DIY glycol chilled plastic conical fermenters

[chapusin]

I bought the plastic ones and they look awesome. A bit expensive at 35 a set since I have 3 fermenters, so I need 6 sets. Now I need to wait for stainless brewing to make the coils but they're taking way too long so I think I'm going to cancel the order and give ny brew supply a chance.

 

[TrickyDick]

So I have a source for 304SS hydraulic ISO 7241-b quick disconnects and trying to see who is interested. $30 per set (so would be $60 per coil/tank since you'd need two sets to operate one coil). Just trying to get a headcount on how many sets there is interest for. Only firm commit to buy please. Can only get this pricing if there is enough interest.

 

[chapusin]

You guys think I can use this one and control it with an stc-1000 120v?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-Brass-E...834?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item463c3c4a32

or this one is cheaper http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-inch-So...441?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2a6b9f19

 

[chapusin]

Got my chillers! NY Brew supply rocks!

http://i.imgur.com/37ejlpu.jpg

 

[WPStrassburg]

you could always add a corrosion inhibitor to the water to prevent the steel qd's from giving you issues. Below is one google found quickiest for me and would treat 200 gallons of water, so it may be a cheaper solution to buy a quart of something similar and use the cheaper steel qd's thank going with stainless connectors.

http://www.chemworld.com/Food-Grade...sA6VBg2Y5jzi9-qTi9ZY0XEA0gtXU9iEQtxoCagvw_wcB

Or similar to the connectors linked at US plastics Colder Products have a tone of different style connectors both metallic and plastic.
http://www.cpcworldwide.com/Products/GeneralPurpose.aspx

 

[TrickyDick]

you could always add a corrosion inhibitor to the water to prevent the steel qd's from giving you issues. Below is one google found quickiest for me and would treat 200 gallons of water, so it may be a cheaper solution to buy a quart of something similar and use the cheaper steel qd's thank going with stainless connectors.

http://www.chemworld.com/Food-Grade...sA6VBg2Y5jzi9-qTi9ZY0XEA0gtXU9iEQtxoCagvw_wcB

Or similar to the connectors linked at US plastics Colder Products have a tone of different style connectors both metallic and plastic.
http://www.cpcworldwide.com/Products/GeneralPurpose.aspx

And yet another idea is to use the pre-diluted glycol with corrosion inhibitors already added.

 

[chapusin]

Started testing this with water, good thing I did. I got a leak somewhere, started with 38 gallons of wort, ended with 52! Good news is the beer got infected and tastes awesome, it's now a berliner weizen.

 

[njenabnit]

I found a way to retrieve the plasticconical site but it doesn't have any pictures. Can someone email the files to me at [email protected]

Thanks guys

Not sure if you found this or not, but I went searching and found the link here:
http://scottstots.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Conical.zip

Oh, and this isn't my site or anything. It is just the link I found on dude3516's profile.

 

[packet]

Hey all. OP here.

I'm amazed this thread is still going. Someone had PM'd me a while ago looking for the original images from the website, and I just found what I think is most of them on my old laptop. Here's a zip of them:

http://www.calstartups.com/PlasticConical.zip

Good news though. We're going to be looking for a house in the next couple months (yay Bay Area prices), and I'll be able to get all my brewing stuff out of storage. So, I can setup version 2 of the fermenters.

 

[angrybits]

Got my chillers! NY Brew supply rocks!

http://i.imgur.com/37ejlpu.jpg

Are those custom? I can't find them on the website.

 

[njenabnit]

Hey all. OP here.

I'm amazed this thread is still going. Someone had PM'd me a while ago looking for the original images from the website, and I just found what I think is most of them on my old laptop. Here's a zip of them:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9tktYnTxpuRQXl4dTUwSi1TYU0

Good news though. We're going to be looking for a house in the next couple months (yay Bay Area prices), and I'll be able to get all my brewing stuff out of storage. So, I can setup version 2 of the fermenters.

Thanks Packet! I was prompted to request access on your link (which i did).

 

[packet]

Thanks Packet! I was prompted to request access on your link (which i did).

Just gave you access. Looks like google doesn't want to let me share it with the world.

Here's another link that will work:

http://www.calstartups.com/PlasticConical.zip

 

[TrickyDick]

Welcome back.

Interested to hear how your version 2 is coming along.

I'm planning to make he leap to Stainless conicals and think I have a solution for direct retrofit, which solves my problem of air-tightness, hydrostatic pressure lock when removing the hydraulic QD when coolant is cold, and establishes true sanitary environment (no threads).

