DME mishap or not?

[Aggie10]

I'm an extract brewer, and have always used LME. I'm time-limited so have developed a super fast brewing process that includes heating 5 L water and any sugar and any steeping grains, bringing water up to 75C, remove any steeping grains at 25 min, bring to boil, flameout, hopstand 25 mins (hop amount adjusted to compensate for less bittering compared to early boil additions) which means a temp range for me of 95 to 70 C (I live at altitude, boil occurs at 95 C), remove hop bag, add LME, add wort to campden treated water in carboy, then pitch dry yeast (wort temp is always at proper temp with my technique).

I can produce excellent ales this way, but wanted to dabble in the wheat beer world so I got some Briess Bavarian Wheat DME and made a saison and a hefeweizen yesterday. Problem is that adding the DME after flameout at 75 C I got horrible clumping (chunks up to 2" dia) after the first 2 lbs of DME was added to the 5 L of water. So much so that I adjusted my two recipes down in DME amounts and reduced overall volume to partially compensate. My two 23 L 5% abv beers became 20 L 4% abv beers. But to even get to this volume and abv I added about 1.5 lbs of DME to tap water and poured into each carboy without any sanitation.

12 hours later, the hefe is bubbling away and a bit of krausen is forming on the saison, so it seems ok, but what about future infection risk? And how should I use DME in future considering I don't want to add to boil, but as a late malt addition post flameout (my understanding the 75C wort temperature will pasteurize it just fine)?

 

[HB_ATL73]

Reasons for late additions? Color or hop utilization or both? My 2 cents is to just add it with say 2 min before the boil is done and use the vigorous boil to help dissolve the DME. Hop utilization or color wont be affected and you save yourself the trouble of mixing. Also don't worry about infection if you sanitized well and it wasn't old DME you should be fine. Ive made multiple extract batches without even pasteurizing without any issue- of course its a bigger risk of infection, though.

 

[Aggie10]

My reasons for late additions vs boil are:
1. Maintain lightest color possible.
2. As I live at altitude my boil threshold is 95 C. The most recent empirical research I've read is that hop utilization at 95 C is ~75% of that at 100 C (sea level boil threshold), and that hop utilization at 70 C is ~65% of that at 100 C. So, when I add all hops at my flameout temp (95 C) and take them out 25 min later when my temperatures are (75-70 C), I'm really not losing much in my hop utilization potential seeing that I'm at altitude. And I generally prefer the "smooth bitterness" that I get this way.
3. Time. By bringing water to a boil, then doing the hopstand for the hop effects I prefer, then adding extract, I do not have to spend any time with boil additions. Heat on to yeast pitch is less than 1 hr for my usual LME ales.

 

[kh54s10]

The amounts that are needed. LME to DME for the same resulting gravity will be different. But DME will clump. Pour it in slowly and try to break apart the clumps. I do half at the beginning of the boil and the rest with a little time left in the boil. The roiling helps stir up the DME.

Both are a PITA, I prefer DME a little. Plus I keep some on hand for starters and the rare adjustment. LME doesn't last long.

 

[Aggie10]

Thanks for replies. So not pasteurizing DME is unlikely to be a best practice, but just how bad or risky is it?

(I am generally thorough with cleaning and sanitizing equipment, but have done some horrendous things (like siphoning 5 gal of completed beer into bottles using a hose used 3 weeks prior that I had forgotten to clean) and didn't have any issues.)

 

[day_trippr]

It only takes a couple of minutes at temperatures as low as 135°F to achieve pasteurization...

Cheers!

 

[HB_ATL73]

Not trying to be critical to your approach at all. Everyone has their own way of brewing and there's nothing wrong with that.

Maintain lightest color possible.

My suggestion of boiling only for the amount of time to dissolve (1 min or so) will have no impact on color. 15 min addition? yeah maybe.

As I live at altitude my boil threshold is 95 C. The most recent empirical research I've read is that hop utilization at 95 C is ~75% of that at 100 C (sea level boil threshold), and that hop utilization at 70 C is ~65% of that at 100 C. So, when I add all hops at my flameout temp (95 C) and take them out 25 min later when my temperatures are (75-70 C),

Hop Utilization is efficiency of the isomerization of the alpha acids. At the higher end of the whirlpool you are getting some isomerization but nearing the 70C-80C you are getting minimal to no isomerization and contribution of hop flavor/aroma what you are getting from the hops. Are you using a calculator or program like Brewsmith to see what your IBUs are from just a whirlpool?
Yes, adding the DME or LME in the boil will lose you some efficiency in the initial stages of the whirpool but those losses would be very minimal and not enough IBU to perceptibly different in taste. I don't know the exact amount based on a hypothetical recipe you could make up for that amount with like 1/8 of an ounce of extra hops.

