially fewer brewdays), and the possibility of joining in China's booming unregulated cottage industry and... err... "accepting donations to a charity of our choosing" when we share beer with our friends (which is not something we currently do).
 
I feel I should weigh in here with *something* but have no specific advice....

[Interesting note: I visited Fatdragon in January; had a wonderful time meeting him, seeing a local microbrewery, and getting a sense for what his situation is in China.]

I do have a general suggestion, and I know that some depends on the specific financial situation anyone finds themselves in. That is, if you're going to upend it all and refit, get what you want. Better to spend another $200 and get what you want and need than the false economy of penny-pinching.

While there are times you can go with the less expensive option, in my experience that usually means less capable. Since this sounds like a once-in-a-lifetime refit (or maybe once in a decade... :) ), do it right.

Your physical space constraints mean an emphasis on maximizing utility while minimizing space utilized. It's an interesting problem--more so when viewed from afar, believe me :)--so make the makeover be something you'll still be pleased with in 5 years.

And I think the kegging idea is interesting--and something that will really help you.
 
I have a 3 vessel gas RIMS. It's pretty cool, but takes up a lot of space and time to brew on. If I were to start over, I would do a 10 gallon electric BIAB with recirc and ferment in the kettle. One vessel to clean and saves a lot of money. I don't brew enough for tying up my kettle during fermentation to be a problem.
 
Only upgrade I need a 20 gallon mash kettle. I built my brew stand to hold 90% of the gear(I share a few pieces with the kitchen still), be fairly compact at 4' long and 2' wide, and it is on casters so I can roll it out of the way when not in use.
 
Short answer no, i am not wanting to change and am happy. Imo once you get to 800 dollars in cost the grainfather becomes appealing. Its small and the 220v version (i think they have one) could be fast. Very easy to get out, use, and put away. Although it lacks upward mobility its pretty sweet. I designed my sytem recently and spent a little more money to have things built for me as 1. I wanted small 2. I wanted instant success. I havent seen anything that makes me go ooh i want that other than a winch. I researched and researched ebiab and know what i came up with kicks azz.

Small
Powerful
Quick
Upward mobility
Inexpensive .... didnt want to outspend a grainfather

I can brew 5g in 2.5 hours and 10 in 3. I could probably brew 15 g at a time and with a 15 g corny or sanke, would be in business. The only 3 things i have yet to build/buy are a stand, a cheap aluminum 30 gallon pot and 80ft cord so i could brew anywhere including inside. Come to think of it i am tired of moving stuff around and if I had the cord to get to my garage i could keep everything in there ready to go. So what is this amazing 400 dollar system, ill tell you. Its a heat stick, yep a heatstick. See if you mount the element you need to remove it or buy or make more for each kettle, while cheap enough i didnt want to do that. No reason to recirculate imo as a cooler would work to hold temp well and would be cheaper and easier then pumps and lines if mash temp matters that much to you. I believe in passive mash temp mashing. Figured out how to chill in 5 mins with 40 dollar ic and dont feel the need to change there. Am really considering buying bulk dme and doing basic brewings 15 minute pale ale. I think i could brew 10 gallons in like 45 minutes, which could really keep a pipeline going. So extract has really become a huge thing in my mind lately. So here is the system after too much ado.

Brew hardware ss hot rod with 5500 watt element, 15 g pot, 40 dollar ic, and jager busch controller. Sadly jb passed away but some of his cheap amazing builds are still floating out there. I heat water and then pull stick, so i can seal pot, but can and maybe should mount heat stick (simple and easy to remove mount, its a butterfly screw), but that would mess with chilling. And then pull bags and put stick back in. Thats it. If i had 30g pot could do same with it and full volume 15 g batches. So thats what i came up with, hope you find what you are looking for! I know i did. I would hate to see you spend a bunch of money only to realize zymatic or grainfather would have been cheaper and better. A final note, imo it seems that there are people who want to build things and others who want grainfather. As long as it makes you happy that is what is key.
 
I would do a 10 gallon electric BIAB with recirc and ferment in the kettle. One vessel to clean and saves a lot of money. I don't brew enough for tying up my kettle during fermentation to be a problem.


My thoughts exactly, perhaps a 20 gallon to be 10 gallon batch capable. Not sure I would bother with recirculation as I do fine now with just insulating the kettle.

With a healthy pitch, most beers can be transferred in 7 days so you could be brewing weekly, or certainly every 10-14 days.

I'm surprised more folks don't kettle ferment, I've been doing it for a few years and enjoy the simplicity and labor savings. For a primary ferment, I don't feel you need a perfectly sealed fermenter with high tech clamps and gaskets, just the kettle lid and a sheet of plastic works fine ime.
 
I would kettle ferment except for the fact that carrying my kettle through my house and into lower level closet with 5 or worse 10 gallons is sketch. My new idea from jay akenthey (sp?) Is to ferment in ldpe bags in my bucket. No mess, no fuss.

As for recirculation consider this: If someone wanted to whirlpool hops and whirlpool in general to remove trub, or maybe help with cooling then I can see that. Also depending on someones size and strength a pump could be really advantageous in brewing, so if one has a pump might as well recirculate to, right. Imo, and this is not the place for a debate, either agree or disagree, trying to hold a certain mash temp etc., etc. is more than plausibly substantially over rated.
 