TD

 

[packet]

Still in the planning stages for now. After the first version, I want something that doesn't require disconnects to empty the conical, is 100% air tight, and preferably doesn't have the glycol chiller directly touching the wort.

Looking in to jacketed 50L stainless conicals. If those don't work out, something like this may work:
http://www.ssbrewtech.com/collections/fermenters/products/chronical-14-gallon-fermenter

More than anything, I want to get rid of the BCS though. it worked, but if it lost power, all bets were off. Data logging was a bit of an issue as it could only hold a few data points in memory at any given point in time.

So, I'm thinking about going with a raspberry pi for the controller, and custom building the software I need. Ideally, I'd have a touch screen and a phone app to control the unit. I'd also like the ability to store fermentation profiles. So, I can just click on pilsner and it's good to go. No need to manually enter timings anymore.

 

[TrickyDick]

Did you upgrade the BCS to latest V 4.0 firmware?
I don't know about the more extended data logging. For lagering, I agree that you might more more ability to store, or at least offload from the BCS. Does the 462 have more internal memory for this than the 460? I'm planning to stick with the BCS. I have a backup generator at my home, and could connect a lantern battery or an inexpensive UPS to supply power to the BCS if there was power loss, as well as get an alert sent if there is power loss. Granted, if the BCS called for a pump or other high drain AC load during the minute between the generator coming and and the power going off, it would ruin it.

That said, I like your plan with the rPi. I have been trying to tinker with an RPi + arduino Uno to operate a dry cure chamber. It's a lot to learn, and my high school electronics classes are rather rusty. I bought a couple Udemy courses to learn how to get it all setup and running, but so far have no time for that, let alone brewing (or drinking) home brew.

Right now the chilled conical upgrade project, while working as-is, is on hold until I finish the eBrewery setup. Then I'll tackle the conical conversion. Truth be told the FTSS would be well suited to a direct swap but the cart would need revisions due to dimension differences. The Blichmann. Conicals are nearly perfect fit however, but require a few hole punches in the lids. You can also buy the TFSS coils, and their through the lid design would be easier to buy than to try to adapt existing coils it seems. Great fermentation and now Blichmann sells replacement parts direct, and a previous post here links to a supply site selling ssbrewtech components for the FTSS, assuming you have a Blichmann conical to convert that is. Lifting a full conical into and out of a temp controlled freezer is not much fun.

TD

 

[packet]

I haven't used the BCS in a few years as it's in storage at the moment with all of my car and electric brewery stuff.

The BCS works, it's just primarily made for automating brewing controls, not fermentation. So, it's not that flexible for what I'd like it to do. I shouldn't need a UPS for it, I should really just be able to save the data somewhere in the cloud and do any analysis I want there.

I looked at the FTSS, and it may be an option as long as I don't end up using the controller that comes with it. I saw blichmann's conical and it looked decent, but didn't have a stock cooling option.

I've been looking at some suppliers out of china that have some 50L conicals that are jacketed with glycol connections, which would be the ideal solution. Much easier for sanitation long term, and no need to deal with the coils through the lid. They look to be a bit more expensive than the other options, but may be worth it. Something to look in to.

 

[jddevinn]

I've been working on a similar setup using the ssbrew conicals mentioned earlier. However, I did not purchase there cooling package opting instead to make my own. (you "can't" purchase the coils without the rest of the setup and the flat lid is not pressure rated, although ssbrew did sell me insulated jackets separately)

I haven't used the BCS in a few years as it's in storage at the moment with all of my car and electric brewery stuff.

The BCS works, it's just primarily made for automating brewing controls, not fermentation. So, it's not that flexible for what I'd like it to do. I shouldn't need a UPS for it, I should really just be able to save the data somewhere in the cloud and do any analysis I want there.

the 4.0 BCS software now has a "Run on startup" option for processes that eliminates the power failure issues.

There are also some additional data logging options such as what is discussed here http://forum.embeddedcc.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=257&start=10.

I currently have an "Electric Brewery" style brew setup and intend on eventually converting the hot side equipment to run of the BCS in addition to the fermenters by running some low voltage network cabling, adding a control board so that i can operate manually or with the BCS. Setting the valves for the (3) conicals and the glycol reservoir to temperature controlled hysteresis still leaves (2) remaining temperature outputs that can be used as PIDs for brewing. Setting up a process with switching states for the heating elements is not that difficult.


Excuse the "prototyping" mess and dog in the photos haha.

 

[TrickyDick]

^^ actually you CAN apparently purchase just the coils and other individual parts. Another member had posted a link to the website that is selling these parts in this very thread perhaps, or another thread maybe dedicated to the FTSS. I'd post a link, but I'm using my iPad and I don't think I will pass my skill check roll if I tried to.

