Does Higher Mash Efficiencies Equal Thinner Less Malty Beer?

[wobdee]

Wondering what others think about this? I use to crush my grains super fine and get 90% efficiency but some of the beers seemed a little thin or watery at times. Lately I've opened up my mill setting a bit and used a little more grain to achieve an 80% efficiency and the beers taste better to me. I think I'd rather pay a few pennies more for a little extra grain and better beer than boast about high efficiencies.

 

[robert843]

Good question. I am at about 80% and am content to spend a few extra pennies.

 

[Upthewazzu]

depends more on the amount of grains/type of grains, mash temp, and yeast attenuation, imo.

 

[RM-MN]

I think you are right about the beers fermenting out more with a fine milling and I have an idea of why. When you do a conventional mash it takes quite a while for the grains to wet through and for conversion to complete. During this time the grains are at mash temperature and the beta amylase is denatured before all the grains are converted. This leaves the unfermentable dextrines that give you the malty beer. When you mill fine the particles are so small that they are wet through nearly immediately and the amylase enzymes work so fast that you lose out on the dextrines. I'm not even sure that going to a higher mash temp will solve this. Experiments are ongoing. Today I mashed at 159 to see how that high of a temperature affects the final gravity. Stay tuned for more in about 2 weeks.

 

[Owly055]

This really doesn't make sense to me..... Higher efficiency equates to more malt being produced from the starches in your grain. If higher efficiency meant producing glucose, this would make sense.

The temperature of your mash not the efficiency of it governs the fermentability of your wort, and the body of your beer. I would say you are confusing fermentability and efficiency. The other factor regarding the malty flavor is the IBUs. Your hops IBUs will mash the malty flavor of a beer...... that is the balance between OG and IBUs.

I won't argue that efficiency is the ultimate goal of good brewing..... It's not. Good beer is, but efficiency does NOT detract from body or malty flavor. I would say you are attributing a thinness to the wrong cause. I routinely hit the high 80's, and sometimes crack 90% and my beers are often rich and malty. The liability to a really fine crush is more trub, and this often cancels out the apparent efficiency. If your net yield is a couple of bottles less, but your apparent efficiency is 90% instead of 78%, what is your REAL efficiency? I lose enough that my math says it doesn't pay to crush extremely fine.


H.W.

 

[wobdee]

I've been brewing the same 3 styles of beer, Pilsner, Dunkel, Oktoberfest just about exclusively for the last year. OG is in the 1.050-056 range and FG in the 1.012-016 range. I've never seen a beer finish below 1.010 so I don't think the thin taste is from high ferment ability.

I suppose there are lots of different variables on this subject and it could just be my lousy taste buds but my thinking is a less efficient brew has more malt so maybe it has a richer maltier taste than a more efficient one? But then wouldn't crushing finer expose more of that malty goodness?

I'd like to see someone test this and do a blind triangle taste test and see what happens. Same recipe but different amounts of malt due to efficiency like 75% verses 85%.

 

[motobrewer]

I'd be interested in your oktoberfest recipe. and your dunkel. and pilsner....

 

[wobdee]

I'd be interested in your oktoberfest recipe. and your dunkel. and pilsner....

This is pretty much my go to base recipes for these but i do tweak them a bit here and there.

WY 2124, do a single decoction mash, ferment at 50 for 5-6 days, raise to 60 for the same, cold crash and keg. All are 2.5 gal batches.

Ofest is 50/50 Pils malt/Munich malt with touch of caramunich II, 30 IBU Magnum at 60 min

Pilsner is 90% Pils malt, 10% Munich, 40 IBU Magnum at 60 min, 3/4 oz Saaz mash hop.

Dunkel is 90% Dark Munich, 10% Pils, touch of carafa III to get about 18 SRM, 25 IBU Magnum at 60 min.

