Dissolving chalk?

[beerisyummy]

Hello fellow Zymurgists,
as we know, chalk is insoluble in water. But I often wish I could bump up my calcium without affecting the sulfate/chloride ratio, and my carbonate level is often low for certain water profiles. Here it says:
"Dissolve calcium carbonate, or chalk, in your brew water by shaking it vigorously in carbonated water and leaving it to sit for a few hours. Using this water along with your regular strike water will bring up the pH of your beer. Do not add chalk directly to still water or your wort itself, as it will not dissolve."
Has anyone done this? Is it legit?

 

[tracer bullet]

We know chalk doesn't dissolve in water. But it apparently dissolves in acids. Maybe the carbonated water becomes acidic enough to do the job? Eventually the CO2 comes out of solution leaving "normal" water and at that point maybe the chalk stays dissolved?

It would be easy enough to try...

 

[beerisyummy]

We know chalk doesn't dissolve in water. But it apparently dissolves in acids. Maybe the carbonated water becomes acidic enough to do the job? Eventually the CO2 comes out of solution leaving "normal" water and at that point maybe the chalk stays dissolved?

It would be easy enough to try...

HAH! That it would. >>goes to kitchen<<

 

[bracconiere]

how do you feel about lactates, and phosphates?

edit: or aspartate?

https://www.bulksupplements.com/pro...7KRxVV-VAN4APSFAn0tz0BTaEEdIZnaIaAqUjEALw_wcB
https://www.calranch.com/aspen-calc...ahTp4KwjOVFRcpPhR75T_f3_z5wsBBj8aAgZ6EALw_wcB
(maybe the other gluco? )

 

[beerisyummy]

how do you feel about lactates, and phosphates?

edit: or aspartate?

https://www.bulksupplements.com/pro...7KRxVV-VAN4APSFAn0tz0BTaEEdIZnaIaAqUjEALw_wcB
https://www.calranch.com/aspen-calc...ahTp4KwjOVFRcpPhR75T_f3_z5wsBBj8aAgZ6EALw_wcB
(maybe the other gluco? )

Wow, interesting? Ummm ... how do you think I should feel about them?

 

[bracconiere]

Wow, interesting? Ummm ... how do you think I should feel about them?

well, since they're calcium supplements i'd assume that they'd have a neutral flavor? and you did say you want calcium, without sulfur, or salt?

 

[bracconiere]

here's one chelated with glycine? an amino acid..

https://www.iherb.com/pr/carlson-ch...v0sAiV8AHyyLpDXbNKW3P6u8QSnOHs-oaAi9rEALw_wcB

 

[AlexKay]

Most any acid will convert carbonate to bicarbonate, and lowering the amount of carbonate this way allows more calcium in solution, and so more calcium carbonate to dissolve. I don’t think there’s anything better about carbonic compared to any other (non-toxic, flavorless) weak acid.

 

[bracconiere]

Most any acid will convert carbonate to bicarbonate,

i thought the acid was normally a hydrogen donor, and it gave off water and formed a salt? maybe carbonic acid would turn carbonate into bi carbonate?

 

[hawkwing]

Hello fellow Zymurgists,
as we know, chalk is insoluble in water. But I often wish I could bump up my calcium without affecting the sulfate/chloride ratio, and my carbonate level is often low for certain water profiles. Here it says:
"Dissolve calcium carbonate, or chalk, in your brew water by shaking it vigorously in carbonated water and leaving it to sit for a few hours. Using this water along with your regular strike water will bring up the pH of your beer. Do not add chalk directly to still water or your wort itself, as it will not dissolve."
Has anyone done this? Is it legit?

It works. I carbonate a bottle of water in my sodastream add the chalk. It really only takes minutes for the amount I needed to dissolve for my Guinness clone.

 

[Miraculix]

It works. I carbonate a bottle of water in my sodastream add the chalk. It really only takes minutes for the amount I needed to dissolve for my Guinness clone.

Does it stay in solution once the co2 is gone again? Did you try bringing it to a boil maybe to force that?

 

[hawkwing]

I just added it to the mash water. Never noticed any problems. That said if you boil any hard water it leaves behind minerals. Think of a a hot water kettle or coffee pot you use with hard tap water.

 

[Miraculix]

I just added it to the mash water. Never noticed any problems. That said if you boil any hard water it leaves behind minerals. Think of a a hot water kettle or coffee pot you use with hard tap water.

Yes, but I think of you see that suddenly the chalk would drop off completely, you'd be still able to see it.

 

[hawkwing]

Yes, but I think of you see that suddenly the chalk would drop off completely, you'd be still able to see it.

It was such a small amount of chalk in the total mash water. I never noticed anything drop out. I did add other hardening salts as well. I wouldn’t worry about it.

 

[bracconiere]

Does it stay in solution once the co2 is gone again? Did you try bringing it to a boil maybe to force that?

i got to thinking, aren't mashes realitivly acidic?

i'd be curious about pulling some first runnings, and dissolving it in that?

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

You can always use Calcium Hydroxide (Pickling Lime) but then you have to offset the alkalinity bump with some acid to balance it out.

 

[bracconiere]

You can always use Calcium Hydroxide (Pickling Lime) but then you have to offset the alkalinity bump with some acid to balance it out.

something like acid malt?

 

[tracer bullet]

You can always use Calcium Hydroxide (Pickling Lime) but then you have to offset the alkalinity bump with some acid to balance it out.

I forget the details (not a chemist) but there's a thing with Calcium Hydroxide. The gist is you can use it with RO or DI water but do not want to use it with tap water. Something settles out / doesn't work together.

