disparity between wine makers and beer makers

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BPenny

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i know the feeling everytime i have to carry my spent grain out to the garden..... ;) :inbottle:
🍷
I will say BIAB can get pretty rough when I have to pull a steaming brew bag full of grain out of the pot of sparge water, then hold it there while it slowly drains and burns my forearms. In retrospect, maybe I’ve been doing everything the hard way.
 

pvtpublic

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Yeah, pulley for sure, off of the truss/joist/straight sheet rock! It won't even cost a Jackson
 

BPenny

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making wine on the professional level is at least 50% about growing the grapes. As a home beer brewer, I have access to almost the exact same ingredients as the best breweries in the world….

On the other hand, I do not have access to the same grapes as the best wineries.
Exactly! Great wine can be a thing of unrivaled beauty and haunting, otherworldly complexity. But you just summed up the entire reason I make (and drink) mostly beer.
 

bwible

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Yeah a pulley would be the logical thing to do, but since I can technically get by without one on 5 gallon batches, I’m probably going to keep abusing myself in this way for the foreseeable future.
Or a large collander that can sit on top of the pot and hold your grain bag?
 

z-bob

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Yeah a pulley would be the logical thing to do, but since I can technically get by without one on 5 gallon batches, I’m probably going to keep abusing myself in this way for the foreseeable future.
Here's a picture from another thread that shows how I do it. I lift the bag up by hand, don't try to hoist it up because that would put double the load on the cabinet handle. After it drains just a little, I tie it off. I typically mash about 8 pounds of grain.
 

bracconiere

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hmmm, so we're allready getting into the details of brewing different ways in this thread? ;) :mug:


it just happened organicaly too.... lol
 

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This thread reminds me of a post I've contemplated making for the past few weeks. Lots of interesting angles here.

A grocery store we frequent is about the size of two city blocks, maybe two to three acres of covered shopping space. I was trying to guess the number of different wines they sell, and I guessed between 200 and 300 and finally asked the manager. The actual number was at least several thousand. I asked how many different beers were offered and they didn't know, I might guess between 80 and 120 different beers.

Now, that store offers about twelve different ciders, and only about two to three are genuinely dry ciders. So, in a place where literally thousands of alcoholic beverages are sold only about two to three are what I would consider buying. And they are outrageously over-the-top pricy at $20 ~ $30 a bottle.

And, it's interesting to note that beer is now approaching wine and sometimes exceeding it in cost at restaurants. As you all know, the typical "pint" glass ain't no stinkn' pint, it's a 14 ounce "shaker" glass and when poured an inch down you're lucky if you're getting the equivalent of an ordinary bottle of beer. And now a "pint" of beer (which isn't a pint) are moving up into the range of $8 ~ $10 glass. The last time we want to a restaurant I just got water.

Lots of interesting wrinkles in all of this 🤣
 

madscientist451

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To me, wine is more about chemistry. Way more than beer. Acid titration and stuff like that. There seem to be way more “chemicals” or additives that go in wine than beer.

Doing it from fresh juice or squeezing your own grapes would be a whole different challenge. Again, its all chemistry.
I make wine, cider, mead and beer.
I don't use any chemicals at all except campden at racking and some Fermaid O in the mead. (not really a chemical?)
I choose to go the "natural" route, that means letting the wine be what it will be and solving flavor issues by blending.
Some of my wine is better than others, I start with local grapes or buckets of west coast juice, I've never used a kit.
I recently picked 100 lbs of Marquette grapes at $1/lb. I made 3 gallons of rose, 4 gallons of "free run" red and 3 gallons of lower abv "second run red" (added about a gallon of water to the free run must) so about $2 a bottle, but there was a lot of labor involved. White wines are much easier and are ready much faster.
Wines made with the west coast grape juice is more like $3 a bottle, but its also way less work.
My red wines would probably be improved by intervention with chemicals, but I'm just too lazy and if I'm really picky about what grapes/juice I use, it comes out fine. I've tried many varieties of grapes and juice and there's just some that don't work for me and my lazy ways.
As far as a disparity in wine making/brewing clubs, yeah that is real, but there are some wine making clubs around, start with your local brewing/winemaking store and see if they know anything.
 

