Dough in temp....

[Rob2010SS]

Hey Guys. Been doing some reading since I want to make the jump from Extract to AG. One of the things I've stumbled across that is confusing me is the "dough in" temperature. The videos I've watched thus far have said to heat your water to your desired "strike temp" and then add your grains which, if you've done your math correctly, should get you to your desired mash temp. However, just heard about a method where you heat the water to 130ish, mix in your grain and make sure you don't get any dough balls, hold it there for 20 or 30 min, and THEN add additional hot water to get up to your desired mash temp.

What is the difference other than the obvious? Is this something that can very from recipe to recipe? What does the holding at 130 do? Just really confused on this part.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Smellyglove]

130f is basically doughing in at a high protein rest temperature. If you do this your efficiency will get a little bump comparing to doughing in right at saccharification temp and timing mash-rest from there. I'd rather just do the numbers correctly and hit the desired temperature at dough-in. Less work, and less data (notes) to handle. There are online-calculators for this, and take notes since every system is different, you'll be hitting those temps with ease after a few tries.

 

[C-Rider]

130f is basically doughing in at a high protein rest temperature. If you do this your efficiency will get a little bump comparing to doughing in right at saccharification temp and timing mash-rest from there. I'd rather just do the numbers correctly and hit the desired temperature at dough-in. Less work, and less data (notes) to handle. There are online-calculators for this, and take notes since every system is different, you'll be hitting those temps with ease after a few tries.

Yea and if you mash in a cooler it's humbug to get the right temp and amount of water to add. I just pre-heat the cooler and add grain calculating from past mashes what the doughin and mash temps should be.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Smellyglove, thanks for the info. That helps. What exactly does the protein rest do, and why does that give you a bump in efficiency? (I know that's getting a bit deep in the science of it but figured I'd ask anyway)

C-Rider, can you elaborate a bit? How do you preheat the cooler? Are you saying that you just heat up the water to a point where you think you'll hit your mash temp after adding the grain?

 

[Hammy71]

I've always used this, even when I use a cooler. The calculator works the best for every one I've tried. (Even better than Beersmith)...


http://www.brewheads.com/batch.php

 

[McKnuckle]

Pre-heating the cooler just means filling it with hot water and letting it sit for a short time, then dumping out that water. This heats the plastic itself. You then proceed to dough in with your grist and strike water at the properly calculated temperature (using one of many calculators found online).

The pre-heating step removes the possibility of the cooler itself absorbing heat from the water, skewing your carefully crafted temperature calculation, and causing the initial mash temp to be lower than expected.

A bit wordy, that explanation, hope it makes sense.

 

[applescrap]

Congrats on making the jump into ag brewing. It has been a little trial and error for me. Every set up has been different and there are other factors like grain temp, outside temp or maybe inside, etc... I think the method you mention is probably viable but to much work for me and idk about starting with that method in your first few brews. I like the idea of erroring higher and then stirring to temp. Better to cool it then add heat, imo. I could give you a guess at a good temp, but you need to give an idea of grain temp, outside vs inside, setup. Best of luck

 

[Smellyglove]

Pre-heating the cooler just means filling it with hot water and letting it sit for a short time, then dumping out that water. This heats the plastic itself. You then proceed to dough in with your grist and strike water at the properly calculated temperature (using one of many calculators found online).

The pre-heating step removes the possibility of the cooler itself absorbing heat from the water, skewing your carefully crafted temperature calculation, and causing the initial mash temp to be lower than expected.

A bit wordy, that explanation, hope it makes sense.

Um.. Why not just take into account the heat loss when heating up the strike water? Instead of heating water and filling the cooler twice.. It will take maximum three tries to hit the correct temp.

 

[McKnuckle]

You can do that too, but then you are guessing at how much the heat loss will be. I was simply explaining to OP who asked what pre-heating meant. I don't have a religious affiliation with either procedure, although lately I've been preheating.

 

[casualbrewer]

Go with biab. Can dough in at whatever temp you want and just heat up your mash tun/kettle to reach desired temp. Never have to worry about missing mash temp.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Pre-heating the cooler just means filling it with hot water and letting it sit for a short time, then dumping out that water. This heats the plastic itself. You then proceed to dough in with your grist and strike water at the properly calculated temperature (using one of many calculators found online).

I would even suggest something easier compared to dumping, with regards to pre-heating:

Determine the volume and temp (via software or website) that you need to do your initial infusion/dough-in. Then simply add that volume of water to your MLT, except shoot for 10°F above that instruction. Let that sit for 5-10min until the water falls down to the instructed temp, then add your grains. Your MLT will be pre-heated and you'll have expended no extra effort. It's always easier to quickly cool (via stirring) than to heat.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Simplest way is to work backwards. If you want 154F mash, add approx. 12F, to get target water temp of 166F in the cooler. Then add another 7F (to account for heating up the mash tun) to get strike water temp of 173F. That'll get you pretty close for water ratios of 1.2-1.5 qt/lb. After doing a batch or two, adjust the temperature deltas as needed.

