Does Crazy equipment = home brew slow down?

[GilaMinumBeer]

Ugh, please don't put words in my mouth. I never said a mill or chiller is an unnecessary piece of crap.

"No chiller, no aeration, no stirplate -- that's all unnecessary expensive crap. I do have a mill but that was a gift. The blender worked just fine for "milling" the grains before that."

 

[dmtaylor]

"No chiller, no aeration, no stirplate -- that's all unnecessary expensive crap. I do have a mill but that was a gift. The blender worked just fine for "milling" the grains before that."

Taken out of context like a line-item veto. Original quote actually began with this statement:

As for me, I'll never buy any of it as I am happy as a clam...

Key words: "As for me".

It so happens that I am a small batch brewer of 1.7-2 gallons average. If I were brewing 5 or 6 or 10 gallons, of course a chiller and a mill become more important. Necessary? No. Crap? No. For a small batch? Not quite so important. Does anybody even care what the f**k we're going on and on about here anyway? Hell no. So let it go. Let it go.

 

[Homercidal]

Yes, let's get away from this line of discussion.

I think the crux of the topic posted originally was whether or not these fancy new brewing systems are an indication that the hobby has plateaued and they are invented as a way of making money from hobbyists beyond the usual avenues.

I think yes in some situations, but I think it's more likely to be homebrewers who have an idea and decide to develop it and market it, than by serious design companies who think they have a major breakthrough. Many homebrewers are engineering types, so it's only natural that some of them will want to tinker with the process and develop new equipment.

 

[YeastMode]

Hooray for tangential internet forum debates!

I have moved towards simplicity and away from complications, which is strange for me because in just bout all of my other hobbies, I am usually a sucker for new and "improved" things. I don't know if I am the target person for some of these new items. But the concept of developing new equipment or products is as old as time and found across all industries. Is a 2014 Honda Civic the functional equivalent of a 2015? Probably. but that does not stop Honda from selling it as new and improved, and making you feel as if you are missing out. New product equals new money from both people entering the hobby and those looking to "upgrade".

With beer, for me, its different. I believe that my involvement in the process can do more harm than good, so I try to do as little as possible to stop the natural process. I have found that my beers are way more consistent now. If something comes out that I find useful, like the stainless buckets I got, then I can see the improvement. But I do not need a carbing pump or a pill floating in my beer to tell me whats going on.

 

[mongoose33]

Yes, let's get away from this line of discussion.

I think the crux of the topic posted originally was whether or not these fancy new brewing systems are an indication that the hobby has plateaued and they are invented as a way of making money from hobbyists beyond the usual avenues.

I think yes in some situations, but I think it's more likely to be homebrewers who have an idea and decide to develop it and market it, than by serious design companies who think they have a major breakthrough. Many homebrewers are engineering types, so it's only natural that some of them will want to tinker with the process and develop new equipment.

All fields mature over time as knowledge becomes more certain, and processes are refined. It's normal and natural for new inventions to come on-scene, some of which work, some of which....don't so much.

I'd say we're a ways from being a mature hobby, but we're close to the end than the beginning. Compare to, say, personal computers--what's been new there since the development of the touchpad and bluetooth? Not a whole lot.

Same with automobiles. Pretty mature industry with improvements coming on the margins (self-opening tailgate? Bluetooth connection to phone?). Improvements today are of degree, not revolution.

Home brewing is, to my mind, fairly mature. How else could I have gone from an absolute newbie in early December to a guy who can brew pretty good all-grain beer? I have had far fewer blind alleys to stumble down and recover from than people 15 and 20 years ago. While the learning curve has been fairly steep, it's not insurmountable.

But home brewing is not completely mature. There are many improvements coming yet, from keg cleaning to chilling. But the hard work is done for the most part.

Still, there's room for improvement. No need for secondary? Using dry yeast effectively? Hopping in different fashions? There's more to come.

IMO.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Same with automobiles. Pretty mature industry with improvements coming on the margins (self-opening tailgate? Bluetooth connection to phone?). Improvements today are of degree, not revolution.

I get what you are saying but, self driving Uber Taxis are more of a revolution than a degree of separation.

I think brewing is still fairly young but, has reached a saturation point to where either some of the ingredients need to improve or the equipment has to appeal to more of the masses before it will further it's way into "mainstream".