Eh - found it: A few words of warning regarding the use of Ca(OH)2 (Calcium Hydroxide) in mash water or in the mash

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Kai Troester (Braukaiser) experimented with Calcium Carbonate extensively, and he could never get more than half of it to go into solution.

 

[bracconiere]

Kai Troester (Braukaiser) experimented with Calcium Carbonate extensively, and he could never get more than half of it to go into solution.

did he try and sperate the liquid, and solid phases, and dry out the liquid phase, and retest it's solubility?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

His work is all still online. I actually have little interest in this subject. I just figured that since Kai at one time did, I should inform those who have interest.

 

[AlexKay]

Does anyone have experience with calcium lactate? It's sold in large quantities for cheap as a dietary supplement. It's quite soluble.

I mean, you could treat water with lactic acid, and then dissolve the calcium carbonate in the acidified water ... or you could just cut out the middleman and add calcium lactate directly.

Adding lactate will raise pH, but it's a weaker base than bicarbonate.

As far as adding a bunch of calcium without doing too much else in terms of flavor or pH, it seems ideal. I've never heard of a brewer using it, though. Anyone?

 

[tracer bullet]

bump up my calcium without affecting the sulfate/chloride ratio

Off the top - gypsum is Ca and SO4, Calcium carbonate chloride is Ca and Cl2. If you're specifically concerned about the ratio of those, you can adjust the ratio of these two things to get what you want.

That said, it's not really the ratio, but the amount of each that's important. If you have very little, or very much of each, even if they're 1:1 you'll get different beers. I suppose you know this, but I thought I'd mention it in case.

I'm guessing you're trying to "just" add Ca without the others?

 

[bracconiere]

Calcium carbonate is Ca and CO3 or Ca And 2x CO3 (if you want to be precise for mol stuff)

FTFY (and is insoluble in water)

(and gypsum actually is a blen with magnesium too)

 

[tracer bullet]

FTFY (and is insoluble in water)

(and gypsum actually is a blen with magnesium too)

I didn't mean chalk at all though. I goofed. I'll fix it - meant to type "Calcium Chloride is Ca and Cl2".

My intent was to give other, more commonly used, dissolvable options, in case they've been overlooked.

 

[bracconiere]

I didn't mean chalk at all though.

ahh, i see. i'm thinking if i wanted a calcium bomb i'd go the gluconate though...but thinking about that and when i needed a copper supp...


keep in mind the RDA for Ca is 1g, and the TUL is 2.5g's, hopefully @beerisyummy isn't shootin for that much, but should be stated with these water soluble versions...

 

[jerrylotto]

pH adjustments will dissolve your salts. I use a couple ofl ml phosphoric acid. At pH 5.6 everything dissolves. Of course, the mash pH is going to be acidic so even if you mash with a salt slurry, it will all dissolve.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Kai Troester finally recommended adding twice the "calculated" Calcium Carbonate to a mash. Only in doing this was he getting both the alkalinity and calcium boost predicted for half the amount. And as others are saying, mashes are acidic...

 

[jerrylotto]

Kai Troester finally recommended adding twice the "calculated" Calcium Carbonate to a mash.

It doesn't make any sense to me. It's not like malted grain binds calcium selectively. The only reason I can think for adding more than the calculated amount is if you're not acidic enough to dissolve it all, and in that case you're going to be pulling tannins out anyway so you have a different problem. Calcium is important for yeast health and growth. It helps to prevent the yeast from dehydrating, but too much will precipitate phosphate so you want to keep it under 100 ppm.

 

[The_Antikveik]

It's true, precipitated chalk (calcium carbonate/CaCO3) doesn't dissolve readily in [water]. BUT, a mash ain't water. Just thought I'd point that out. All acknowledgements of reality gladly donated I'm not selling anything here. BUT, I've been using CaCO3 to raise mash pH in dark beers for years. Mainly because it works. Challenge a 'water expert' why you wouldn't want to use it, the response seems to be based on panic mainly. Chalk rocks

 

[beerisyummy]

This is very interesting. It seems obvious that if chalk will dissolve in an acidic environment, and a mash is acidic .... well then...???

 

[hawkwing]

Whether or not it dissolves in the mash it dissolves in carbonated water. Your overthinking it lol.

 

[The_Antikveik]

I'd recommend extract brewers steep the darkest malts after adjusting pH with an empirically determined amount of CaCO3 (use a cheap pH pen ). Also a reality check for AG brewers questioning the use of chalk

 

[The_Antikveik]

Whether or not it dissolves in the mash it dissolves in carbonated water. Your overthinking it lol.

Nope, you're under-thinking it. Blatantly, too

 

[hawkwing]

Nope, you're under-thinking it. Blatantly, too

How so?

 

[The_Antikveik]

How so?

Because you're focusing on carbonated water rather than the mash

 

[hawkwing]

Because you're focusing on carbonated water rather than the mash

Your words not mine. Out of context BTW.

 

[beerisyummy]

Based on what I've read so far, if carb. water works, I mean, it's so simple, why not do it. There is a lot of concern over solubility of chalk, and even if it's misplaced I'd just as soon guarantee myself some Ca. Don't have the time or the chops to wade thru all the science.

 

[The_Antikveik]

Under thinking - reality - over thinking

Not really my logic as such. More common sense really.

Deviations from reality have comparable effects, regardless.

 

[The_Antikveik]

Based on what I've read so far, if carb. water works, I mean, it's so simple, why not do it. There is a lot of concern over solubility of chalk, and even if it's misplaced I'd just as soon guarantee myself some Ca. Don't have the time or the chops to wade thru all the science.

No science required. Empirical observation is more than enough to satisfy. Challenge it with a scientific design, by all means. It won't alter the fact it works. A prescribed amount of CaCO3 tossed into the mash, that is.