 

[pvpeacock]

As noted by Cactus above, it is always easier to cool strike water that is too hot than to heat strike water that is too cold, particularly after you mash in. For that reason, I always have a 1 gallon pitcher of cold water handy when I mash in. I use BeerSmith to estimate what my strike water temp. should be based on water volume, grain volume, grain temp. and mash tun temp. After I mash in, if the temp. is higher than I wanted, I just add cold water a little at a time while stirring until I reach my desired temp. Does that increase the strike water amount and affect the grain to water ratio? Yes, but who cares. In my opinion, grain to water ratios are over hyped anyway and are less important than mash temp.

 

[McKnuckle]

Let that sit for 5-10min until the water falls down to the instructed temp, then add your grains...

This totally works for many brewers, but since I underlet my water into the grain vs. pouring grain into the water, it isn't an option for me.

 

[YeasternStar]

After a five or six year hiatus from brewing I am getting ready to put my Brew-Magic back to work again. The good folks at Sabco recommend mixing the grain and water at room temperature rather than using hot strike water, and that is how I have always done it until now. After reading a number of articles on doughing-in I have decided to give it a try to see if I can detect any difference in the quality of my brews. None of my brews has ever been what I would call commercial quality, but then again they have been as good as some of what I have drunk from a tap at a pub. Maybe I will try my hand at a lager and see if that comes out cleaner. I now have access to a refrigerator and a freezer, so I can ferment and condition properly. This discussion is going to give me enough information to do my first hot dough-in.

 

[Bago-0]

What type of brewing system are you using? The purpose of a 130 rest (Protein rest) is to break down large proteins that cause haze. The lower the mash temp you are favoring a more fermentable wort. I use a breweasy and recirculate so I start on the lower end and then ramp up to my desired mash temp. Some of the strike temp calculators such as Beersmith will take into account the mash tun weight and material as well as temp of the mash tun and grain to better calculate a strike temp.

 

[madscientist451]

The good folks at Sabco recommend mixing the grain and water at room temperature rather than using hot strike water, and that is how I have always done it until now. After reading a number of articles on doughing-in I have decided to give it a try to see if I can detect any difference in the quality of my brews.

I never thought about doughing-in at room temperature, although I've done step mashes starting at about 120F.
I searched around and can't really find much about the subject, although an old thread mentioned that some Czech breweries used to dough-in at about 90F and then go from there. I might try it next time I do a pilsner.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=3175.0

 

[YeasternStar]

What type of brewing system are you using? The purpose of a 130 rest (Protein rest) is to break down large proteins that cause haze. The lower the mash temp you are favoring a more fermentable wort. I use a breweasy and recirculate so I start on the lower end and then ramp up to my desired mash temp. Some of the strike temp calculators such as Beersmith will take into account the mash tun weight and material as well as temp of the mash tun and grain to better calculate a strike temp.

My system is a Sabco BrewMagic with three kettles, a recirculation pump and electric heat exchanger. It is capable of doing step mashes, but Sabco recommends starting every mash, whether step or single, at room temperature. I'm sure they have a reason for that, but nowhere in the manual can it be found. I haven't found any particular problems doing it that way so far and therefore no real reason to change. It's just that nobody else is doing things that way and I'm ready to try a hot infusion to see how well it works.

 

[YeasternStar]

I never thought about doughing-in at room temperature, although I've done step mashes starting at about 120F.
I searched around and can't really find much about the subject, although an old thread mentioned that some Czech breweries used to dough-in at about 90F and then go from there. I might try it next time I do a pilsner.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=3175.0

Yeah, the only place I have seen it so far is in the Sabco manual. Considering how long it takes the BrewMagic to get from 75-80 degrees up to 150 degrees or so, it might actually be providing a rest at room temp. It hasn't caused any problems, but I'm sure it affects the wort in some way.

 

[Bobby_M]

My opinion of Sabco is that they seem to be stuck in 1995 as everything feels a bit dated including that advice. If you run every mash through acid rest, protein rest, beta, etc then you have the potential of creating very thing beers with poor head retention if the malts you use are already highly modified (as most modern malts tend to be).

I'm not saying step mashes beginning at near room temperature don't have their place, but it's a tool to be used when you know why you're doing it.

 

[odie]

I start at room temps. I have a BIAB set up. I turn the heater on and immediately dough it. ZERO dough balls. The temps ramp up to 150 pretty quickly since I recirc the whole time.

