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Brew_G

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After brewing for nearly two years, and having been given my first-ever aged sour (Duchesse) as part of a Father's Day gift this year, I finally decided to jump into the world of sour beer brewing. In late August, I went ahead and brewed five gallons of a slightly modified and bigger (1.069) version of my brown ale and pitched one packet of Roeselare (no sacch) into my bucket primary. Being that it's nearly two months into primary (with a slight pellicle and sour-ish nose), I'm starting to think about secondary and have the following aging items in mind:

1) Use a 6-gallon PET carboy for secondary
2) Add 1 lb of rehydrated dried sour cherries (washed to removed as much sunflower oil as possible)
3) Add 1/2 port-soaked medium toast American oak spiral
4) Let age for an undetermined amount of time, but assuming 10-18 months depending on taste
5) When ready, add champagne yeast and bottle

So my big questions concern the aging on cherries and oak. As mentioned, I'll wash the cherries to remove as much oil as I can, then rehydrate them. I'll boil the oak spiral to prep it, then soak that in port. The reason for just 1/2 spiral is that I don't want too muck oakiness - rather I want just a hint. I'm open to being persuaded to add the whole spiral, though. The issue is the length for which to age the beer on the cherries and oak

Should I:

- Add both when racking to secondary and let them age until ready to bottle?
- Add both when racking to secondary, but remove the oak spiral at some point? If so, how do I remove the spiral?
- Rack to secondary, then add one or both of the cherries and oak at some point later/re-rack over oak and cherries in tertiary? (this seems the least desirable solution)

I fell really, really hard for sours from the very first sip, and have been slowly increasing my own stash of them for a few months, so I'm incredibly excited about brewing them. I've increased the amount of gear I've got in order to accommodate brewing sours, and have plans to brew an aged sour every 3-4 months in order to keep a pipeline going. It's hard work sitting for so long on my first one, but hopefully once the pipeline gets going, it'll be a hell of a lot easier to be patient for the next one!
 
My .02:
Add both to a secondary, put a paper bag over it and just forget about it for a while.

I can't comment on roeselare, I usually pitch individual cultures of Brett, pedio, and lacto after primary fermentation...

I'd still strongly suggest doing extended ageing in glass carboys though. You're talking about a secondary fermentation that can take 6-12 months. Pet carboys AFAIK, are still permeable to O2. I'm not knocking plastic for primary fermentation. I do that all the time. But when I make a sour, it leaves the primary and goes into a carboy.
 
Ask 10 brewers for their opinion and you will get 12 answers. Here is my .02.

Roselare is really tame on its first pitch. You will not get something like Duchesse on the first pitch.A good beer but not as sour. I would recommend racking your brew to a glass carboy for extended aging. Don't be afraid of picking up some of the yeast cake when you rack. Then start adding some dregs from commercial sours to the carboy. This will help give you some more complexity and increase the sourness. Here is a good source to help you find brews with viable dregs. http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html. then if you want to brew another sour, just put it right on the original yeast cake. The second generation will be better.

Then after many more months start tasting it. If it is getting to where you like it, then add the cherries. If you add them too soon the flavor will fade. Also the oak can easily be overdone, so add it and begin tasting after a couple of months. When it gets to where you like it, bottle it up.

I keep 5 carboys dedicated to sours. Some take a year, some much longer. Brewing sours is fun but it is not for the impatient.

Set and forget is a good thing. I just bottled one the other day that was 16 months old and was tasting good. Racked one from a bucket right into the carboy. The key is building a good pipeline.

edit: If you are interested in brewing sours definitely pick the Book American Sour Beers by Michael Tonsmeire. (sp ?) A ton of good info.
 
My .02:
Add both to a secondary, put a paper bag over it and just forget about it for a while.

I can't comment on roeselare, I usually pitch individual cultures of Brett, pedio, and lacto after primary fermentation...

I'd still strongly suggest doing extended ageing in glass carboys though. You're talking about a secondary fermentation that can take 6-12 months. Pet carboys AFAIK, are still permeable to O2. I'm not knocking plastic for primary fermentation. I do that all the time. But when I make a sour, it leaves the primary and goes into a carboy.


Thanks, DD.

I figured it would be fine to add to secondary and put it in a corner, but I was a bit concerned about the oak.

Would 1/2 spiral of medium toast American be enough to add depth to five gallons?

As for Roeselare, I've read plenty about it, and some folks pitch it after pitching sacch to start, but others just pitch the Roeselare right from the start. By all accounts, the latter tends to provide a greater sourness, which is what I'm going for. I plan to add some commercial dregs (JP, Bruery, WW) to see if it will add a little complexity.