BPenny

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I make wine, cider, mead and beer.
I don't use any chemicals at all except campden at racking and some Fermaid O in the mead. (not really a chemical?)
I choose to go the "natural" route, that means letting the wine be what it will be and solving flavor issues by blending.
Some of my wine is better than others, I start with local grapes or buckets of west coast juice, I've never used a kit.
I recently picked 100 lbs of Marquette grapes at $1/lb. I made 3 gallons of rose, 4 gallons of "free run" red and 3 gallons of lower abv "second run red" (added about a gallon of water to the free run must) so about $2 a bottle, but there was a lot of labor involved. White wines are much easier and are ready much faster.
Wines made with the west coast grape juice is more like $3 a bottle, but its also way less work.
My red wines would probably be improved by intervention with chemicals, but I'm just too lazy and if I'm really picky about what grapes/juice I use, it comes out fine. I've tried many varieties of grapes and juice and there's just some that don't work for me and my lazy ways.
As far as a disparity in wine making/brewing clubs, yeah that is real, but there are some wine making clubs around, start with your local brewing/winemaking store and see if they know anything.
It seems like we have a very similar philosophy about beer, wine, cider and mead. I wouldn’t say that your minimalist approach is lazy. For everyone’s sake, I’m going to refrain from going on a rant about needlessly adding synthetic chemicals to food and drink. Instead I’ll just limit myself to saying that chemical interventions for the sake of manipulating the wine might get you something that tastes more like mass produced supermarket wines, but frankly, those are a dime a dozen, so I wouldn’t neccesarily call that an improvement, just a different style of wine.
 

Closet Fermenter

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To me, wine is more about chemistry. Way more than beer. Acid titration and stuff like that. There seem to be way more “chemicals” or additives that go in wine than beer. Beer takes longer and is more of a process on brew day with mash and boil and hop utilization but we have software that makes all that easy. I always found the chemistry part of wine making to be more challenging and feel like you almost need to be a chemist to make good wine.

We drink wine regularly, usually with food more so than beer. I buy almost all my wine but brew a significant portion of the beer I drink. Because I still also buy good beer.

My experience related to wine making is box kits from Wineexpert. Literally dump, add water, and stir. They give you pre-adjusted must and numbered, pre-measured packets with each chemical additiion. Thats easy enough and I’ve had decent results, though honestly not better than even most of the “cheaper” wines you can buy for $8 a bottle nowadays. The kits are expensive, now around $150-$200 for a 6 gallon kit that makes about 30 bottles.

Doing it from fresh juice or squeezing your own grapes would be a whole different challenge. Again, its all chemistry.

I make a lot of wine. If you want a fairly low cost, balanced wine without all the chemistry, pick up some Welch’s at the grocery store. There’s no sugar added, no preservatives or chemicals, and the Concord grape is excellent choice for wine. The good part is that you don’t have to grow, pick, clean, squeeze grapes and you don’t have to worry about on “off” year. Dial in the recipe to your preferences, and you can expect consistent results.
I do fresh muscadines too, and it is tremendously more work and the results are varied. To me, fresh fruit wine making is the “all grain” side of wine making, but perhaps more involved than the brewing, depending on your process. I enjoy it all.
 

hawkwing

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I just crushed and destemmed about 600 lbs of grapes. I didn’t have a destemmer so had to fish them out by hand. Took me two long days. Basically three full working days to get fermentation started after taking all the measurements and additions. Never had to add any sugar but a few needed some tartaric acid. I added a maceration enzyme, potassium metabisulfite and yeast.

It’s definately hard work. Wine grapes are not easy to get where I am. I had to find an importer and they are rare here.

I’ve made country wines where I pick chokecherries and that’s a lot of work too.

Beer is nice because Of the labor aspect is less. But it was still a bit work figuring a recipe. If you have the recipe in hand a repeat is pretty easy.

As long as I’m able I plan to keep making everything.
 