 

[xCSx]

I know more people into homebrew now than ever.
Lots of new stores popping up as well.

Lots of new breweries.
Will you get rich selling this stuff? No, but there is a market.

Now cameras are an expensive hobby!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Now cameras are an expensive hobby!

Still cheaper than Golf or fishing with a boat.

 

[Photopilot]

I think it's slowing down. Craft beer is everywhere. Less need for homebrewing. But then there's the DIY types that will continue to brew, even if a brewery opens up next door. So it's not going away.

Just my opinion, but I think the opposite may occur. Craft beer might stimulate people's interest in the art of beer. People that thought that drinking Sam Adams or Heineken made them a classy drinker will discover there is more to enjoy out there and may become interested in home brewing.

The only proof I can find is homebrewing is huge in San Diego and there is no shortage or local breweries locally. I think the equipment sales may flatline because of the great amount of equipment out there being recycled or passed down as people move up or out of the hobby.

I would be interested in seeing the numbers involved in homebrewing just in terms of the amount of Grains or extract sold to homebrewers over the years.

 

[mongoose33]

I get what you are saying but, self driving Uber Taxis are more of a revolution than a degree of separation.

I think brewing is still fairly young but, has reached a saturation point to where either some of the ingredients need to improve or the equipment has to appeal to more of the masses before it will further it's way into "mainstream".

Since I started doing this, I've reflected on what it takes to make the leap into home brewing--and what kinds of things would be necessary for brewing to have wider appeal. Upon that reflection, I've concluded that for most people there's significant "risk" involved.

IMO, here are issues that must be resolved in no particular order for brewing to become more mainstream:

1. Uncertain outcome, or less than desirable outcome.
2. Cost
3. Time to brew
4. Time to wait for beer to ferment and condition
5. Places to store equipment
6. Can be perceived as complicated
7. Learning curve
8. New jargon (mash tun, lauter, sparge, rack, etc.) that doesn't make sense
9. Fear of failure

I'm sure that there are others that could be added. The ones that were the most concerning for me when I started were the uncertain outcomes, did I want to invest in something I might end up not liking, and whether I had the time to master the complications.

And then there was, for me, this problem: when I get interested in something, I really--REALLY--get interested in it. I want to plumb the depths of all the mysteries, be able to develop a level of mastery with it that will leave me with the feeling that I truly understand it.

Someday I may learn to play bridge, but it scares me--not because I don't think i can learn it, but because it will probably consume me. Brewing, like all my other hobbies that have come and then lost luster, has dominated 90 percent of my learning and recreational time. I've read probably 10 books on brewing, actively comb the web for info (including on HBT), bought Beersmith, tried others' recipes--I'm pretty invested in this.

That last item above--fear of failure--I believe is the biggest impediment to many people. They don't want others to see their failure, they're afraid they'll look dumb, they're too afraid of being unsuccessful.

That doesn't apply to HBT posters by definition, but note how many people here hold up their mistakes and failures for inspection by others, asking for help or simply offering it up as a cautionary tale. I, personally, want to master this thing called brewing so I am more than willing to ask for help because for me the goal is to master it, rather than the goal being preserving my self image (whatever it is).

I don't think most people are cut out for home brewing. It has nothing to do with social class or education or age, though available resources of money and time have something to do with it. Rather, it's simply a willingness to fail, and to learn, and not see failure or a need to learn as a personal flaw.

I think homebrewing will continue to attract people as time and resources permit, but I also believe the majority of the population will never be candidates for home brewing. I know a guy, friend of mine, who I don't think can ever do this. Each time I run across something new I automatically assume I can learn it--it'll take some trial and error, perhaps, but I believe I *will* learn it. My friend doesn't have that confidence to try something new with uncertain outcomes or failures on the way to success.

Anyway, I've waxed too philosophical.

 

[augiedoggy]

I get what you are saying but, self driving Uber Taxis are more of a revolution than a degree of separation.

I think brewing is still fairly young but, has reached a saturation point to where either some of the ingredients need to improve or the equipment has to appeal to more of the masses before it will further it's way into "mainstream".

I was thinking the same thing about the self driving Tesla and Google cars both in testing..