 

[Owly055]

I've been brewing the same 3 styles of beer, Pilsner, Dunkel, Oktoberfest just about exclusively for the last year. OG is in the 1.050-056 range and FG in the 1.012-016 range. I've never seen a beer finish below 1.010 so I don't think the thin taste is from high ferment ability.

I suppose there are lots of different variables on this subject and it could just be my lousy taste buds but my thinking is a less efficient brew has more malt so maybe it has a richer maltier taste than a more efficient one? But then wouldn't crushing finer expose more of that malty goodness?

I'd like to see someone test this and do a blind triangle taste test and see what happens. Same recipe but different amounts of malt due to efficiency like 75% verses 85%.

I'm a bit of a newbie.... I've only been all grain brewing for about 13 months, and as yet have only 58 brews, so I can't claim a great deal of experience. I will say that in my experience this does not appear to be true. Nor is it logical........ A high mash efficiency just means that more of the starch in your grain is being converted to malt, or more likely you are recovering more of it. I can't see where efficiency changes the process......

RM's suggestion really makes more sense than anybody else's. The solution of course if you want both body and mash efficiency from a fine grist is to go with a very short mash time if this is the case. I've mashed at over 160 with a fine grist (.010 setting). You definitely get body and a reduced fermentability. This really is an issue of fermentability, not of efficiency.

H.W.

 

[wobdee]

Let me put it another way. Say I want to brew a 2.5 gal batch of Pilsner with 100% Pils malt. If I set my mill at .025 for a fine crush and use 4.5lbs I will get a mash efficiency of 87% and an OG of 1.051. If I set my mill at .035 I need to up the grain to 5 lbs to get the same OG which is only 80% mash efficiency according to my Promash software. Both mashed at same temps and FG's seem to ferment down similar with the same yeast but the higher efficient one tastes a bit thinner to me. I thought maybe it was because it has less malt in the grist?

 

[wobdee]

Maybe I should of made the subject about the crush and not efficiency but I kinda think they go hand in hand.

 

[schematix]

What's your water profile look like? Are you treating it at all? I found my beers to be underwhelming and thin until i bumped the chloride and sulfate levels up (i had decent starting water).

 

[wobdee]

What's your water profile look like? Are you treating it at all? I found my beers to be underwhelming and thin until i bumped the chloride and sulfate levels up (i had decent starting water).

I have well water with a softener hooked up. Its pretty soft with very little minerals. I follow Brewers Friend water calculator and for lagers i use calcium chloride and a bit of lactic acid to get the PH down to 5.4. No gypsum unless I make a hoppy ale.

 

[schematix]

Might be worth experimenting adding additional calcium chloride or gypsum right to your glass and see if that helps...

 

[wobdee]

Might be worth experimenting adding additional calcium chloride or gypsum right to your glass and see if that helps...

You might be on to something. Doesn't barley malt naturally add minerals like magnesium and calcium to the wort? I don't know how much but maybe the extra malt in a less efficient mash adds more mouth feel?

 

[schematix]

I have never done BIAB myself, but I have heard from some that do that their beers end up a lot maltier and richer than standard sparged beers. I know they get lower efficiently and make it up with more grain. I would bet there are other flavor components in the grain that aren't getting diluted as much either.

 

[Owly055]

Let me put it another way. Say I want to brew a 2.5 gal batch of Pilsner with 100% Pils malt. If I set my mill at .025 for a fine crush and use 4.5lbs I will get a mash efficiency of 87% and an OG of 1.051. If I set my mill at .035 I need to up the grain to 5 lbs to get the same OG which is only 80% mash efficiency according to my Promash software. Both mashed at same temps and FG's seem to ferment down similar with the same yeast but the higher efficient one tastes a bit thinner to me. I thought maybe it was because it has less malt in the grist?

In the final analysis all that matters is getting the result you want......... I would be interested in a scientific explanation.......... this one's new to me. I rarely brew the same thing twice in a row, but my grain bills tend to be pretty similar. My experience is that a higher OG seems always to result in a richer beer, even if they attenuate the same.

H.W.