TD

 

[packet]

Glad to see they implemented something to fix the power issue. I had spoken to the developer about it a few years ago and they had mentioned it was in the works.

I have the same system as designed on the electric brewery. There are a couple things I'm going to change about it (I have issues with the pumps, and I want to do hard lines), but over all it works really well for me. At some point in the future, I'll probably make some changes to the controller, but the fermenters are my main issue.

I want to get back in to entering competitions, and want to get as close to a repeatable brew as possible and the majority of my variables are in the fermentation. So, that's where I'm spending my time. I'm 80% happy with the BCS, but think I can eke out some fairly significant improvements by building a new controller.

In any case, it's a hobby. I'll post updates and diagrams if/when stuff starts happening. I got an email that my raspberry pi shipped along with the temp probes. So, I should be able to start coding some of that relatively soon.

 

[packet]

^^ actually you CAN apparently purchase just the coils and other individual parts. Another member had posted a link to the website that is selling these parts in this very thread perhaps, or another thread maybe dedicated to the FTSS. I'd post a link, but I'm using my iPad and I don't think I will pass my skill check roll if I tried to.

TD

Good to know. All I'd need is the coils, lid, and jacket. I don't really have any use for their controller.

 

[TrickyDick]

Agreed.

By the way, what are the issues you are having with the pumps on your electric brewery setup? I am in the midst of going electric and moving indoors. Have paid for most of the new components incl pumps, and had planned to use silicone tubing as I had before on my propane system.

 

[packet]

I've had starvation issues with one of the pumps, and it always makes the brew day a giant pain in the ass. Especially when you're dealing with boiling wort.

Was going to bite the bullet and get a self priming pump so I won't have to deal with air bubbles anymore. They don't pump as quickly, but shouldn't be an issue given that I never run that pump anywhere near full throttle anyways.

 

[ejluttmann]

I have issues with air bubbles when pumping hot wort, so in my pump setup I simply have added an extra valve that I use to drain the air bubbles out... Works good for me.

 

[jddevinn]

^^ actually you CAN apparently purchase just the coils and other individual parts. Another member had posted a link to the website that is selling these parts.

TD

Great!!! I'll have to try to find that link. I got (4) insulation sleeves however SSbrew made it sound like they only sold them because I wanted so many and they had extras from using parts to repair systems (which makes it sound to me like they purchase as a kit from elsewhere). I have (1) conical operational but haven't inserted the coils into the others. Getting the fittings onto the domed lid wasn't an easy task. I do believe that the FTSS coil requires use of the flat lid and looses the pressure capability (or maybe just rating) of the vessel. https://ssbrewtech.zendesk.com/hc/e...hould-I-worry-about-vacuum-negative-pressure-

I've had starvation issues with one of the pumps, and it always makes the brew day a giant pain in the ass. Especially when you're dealing with boiling wort.

Was going to bite the bullet and get a self priming pump so I won't have to deal with air bubbles anymore. They don't pump as quickly, but shouldn't be an issue given that I never run that pump anywhere near full throttle anyways.

I had similar issues before switching to the stainless center inlet heads and adding a 1/4" valve to the discharge of each pump to bleed off air and help with priming. I haven't had a pump issue since, even running both pumps in series during whirlpool/cooling with (initially) boiling wort. Usually water/wort doesn't make it any farther than the lip of the valve, ie doesn't spray everywere

Although the system is keeping my test conical (full of fermenting beer) at the correct temp it is consistently reading that it is overshooting my, for now, water bath set temperature. My temperature prob is near the evaporator and I think this may be due to the evaporator mass continuing to cool after the air conditioner is off. Measuring with a thermapen I have temperature stratification all around the water bath. Anyone have a similar issue?? I am thinking about setting the pump to run for a short time after the cooling turns off, but can't think of a way to set that up without changing states in the process.

 

[TrickyDick]

I've never had that issue. I assume you have the pump heads positioned with the inlet side pointing to the floor and the outlet side pointing up? This orientation promotes air evacuating through the outlet. I've also been instructed to never restrict the inlet flow, only the outlet flow. That said, the valves on the kettles can be standard of full port types, with standard ports having a smaller diameter in the ball portion of the valve, which can lead to restricted flow. Some people use 3/4" tubing instead of 1/2" so they can use full 1/2" ID fittings as well. Wish that there was an easy to regulate pump rpm. I guess if none of these solved your issues, then hard plumbing might be your next approach. Are you thinking that the air is being sucked in along the tubing pathway someplace? I imagine that with boiling hot wort its probably the worst scenario, but for me at least, I am rarely pumping boiling hot wort.