For me the brewing hobby is something I focus more on during the fall-spring months since I brew indoors and its hot in my brew room during the summer. Plus I have other outdoor hobbies to focus on like restoring my car and gardening. That's why I'm not here much in the summer months as well. I've noticed brewing seems to be one of those hobbies people get in and out of sometimes multiple times depending on their life situation. I don't think it's some much that it's on the decline myself.

 

[autoferret]

Now cameras are an expensive hobby!

Still cheaper than Golf or fishing with a boat.

I work in the film industry... every time i turn around its another thousand for some new thingumabob....

Boat does stand for: Break Out Another Thousand

And i still play on my high school golf clubs...

I find that i like to DIY my home brew stuff. But I do like seeing all the new gadgets and ideas to make the hobby easier.

 

[ericbw]

What shocks me is that there are people who will spend upwards of $50 for a single entree at a restaurant, the value of which is absolutely gone within 3 hours. Unbelievable.

A friend told me recently that he always orders the best/most expensive thing on the menu. He says if you're going to go out to a nice restaurant, you should enjoy it as much as possible!

I'll spend money on food that I would never spend on clothing.

 

[augiedoggy]

A friend told me recently that he always orders the best/most expensive thing on the menu. He says if you're going to go out to a nice restaurant, you should enjoy it as much as possible!

I'll spend money on food that I would never spend on clothing.

While that may work for you on your income and others with the disposable money.

But for many, what good is enjoying your overpriced entree if your getting ulcers from worrying about maintaining and paying for your extravagant lifestyle? I myself feel there are too many people living beyond their means now with the irresponsible attitude toward managing their long-term financial needs.. their attitude is "Hey everyone else is doing it so.."

For many it comes down to practical compromises with the occasional splurge.

 

[ericbw]

While that may work for you on your income and others with the disposable money.



But for many, what good is enjoying your overpriced entree if your getting ulcers from worrying about maintaining and paying for your extravagant lifestyle? I myself feel there are too many people living beyond their means now with the irresponsible attitude toward managing their long-term financial needs.. their attitude is "Hey everyone else is doing it so.."



For many it comes down to practical compromises with the occasional splurge.

Or, if you can't afford the best thing at that restaurant, pick a different one. It's not about spending a lot of money, because you could be at a diner. The best there is cheaper than other places' cheap.

Or it could be the occasional splurge that I'm talking about.

Referring to an "overpriced entree" seems like you're not a fan of restaurants. (Because what restaurant or entree are we talking about? It's an imaginary one.)

Living beyond your means is bad. But living is important.

 

[dirtybear7]

How dare anyone spend their money the way they want. Everyone has to do everything they way I want or they're bad or at least I'm better.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

While that may work for you on your income and others with the disposable money.

But for many, what good is enjoying your overpriced entree if your getting ulcers from worrying about maintaining and paying for your extravagant lifestyle? I myself feel there are too many people living beyond their means now with the irresponsible attitude toward managing their long-term financial needs.. their attitude is "Hey everyone else is doing it so.."

For many it comes down to practical compromises with the occasional splurge.

Economics 101 .... Supply and demand translates to .. Wealth is relative, the less everyone else has, the more my wealth is worth So I love it when people buy what they don't need, and live beyond their means. That foreclosed house, and there future inability to drive demand means I pay less for what I don't need

 

[augiedoggy]

Or, if you can't afford the best thing at that restaurant, pick a different one. It's not about spending a lot of money, because you could be at a diner. The best there is cheaper than other places' cheap.

Or it could be the occasional splurge that I'm talking about.

Referring to an "overpriced entree" seems like you're not a fan of restaurants. (Because what restaurant or entree are we talking about? It's an imaginary one.)

Living beyond your means is bad. But living is important.

here we go off topic again.
Ive eaten at expensive restaurants before and yes from time to time I will continue to do so if I have the disposable income.. an overpriced entree is an overpriced entree because the price doesn't usually relate much to the cost of the actual ingredients of the food but rather the décor of the dining room and the wages of the cook combined with the ambition of the owner to charge as much as he can.
I also agree people can spend their money shower they want.. someone posted their opinion on why they choose the most expensive thing on the menu and I posted why I don't share their philosophy.. I eat what I'm in the mood to eat .. I don't let the price tell me what's good or poor... just as weigh the benefits of the homebrew equipment I buy.. I don't shop by brand name and believe it's the best simply based on price otherwise I'd be taken for a fool in Many cases.