 

[Aggie10]

Thanks HB, I didn't think you were being anything but helpful. Just elaborating on method as the question was asked.

Have you seen this research on temperature and alpha acid concentration?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw1rwUxX_8GJ6Z-s-FtrNHTC

Hamilton's work matches my experience with my methods, as I definitely get enough sharp bitterness as well as a full smooth complexity. And there other key compounds in hops that may be best utilized at lower than boil temperatures, it's a research area that is rapidly evolving. Of course hop variety and amount are important factors too.

But, I am relieved that my hasty DME into tap water additions may not be fatal to these wheat-based brews!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Have you seen this research on temperature and alpha acid concentration?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw1rwUxX_8GJ6Z-s-FtrNHTC

Hamilton's work matches my experience with my methods, as I definitely get enough sharp bitterness as well as a full smooth complexity.

Basic Brewing Radio, Nov 1, 2018.

 

[davidabcd]

+1 on vigorously boiling the DME until it melts. I use 8 pounds of it sometimes and it's just a waiting game to get it to melt. More liquid helps.

 

[HB_ATL73]

I will have to listen to the podcast. That is interesting research
Looks like he found similar IBU data points for 70 through 90 C with time being the important variable in IBU contribution

That goes against what ive always read!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Problem is that adding the DME after flameout at 75 C I got horrible clumping (chunks up to 2" dia) after the first 2 lbs of DME was added to the 5 L of water.

I use a wire whisk (specifically an electric wire whisk) when adding DME.

Maintain lightest color possible.

Can we start with this

If you look at the spec sheets for the Briess DME, you'll see that for a fixed volume, the color goes up with gravity. For example, for their Pale Ale and Golden Light extracts, the color in °L is 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 for 1.020, 1.030, 1.040, 1.050, and 1.060 respectively.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=29885.msg392903#msg392903

as a model for determining "lightest color possible"?

If so, then my experience with "Hop Sampler" and "no-boil (hop steep, pasteurized extract)" approaches is that the above model provides a good estimate of color with "pilsen", "golden light", and "amber" DME.

For my process, I add all the extract with a wire whisk at the start (often just before 'flame-on'), bring the wort to a soft boil (or hop steep temperature), remove the heat, add the hops, wait 20 to 40 minutes, then finish chilling. The color comes out as estimated, which is what I'm expecting.

 

[kevin58]

A Brulosophy podcast recently covered the use of DME vs LME. You might wan to give that a listen.

 

[Aggie10]

Re Basic Brewing podcast...Hamilton discusses a few other related issues. Well worth a listen.

And I found that what his research findings matched my experience and that of others that report on their experiments on their websites.

Another sacrilege that I purposely commit is to add hops to water alone (sometimes with sugar only), as recent research indicates that lower gravity and higher pH improves hop utilization. No grassy flavors or other ill effects in my experience.

Caveat to all this is I am NOT a technical brewer. I enjoy understanding the science and then applying it to create the shortest, easiest brewing process that results in good beer, at least according to me and simple friends.

 

[Aggie10]

So to conclude, and get back to topic, adding DME without pasteurization is not best practice but if not too old is unlikely to cause an infection.

And add at boil to break down clumps. (Although I now see Briess recommends adding to warm 80-100 F water to minimize clumping, then heating to sanitize.) Hmmm...

 

[Aggie10]

.

 

[HB_ATL73]

And add at boil to break down clumps. (Although I now see Briess recommends adding to warm 80-100 F water to minimize clumping, then heating to sanitize.) Hmmm...[/QUOTE]

Yeah believe it or not colder temp water it dissolves better. So with your method you could use colder water and mix in then dump all of that into fermenter

 

[Aggie10]

Thinking now of mixing the 1.5 lb of DME per brew that I did not originally add due to clumping, following Briess recommendation of 100-120F water, then bringing to boil, cool to 70F, then top up both fermenters.

I'm at day 2 of fermentation, and if I use 4 L of water this should bring my recipes up to the intended volume and OG.

Thoughts?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

following Briess recommendation of 100-120F water

I haven't tried this specific technique from Briess. When I've followed other recommendations from their product information, I get good results.

Thoughts?

Personally, I find an electric wire whisk works well regardless of water/wort temperature.

 

[Aggie10]

Just slow poured 3 lb of DME into 4L of 110F water (Briess recommendation) while constantly stirring with a whisk (forum suggestion)...worked great, quick and zero clumps.

Thanks all.