TD

 

[jddevinn]

I've never had that issue. I assume you have the pump heads positioned with the inlet side pointing to the floor and the outlet side pointing up? This orientation promotes air evacuating through the outlet. I've also been instructed to never restrict the inlet flow, only the outlet flow. That said, the valves on the kettles can be standard of full port types, with standard ports having a smaller diameter in the ball portion of the valve, which can lead to restricted flow. Some people use 3/4" tubing instead of 1/2" so they can use full 1/2" ID fittings as well. Wish that there was an easy to regulate pump rpm. I guess if none of these solved your issues, then hard plumbing might be your next approach. Are you thinking that the air is being sucked in along the tubing pathway someplace? I imagine that with boiling hot wort its probably the worst scenario, but for me at least, I am rarely pumping boiling hot wort.

TD

Hmm, issue may just be from using water and the low flow rates I am getting now (my temporary hoses are all kinked)

I assume you are asking packet about the pump orientation... but for reference when I "fixed" mine with the new heads both the inlet and discharge are on the same plane as in the below picture. I checked my running BOM and I have full port valves but the 1/2" ID hoses. Air was still binding the pumps after I changed the heads before I added the relief valves.

 

[chapusin]

I took a few pics of my setup for you guys

DO NOT USE THESE

 

[jddevinn]

Although the system is keeping my test conical (full of fermenting beer) at the correct temp it is consistently reading that it is overshooting my, for now, water bath set temperature. My temperature prob is near the evaporator and I think this may be due to the evaporator mass continuing to cool after the air conditioner is off. Measuring with a thermapen I have temperature stratification all around the water bath. Anyone have a similar issue?? I am thinking about setting the pump to run for a short time after the cooling turns off, but can't think of a way to set that up without changing states in the process.

FYI, If anyone else sees this issue......I originally did not know of the limitations on inputs that were temperature controlled. Because of this I had my initial prototype wired up so that the valves could not be used for control (wired to the inputs physically closest) , only the pump and chiller were in the temperature controlled input range. Since I had only (1) conical plugged in I went ahead and wrote what I thought sounded logical for controls (pump and chiller temp controlled for glycol, pump only for conical > ladder logic says only pump on turn on conical valve, both on turn on chiller valve) turns I had an error in the order of the ladder Logic and the pump was not turning on during when the reservoir called for chilling. Opps, rewired so that the valves were temp controlled and pump/chiller were logic controlled and got it fixed.

 

[iijakii]

I've read through a bit of this post and I saw OP mention he couldn't keep the glycol system too much lower than his target ferm point or else when the pump shut-off there'd still be cold glycol in the lines overcooling it. Has anyone else done more testing in regards to this? If I had a double-conical system would it be possible to cold-crash one while fermenting an ale in the other without chilling too far?

 

[augiedoggy]

I've read through a bit of this post and I saw OP mention he couldn't keep the glycol system too much lower than his target ferm point or else when the pump shut-off there'd still be cold glycol in the lines overcooling it. Has anyone else done more testing in regards to this? If I had a double-conical system would it be possible to cold-crash one while fermenting an ale in the other without chilling too far?

I dont have the issue currently but its possible that its because the cooling jacket drains when the pump shuts off.... still I dont see a coil having that much additional cooling effect once the fluid stops moving...
I guess that depends on the size and amount of cooling coil submerged in the beer. as long as they are on different temp controllers I dont see how you would have an issue.

 

[Shockerengr]

I've read through a bit of this post and I saw OP mention he couldn't keep the glycol system too much lower than his target ferm point or else when the pump shut-off there'd still be cold glycol in the lines overcooling it. Has anyone else done more testing in regards to this? If I had a double-conical system would it be possible to cold-crash one while fermenting an ale in the other without chilling too far?

it depends on the ratio of volume of glycol in contact with the beer and the volume of beer. If you've got a large coil for the size of batch, then it can have a noticeable effect.

On my conical with a 25ft stainless 3/8" coil, I notice that I get about .3 degrees of overshoot. My control setup shuts off with .2 degrees of change so it's not a big deal for me. Glycol is 29-33F

For the larger guys, the glycol volume is even less for the amount of beer, so it's negligable

 

[suprchunk]

it depends on the ratio of volume of glycol in contact with the beer and the volume of beer. If you've got a large coil for the size of batch, then it can have a noticeable effect.

On my conical with a 25ft stainless 3/8" coil, I notice that I get about .3 degrees of overshoot. My control setup shuts off with .2 degrees of change so it's not a big deal for me. Glycol is 29-33F

For the larger guys, the glycol volume is even less for the amount of beer, so it's negligable

What size conical do you use?