There is really no need for a protien rest with todays fully modified malts. It's just a "traditional step" that has stuck around. Not saying there are no malts that need it. But most grains you will use don't.

 

[YeasternStar]

I

My opinion of Sabco is that they seem to be stuck in 1995 as everything feels a bit dated including that advice. If you run every mash through acid rest, protein rest, beta, etc then you have the potential of creating very thing beers with poor head retention if the malts you use are already highly modified (as most modern malts tend to be).

I'm not saying step mashes beginning at near room temperature don't have their place, but it's a tool to be used when you know why you're doing it.

I agree. The BrewMagic is only sort of automated, with the main heat being all manually operated. Their excuse for that is "a brewer should be involved hands-on". I'd say moving that 15-gallon keg full of soaked mash off the top of the rack and cleaning it out constitutes hands-on, but I guess they disagree. Some of that 1995 thinking you mentioned!

 

[YeasternStar]

I start at room temps. I have a BIAB set up. I turn the heater on and immediately dough it. ZERO dough balls. The temps ramp up to 150 pretty quickly since I recirc the whole time.

There is really no need for a protien rest with todays fully modified malts. It's just a "traditional step" that has stuck around. Not saying there are no malts that need it. But most grains you will use don't.

Today's malts certainly make a difference. The Sabco I have uses a gas burner under the kettle for its main heat and it takes some time to raise the temp up. The recirc heat is only a small exchanger made to maintain set-point, so it really doesn't help in that regard. I'm thinking of converting it to electric heat.

 

[odie]

I have no idea what a Sabco is. everyone has their set up different than everyone else. a lot of opinions and advice may or may not apply for your specific needs.

 

[Bobby_M]

I have no idea what a Sabco is. everyone has their set up different than everyone else. a lot of opinions and advice may or may not apply for your specific needs.

They've been around a while. Sam from Dogfishhead got started on a Brew Magic and it's still on display in Milton.

 

[day_trippr]

I remember seeing an original keggle-based SABCO system for the first time and thinking it was space-age brewing

Cheers!

 

[MicroMickey]

"Dough-in" is an old traditional mash step but the term is normally misused today. With under-modified malts and decoction mashing, it really was a big deal. The original dough-in was just that – a small amount of water was added to the grist and it was kneaded like bread dough. Many references call for using ambient temperature water but other references state “warm” water. The dough-in phase could last for hours and allowed the grist to hydrate long before the alpha and beta amylases got to work. Today, the mash-in is done at almost any starting temperature and allows the grist to hydrate with or without amylase activity.

 

[jerrylotto]

Why is everybody ignoring an acid rest? Peptase does some pretty cool things but it's more or less gone by 120F. I like to start around 90 or 95F (peptase activity is optimum at 98.6F) then I ramp up to 143F to optimize beta activity, then 153F for balanced alpha/beta.

 

[MicroMickey]

In the days before high tech gadgetry like the thermometer and hydrometer, brewers would mash-in or raise the dough-in temp by infusion to “blood temperature” of about 99o. All they knew was that it worked. Science has determined that phytic acid is produced from phytin in the malt by the enzyme phytase. Phytin is a calcium/magnesium phosphate. Generally, the paler the malt, the more phytin it contains. This weak acid brings the pH of the mash down to reasonable levels so the other enzymes can do their jobs efficiently. This rest is also used in German wheat beer production to develop ferulic acid which is a precursor to 4-vinyl guaiacol; the clove-like phenol we expect in such a beer. Modern fully modified malts may have reduced or eliminated the need for an acid rest in most beers; at least for the sake of producing acid. In 2000, Spaten in Munich went to a single infusion mash in their Franziskaner wheat beer without any perceivable change in the finished beer – go figure! However, even if you don’t have the need to produce these acids in your mash, this rest does other things. Peptides are the supporting structure for beta-glucans which are the “glue” in cell walls. This “glue” binds the cellulose which forms those walls. As the peptides are broken down, so go the beta-glucans. Two enzymes work together to dissolve these walls and allow the cell contents to hydrolyze. Beta-glucanase and cytase are the enzymes responsible for this and both work best at a temperature of 98o to 113o.

 

[RM-MN]

Why is everybody ignoring an acid rest? Peptase does some pretty cool things but it's more or less gone by 120F. I like to start around 90 or 95F (peptase activity is optimum at 98.6F) then I ramp up to 143F to optimize beta activity, then 153F for balanced alpha/beta.

In 2000, Spaten in Munich went to a single infusion mash in their Franziskaner wheat beer without any perceivable change in the finished beer – go figure!

If a major producer of beer makes a change in going to single infusion without a perceivable change in the finished beer, that would be the reason everybody is ignoring the acid rest. Simple single infusion is much easier and faster than going through the various rests and if the result is the same.....