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bitterbad

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As long as I’m able I plan to keep making everything.
Love this. I live by this honestly. I like coffee so i learned how to make every espresso drink, I like pastries and bread so I learned how to bake, I like all sorts of cooking traditions so I learned those too, gardening, fishing, foraging. Most of these I learned simply because I'd rather have them at home than have to go to a cafe/grocery store/restaurant for them and spend 5 times as much money. Crazy to me how this isn't just the standard way to live.
 

bracconiere

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Love this. I live by this honestly. I like coffee so i learned how to make every espresso drink, I like pastries and bread so I learned how to bake, I like all sorts of cooking traditions so I learned those too, gardening, fishing, foraging. Most of these I learned simply because I'd rather have them at home than have to go to a cafe/grocery store/restaurant for them and spend 5 times as much money. Crazy to me how this isn't just the standard way to live.


now you're just man spreading..... :mug:
 

pvtpublic

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Love this. I live by this honestly. I like coffee so i learned how to make every espresso drink, I like pastries and bread so I learned how to bake, I like all sorts of cooking traditions so I learned those too, gardening, fishing, foraging. Most of these I learned simply because I'd rather have them at home than have to go to a cafe/grocery store/restaurant for them and spend 5 times as much money. Crazy to me how this isn't just the standard way to live.
I've been doing the same thing minus the coffee, since I drink it straight. It is so much more satisfying and rewarding. Sipping on some juneberry wine I foraged, using home canned tomatoes from the garden in a recipe, a deer roast I shot and butchered, furniture I made from dead fall. I couldn't agree with you more!
 

pvtpublic

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Getting back to the topic though, I do a basic destemming. I don't worry about each little one so long as I get the majority of it out. Then throw it in the press, and let it drain into the carboy. Pitch, then wait. There have been brew days that made me wish I could just throw my f%@$ing mash into that press and call it good.
 

bwible

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We drink wine pretty regularly, just about always with dinner or food. It’s fun to match wine with food. I’ve been reading about it and studying it. And when you get it right its a great experience. I don’t make wine, I buy it. Great bottles out there in the $10-$15 range today. Especially with places like Total Wine.

We’ve been doing it for awhile. I am pretty comfortable with US wines, California, Washington State, etc. I’m pretty comfortable with Italian wines. France is still the huge mystery.

Lots of wines are food friendly. I’m not sure why wine gets this snob reputation. There is some reading and learning and tasting to do, like beer or anything else. I’m at a point where I can pick out some grapes pretty reliably, but not all of them and not all the time. We have fun with wine and believe me, we are not snobs.
 

BPenny

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Love this. I live by this honestly. I like coffee so i learned how to make every espresso drink, I like pastries and bread so I learned how to bake, I like all sorts of cooking traditions so I learned those too, gardening, fishing, foraging. Most of these I learned simply because I'd rather have them at home than have to go to a cafe/grocery store/restaurant for them and spend 5 times as much money. Crazy to me how this isn't just the standard way to live.
Have you gotten into roasting your own coffee yet?
 

Cider Wraith

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There’s no sugar added, no preservatives or chemicals, and the Concord grape is excellent choice for wine. The good part is that you don’t have to grow, pick, clean, squeeze grapes and you don’t have to worry about on “off” year. Dial in the recipe to your preferences, and you can expect consistent results.
Now you're talking! ... my approach as well. But it sound to me like you might just be making grape cider? - which would be great. I don't know anything about wine I just make ciders with a variety of other flavoring 100% pure juices. I'd guess with what you described you're at about 8% alcohol - which would be fine, but would that be wine?
 

BPenny

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Now you're talking! ... my approach as well. But it sound to me like you might just be making grape cider? - which would be great. I don't know anything about wine I just make ciders with a variety of other flavoring 100% pure juices. I'd guess with what you described you're at about 8% alcohol - which would be fine, but would that be wine?
Technically, even apple cider is a type of wine.
 

Cider Wraith

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Technically, even apple cider is a type of wine
Thanks for the reply - yes, I'm vaguely aware of that but there must be something odd that's different because I enjoy thoroughly fermented down-dry ciders but can barely swallow wine :oops:
 

BPenny

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Thanks for the reply - yes, I'm vaguely aware of that but there must be something odd that's different because I throughly enjoy cider but can barely swallow wine :oops:
That just seems like a stylistic preference. I have a friend who loves pale ales and wheat beers but I gave him a 9% ABV Belgian beer once and he hated it. Cider is generally lighter on the palate and more subtle than wine. Have you tried any lighter sparkling white wines like Spanish Cava? there is one I get at Trader Joes for $6.99 that is only around 10-11% ABV and is reminiscent of a more refined strong dry cider.
 