The only thing I would change would be my brew area.

I would buy a new house with a 9 or 10 foot ceiling in the finished basement with a large open floor plan. On one end of the basement I would have my all stainless brew area. One the other end I would have a big screen TV with a wrap around couch and Lazy boy recliner. In the center along the wall I would have a long authentic Irish bar with swivel chairs. In the center I would have a red pool table with leather pockets. On the other wall I would have classic arcade games. During the mash I would stop at the bar and pour myself a cold beer. Heading towards the TV I would stop off and practice a few trick shots. After watching Scarface for a bit I'd head back to check on the mash stopping off and getting the high score on Pacman.

That'd be about the only thing I'd change
 
I built for simplicity, all gravity, no pumps, no lifting until the wort is in the fermenting buckets. Less to clean so shorter brew day, works well, easy to build for those with no electrical know how...
 
I would kettle ferment except for the fact that carrying my kettle through my house and into lower level closet with 5 or worse 10 gallons is sketch. My new idea from jay akenthey (sp?) Is to ferment in ldpe bags in my bucket. No mess, no fuss.

As for recirculation consider this: If someone wanted to whirlpool hops and whirlpool in general to remove trub, or maybe help with cooling then I can see that. Also depending on someones size and strength a pump could be really advantageous in brewing, so if one has a pump might as well recirculate to, right. Imo, and this is not the place for a debate, either agree or disagree, trying to hold a certain mash temp etc., etc. is more than plausibly substantially over rated.

I have seen some really cheap pumps, like 20$ that are supposedly food safe up to the same temps as a march/chugger. Not as powerful, obviously, but should be plenty for recirculating. I do like being able to set my temperature and forget about it, and if you're already going all electric for 20$ might as well do it I think.
 
Only upgrade I need a 20 gallon mash kettle. I built my brew stand to hold 90% of the gear(I share a few pieces with the kitchen still), be fairly compact at 4' long and 2' wide, and it is on casters so I can roll it out of the way when not in use.


Hey MaryB - do you have a build thread or perhaps some pictures of your rig that you could point me to please?
 
Pictures scattered in my photobucket and there is a thread in the show us your brew stands

IMG_20160604_1715208131_zpsfuspvymt.jpg


Base is an commercial AV cabinet from a school I found at an auction for $5. I added the riser and left extension using unistrut https://www.menards.com/main/electr...m?tid=9024278639376094230&bargainStoreId=3270 and for the upright some heavy duty shelf standards and brackets. Top shelf is rock solid even with 10 gallons of water in it(brackets are rated for 300 pounds). Same thing could be built around any heavy duty rolling cabinet. Everything is gravity fed even to the 5 gallon fermenting buckets that sit on the floor to drain the BK. You can't see them but there are a pair of 200 pound rated casters under the left end.
 
Pictures scattered in my photobucket and there is a thread in the show us your brew stands

IMG_20160604_1715208131_zpsfuspvymt.jpg


Base is an commercial AV cabinet from a school I found at an auction for $5. I added the riser and left extension using unistrut https://www.menards.com/main/electr...m?tid=9024278639376094230&bargainStoreId=3270 and for the upright some heavy duty shelf standards and brackets. Top shelf is rock solid even with 10 gallons of water in it(brackets are rated for 300 pounds). Same thing could be built around any heavy duty rolling cabinet. Everything is gravity fed even to the 5 gallon fermenting buckets that sit on the floor to drain the BK. You can't see them but there are a pair of 200 pound rated casters under the left end.


Thanks! Nice work!
 
A bigger cellar for storage(mine barely fits 300 bottles).

A better bottling system(seems they haven't invented this yet ;D)

I'll be switching from stovetop to a bulldog beerbrewer this summer, as i've had it having to wait too long for boiling and want better control in the mashing.
 
A bigger cellar for storage(mine barely fits 300 bottles).

A better bottling system(seems they haven't invented this yet ;D)

I'll be switching from stovetop to a bulldog beerbrewer this summer, as i've had it having to wait too long for boiling and want better control in the mashing.

Something I was considering for cellaring, assuming the temp in your room is good... Legal sized file cabinets. Most are perfect size for 12 oz bottles. And they can be found cheap.
 
The only thing I would change would be my brew area.

I would buy a new house with a 9 or 10 foot ceiling in the finished basement with a large open floor plan. On one end of the basement I would have my all stainless brew area. One the other end I would have a big screen TV with a wrap around couch and Lazy boy recliner. In the center along the wall I would have a long authentic Irish bar with swivel chairs. In the center I would have a red pool table with leather pockets. On the other wall I would have classic arcade games. During the mash I would stop at the bar and pour myself a cold beer. Heading towards the TV I would stop off and practice a few trick shots. After watching Scarface for a bit I'd head back to check on the mash stopping off and getting the high score on Pacman.

That'd be about the only thing I'd change

The only thing.......That right there is funny.
 
Something I was considering for cellaring, assuming the temp in your room is good... Legal sized file cabinets. Most are perfect size for 12 oz bottles. And they can be found cheap.

It's a real cellar, nice and cold, sadly also tiny and very low, so anything in there has to be low and fit through a tiny door
 
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