PET carboys are said to not be terribly oxygen permeable - perhaps even allowing a similar amount to barrels, which would work nicely. I prefer to steer clear of glass since I've got a young daughter who loves to get involved with my "beer stuff," so I'd rather take any possible accidents out of the equation and just go with plastic.
 
All sounds like great advice.
I have to add that beer is going to be really strong once 1.069 has got close to 1.000.
Not that that's a bad thing!
 
Ask 10 brewers for their opinion and you will get 12 answers. Here is my .02.

Roselare is really tame on its first pitch. You will not get something like Duchesse on the first pitch.A good beer but not as sour. I would recommend racking your brew to a glass carboy for extended aging. Don't be afraid of picking up some of the yeast cake when you rack. Then start adding some dregs from commercial sours to the carboy. This will help give you some more complexity and increase the sourness. Here is a good source to help you find brews with viable dregs. http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html. then if you want to brew another sour, just put it right on the original yeast cake. The second generation will be better.

Then after many more months start tasting it. If it is getting to where you like it, then add the cherries. If you add them too soon the flavor will fade. Also the oak can easily be overdone, so add it and begin tasting after a couple of months. When it gets to where you like it, bottle it up.

I keep 5 carboys dedicated to sours. Some take a year, some much longer. Brewing sours is fun but it is not for the impatient.

Set and forget is a good thing. I just bottled one the other day that was 16 months old and was tasting good. Racked one from a bucket right into the carboy. The key is building a good pipeline.

edit: If you are interested in brewing sours definitely pick the Book American Sour Beers by Michael Tonsmeire. (sp ?) A ton of good info.


Excellent advice, beergolf. Thanks!

It sounds like a lot of what you're saying goes with what I've read, so I at least feel I'm on the right path. I'm not worried about recreating a specific beer right now, as long as I end up with something I'm proud to pour for my buddies (and my wife!). It's tough to wait it out, but I'm generally a patient person when it comes to putting out a good product...especially when I can brew short-turnaround beers (and drink some great commercial sours) in the meantime!

I've got American Sour Beers in my Amazon cart right now...
 
All sounds like great advice.
I have to add that beer is going to be really strong once 1.069 has got close to 1.000.
Not that that's a bad thing!


You know...I was wondering about that. I know that yeast manufacturers' attenuation percentages are just a guide, and that sours tend to get pretty dry, but I was figuring on the Roeselare going to something like 85-87% or so. If it goes higher than that, I'll have no issues whatsoever!
 
Thanks, DD.

I figured it would be fine to add to secondary and put it in a corner, but I was a bit concerned about the oak.

Would 1/2 spiral of medium toast American be enough to add depth to five gallons?

PET carboys are said to not be terribly oxygen permeable - perhaps even allowing a similar amount to barrels, which would work nicely. I prefer to steer clear of glass since I've got a young daughter who loves to get involved with my "beer stuff," so I'd rather take any possible accidents out of the equation and just go with plastic.

Yeah the kid aspect will probably change my brew habits, but that's a couple months off still...:rockin:

I've only used oak cubes, that's what my lhbs sells. Without going to get my notebook I want to say I put 2 oz in and just leave it the whole time. My thought was that I could always add more if I wanted more oak flavor. I think Brew G has a good point on the fruit. I've always liked the Russian river sours because they're kind of winey instead of having a big fruit character so I never bothered to try to preserve that character.
 
Here's a picture I just took of the soured brown/bruin from the first post. We're a few days past two months in primary. Picture was taken in fairly low light right down the bung on a bucket:

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1477354868.933511.jpg

Yum...

I plan to transfer to the 6-gallon PET secondary on Friday. I'll rack over 1lb of dried Montmorency cherries (rehydrated with tart cherry juice) and throw in the port-soaked oak spiral. I'll probably add La Roja dregs at the same time - and maybe add a little more in a couple weeks. I'll then cover it up and *try* to forget about it for 8-12 months, though I'm sure I'll be anxiously checking on the pellicle!
 
Yeah the kid aspect will probably change my brew habits, but that's a couple months off still...:rockin:

I've only used oak cubes, that's what my lhbs sells. Without going to get my notebook I want to say I put 2 oz in and just leave it the whole time. My thought was that I could always add more if I wanted more oak flavor. I think Brew G has a good point on the fruit. I've always liked the Russian river sours because they're kind of winey instead of having a big fruit character so I never bothered to try to preserve that character.

Get it in while you can! :tank:

I went with a spiral that's around 1.4 oz. It's soaking in port now and will go into secondary this weekend. Cherries will go in at the same time. I'd like some of that cherry character, but I'm thinking I might get there just with extended aging with Roeselare. If it's not there, then I don't mind as long as the beer is good!
 

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