 

[augiedoggy]

I totally agree that everyone choices are relative but some choices are still more practical than others.. this is why chevy sells cars from the chevy spark all the way up to a corvette... but someone who does their homework would know before making a decision what their buying.. like for example that that chevy spark is really a rebranded Korean made Deawoo and not a "chevy" at all.. there's a fool for every overpriced gimmick sold and we've all bought stuff only to realize we've been had.

 

[ericbw]

You seem to be focused on things being overpriced. When it comes to an entree in a nice restaurant, it does cost more than the cost of the ingredients and the wages to prepare and serve it. You're paying for the experience of sitting in a nice place, the decor, being treated well by the staff, etc.

Obviously, you can have a great experience at a low end Mexican restaurant that costs a lot less. But in that case, you might go for the $12 dish instead of the $9 dish. We're talking about a difference of $4 (plus an additional 80 cents in the tip).

In this friend's case (and in mine), it's not likely a steakhouse that sells Wagyu beef for $10 an ounce. But even in a fancy steakhouse, where the difference might be $10 between a sirloin steak and a ribeye, if you're there - get what's good, not what's cheap. Or at the grocery store, if you don't get steak every week, when you do, it makes sense to get the best (in your opinion) that you can afford.

The advice and rationale is not "go to the most expensive restaurant because it's better." The rationale is to take full advantage of the place where you are and get the best you can because you'll enjoy it more.

Yes, we have derailed the thread. The mods will kill it soon.

 

[Vandulus]

Honestly it all comes down to your preferences and how much money you have/want to spend on homebrewing. I first took up homebrewing in 1996 when there wasn't much beyond basic equipment. I made some decent batches and some really horrible ones. Much of this was due to lack of education on brewing - the only book I had was Charlie's Complete Joy of Homebrewing. I dropped out due to time constraints with 2 young kids and other interests.

Fast forward (or back?) to 2014 where I was in a completely different place in my life. I decided to get back into homebrewing and the first thing I did was thoroughly educate myself on homebrewing. I've built a homebrewing library of 20-ish books and that certainly has helped my brewing - plus reading HBT. I tried the DYI route including a stir plate that ended up taking me 3 hours and threw the stir bar way too much. While DYI is fun, I've never been happy with the results of my work or the time/money spent for the result.

My kids are teenagers now (15 and 17), but time is still at a premium especially with their activities. Fortunately I have more disposable income these days and it makes more sense to me to spend a little extra and buy good equipment that will last for years.

When I first got back in I saw all of the 3 vessel, automated systems and dreamed of owning one some day. Between the cost and the complexity of those setups, I decided that it wasn't for me. Instead I'm doing BIAB (grain is cheap) and landed somewhere between the two extremes brew system-wise. In the past year I've bought:
- Camlock fittings anda pump for recirculation and whirl-pooling with my immersion chiller
- Tilt (Brewometer) for remotely monitoring SG and temp
- SS Brew Master Buckets for fermentation
- Upgraded SS kettle with tri-clad bottom and ports
- Kegerator and Inkbird for fermentation temperature control
- High quality bench capper
- Barley crucher grain mill

While none of this was cheap, it was well worth it as I was making better quality beer for less time and effort. While my brew buddies tease that I've become an "equipment whore", the purchases have increased my enjoyment of the hobby. I've now been able focus more on the ingredients and process which satisfies my engineering/scientific itch too.

 

[passedpawn]

Yes, we have derailed the thread. The mods will kill it soon.

At least we're not still on that "fox and the sour grapes" thing. Gawd.

 

[ericbw]

At least we're not still on that "fox and the sour grapes" thing. Gawd.

I hate sours. I know they are all the rage, but come on!

 

[ericbw]

I think the original question wasn't so much about *better* equipment, but about the kind of stuff that is really a departure from the normal homebrew stuff. Like everyone needs a kettle, but a machine where you put the ingredients in and it makes beer. A couple weeks later, it's ready to drink from a tap on the machine. This unit sits on your kitchen counter and takes up no more space that a blender, but holds a full 5 gallons.

The question was that if those gadgets are becoming popular, does that mean that people are buying less buckets and carboys, so these companies come up with something to sell. And then does that mean that the market is peaked with not as many new brewers starting up. Maybe so.