 

[Shockerengr]

What size conical do you use?

The plastic conical referenced is 16 gallons (and typically filled with about 15)

I have worked with the 3 and 7 bbl plastic conicals as well - it's less of an issue there, but still have to be careful how everything is set up.

 

[suprchunk]

The plastic conical referenced is 16 gallons (and typically filled with about 15)

I have worked with the 3 and 7 bbl plastic conicals as well - it's less of an issue there, but still have to be careful how everything is set up.

Thank you. I'm just trying to get an idea on what size coil I'll need once I buy one.

 

[chapusin]

I cold crashed this morning down to 50c, I wonder how low it can go, I'm tempted to try to send it to 40 and see how fast it would loose temp. My fermenter is not insulated and I'm using a glycol machine inside a cold room.

 

[wasitim]

I've had three plastic 15 gal conicals running for 2 years now. I've had all three filled numerous times with two of them fermenting ale temps and one cold crashing. The coldest I've ever gotten down to is about 30-32 in the fermenter but the system struggles. Hits 35 with no problem. The limitation is due to the physics of using a home AC unit.

I don't really have any issues with the pumps (good to see you back in the game Packet, learned a ton from you). As long as I make sure it's fed before opening and that I've bled some air, works fine. I'll probably add those ball valve arrangements so I don't have undo the hose and bleed.

Although the plastic worked well for a while, I've been switching over to SS 12.5 gallon conicals. In the past year, I just haven't liked a lot of what we've brewed, off flavors, etc. I think it's because we're not strict enough about our cleaning procedures even though we have a 2" cip spray ball that blows a ton of water. I also never liked the fact that things don't seal all that well and they can't hold pressure. When we clean them, water blasts out the lid and it's a pain. The SS are just much simpler to keep clean. I could rarely ever get rid of the smell of the last brew in the plastics which just never sat well with me.

The chilling system, though, works a charm. It's PID controlled so it really dials in temps. I can also heat with my chilling system. I have a fairly large pump in my glycol cooler. If I run that without the AC going, it will heat up the glycol (found that out the hard way!). If I then set the fermenter for heat control vs cool control in the BCS, I can set a temp and it heats up the fermenter. Last week I had a Saison up to 85 in my 65 basement.

For the money you lay out for a plastic conical with all the bling, it just isn't as cost effective as it used to be given some of the alternatives out there. I was able to use my SS coils in the new fermenters as well as most of the connections on the new ones.

Happy brewing!

 

[TrickyDick]

I've had three plastic 15 gal conicals running for 2 years now. I've had all three filled numerous times with two of them fermenting ale temps and one cold crashing. The coldest I've ever gotten down to is about 30-32 in the fermenter but the system struggles. Hits 35 with no problem. The limitation is due to the physics of using a home AC unit.

I don't really have any issues with the pumps (good to see you back in the game Packet, learned a ton from you). As long as I make sure it's fed before opening and that I've bled some air, works fine. I'll probably add those ball valve arrangements so I don't have undo the hose and bleed.

Although the plastic worked well for a while, I've been switching over to SS 12.5 gallon conicals. In the past year, I just haven't liked a lot of what we've brewed, off flavors, etc. I think it's because we're not strict enough about our cleaning procedures even though we have a 2" cip spray ball that blows a ton of water. I also never liked the fact that things don't seal all that well and they can't hold pressure. When we clean them, water blasts out the lid and it's a pain. The SS are just much simpler to keep clean. I could rarely ever get rid of the smell of the last brew in the plastics which just never sat well with me.

The chilling system, though, works a charm. It's PID controlled so it really dials in temps. I can also heat with my chilling system. I have a fairly large pump in my glycol cooler. If I run that without the AC going, it will heat up the glycol (found that out the hard way!). If I then set the fermenter for heat control vs cool control in the BCS, I can set a temp and it heats up the fermenter. Last week I had a Saison up to 85 in my 65 basement.

For the money you lay out for a plastic conical with all the bling, it just isn't as cost effective as it used to be given some of the alternatives out there. I was able to use my SS coils in the new fermenters as well as most of the connections on the new ones.

Happy brewing!

Pictures please!

What brand SS conicals are you using and how did you work the coil through lid?

TD

 

[wasitim]

I'm using the conicals from American home brewing purchased on eBay. I have 2 of them so far.

I used the Greenlee hole punch I had for the electrical box build of my eBrewery for the coil holes and a step bit for the thermowell.

 

[MI_Dogman]

+1

 

[Gabrielcalo]

I have one question about this system: the direct contact of the chiller with the beer doesn´t cause a thermal shock that would be stressful for yeast?