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bitterbad

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Have you gotten into roasting your own coffee yet?
Nope, but I've roasted and winnowed my own chocolate beans. Every year relatives or friends gift me coffee beans, but I'm starting to run out so I might make my own soon
 

Cider Wraith

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That just seems like a stylistic preference. I have a friend who loves pale ales and wheat beers but I gave him a 9% ABV Belgian beer once and he hated it. Cider is generally lighter on the palate and more subtle than wine. Have you tried any lighter sparkling white wines like Spanish Cava? there is one I get at Trader Joes for $6.99 that is only around 10-11% ABV and is reminiscent of a more refined strong dry cider
Thanks for the recommendation. Haven't tried much wine because I unfortunately gasp when I take a tiny taste. Wonder why that would be? Everything you've written is exactly right so the mystery endures. And when I make ciders I add flavoring juices definitely including grapes and ferment to flat bone-dry and they're fruity with ideal residual sweetness. The mystery endures....
 
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hawkwing

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Thanks for the recommendation. Haven't tried much wine because I unfortunately gasp when I take a tiny taste. Wonder why that would be? Everything you've written is exactly right so the mystery endures. And when I make ciders I add flavoring juices definitely including grapes and ferment to flat bone-dry and they're fruity with ideal residual sweetness. The mystery endures....
That’s something I did when I was a teenager lol. Never cared for the taste of beer back them. I remember some old flat white wine my parents had. Reminds me of the jackass episode with the horse. Of course you can develop a taste for things. I find reds easier to take than whites. But the sweet wines like ice wine, port and cream Sherry are really good.
 
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bitterbad

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Thanks for the recommendation. Haven't tried much wine because I unfortunately gasp when I take a tiny taste. Wonder why that would be? Everything you've written is exactly right so the mystery endures. And when I make ciders I add flavoring juices definitely including grapes and ferment to flat bone-dry and they're fruity with ideal residual sweetness. The mystery endures....
You might find this article quite pertinent to you. Sounds like your tongue is sensitive to the tannins. Mine is too which is why I only like sweet wines, but i also really like sweet wines. I got into the hobby so I could make things tailored exactly to my own tastes, I recommend you try making wine in the same way. Don't add extra tannin, keep it sweet, maybe don't add yeast nutrients so that they die quicker, keeping the ABV down and the sweetness up. Or just experiment and find what you like. Maybe try making an apple wine
 

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Now you're talking! ... my approach as well. But it sound to me like you might just be making grape cider? - which would be great. I don't know anything about wine I just make ciders with a variety of other flavoring 100% pure juices. I'd guess with what you described you're at about 8% alcohol - which would be fine, but would that be wine?
I should have been more clear; the “no sugar added” was in reference to the juice as it comes from the store. This allows me to add the proper amount of sugar to get a 14% wine.
 

Closet Fermenter

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Have you gotten into roasting your own coffee yet?
Roasting your own coffee is well worth the trouble unless you want to pay premium prices, just like beer and wine. You also get to dial in the roast you like. I personally do a blend of dark and medium roast that suits us. Fresh ground each morning; nothing could be better!
 
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My guess is that beer just takes less time to make, so it's easier to make something, show it off, get feedback, and then make something else; is this accurate?
This part for me at least is true. I am 1 Gallon brewer due to the space in my current place and I tried my hand at mead, when I first got into brewing. I just found the wait was not worth the small amount I could make. In time I could make mead and let it age properly, I could easily make 6-8 beers that were ready to drink.

Also around me there much more of beer and homebrew culture than a wine making one.
 
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hawkwing

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I find around me there is really only one maybe two beer stores. Lot more wine making stores. The wine making stores do sell beer kits but as far as all grain there is barely any. For a while there was none. Most of the wine stores are now Ubrew in store. But this seems to be a guy’s hobby and well seems guys drink more beer.
 
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