"Dirt" flavor in American wheats hopped with Sylva

[QuercusMax]

I've made 2 American wheats this winter/spring, and both of them had a very peculiar off-flavor, which I'm having trouble pinpointing. The best I can describe it is "dirt". Maybe an intense earthyness, to the extent it's unpleasant?

I designed the recipe to showcase the Sylva hops, which I hadn't used before and are supposed to be a Aussive Saaz derivative. Overall I like the hop flavor quite a lot, and they are very saaz-y.

Recipe for the 1st batch:

6lb Durst Pils
2lb Avangard Wheat Malt
1lb Avangard Light Munich
.5 lb Honey malt
Acid Malt for pH adjustment
Rice hulls to help with lauter

.7oz Sylva 7% @60
2oz Sylva 7% @10
1oz Sylva 7% @0
US-05 Yeast

Mash at 150, but after 1 hour it read 142. 
OG 1.048, FG 1.007

I detected a little bit of this "dirt" flavor in the background on the first batch. My initial thought was maybe it was due to bittering with the Sylva, so I switched to Magnum for bittering. I increased the wheat malt a little and changed the base malt to the new Avangard Pale Ale to see how it turned out.

Recipe was very similar:

6.5lb Avangard Pale Ale
3lb Avangard Wheat malt
.5 lb Honey malt
Acid Malt
Rice hulls to help with lauter

Mash at 150

.3oz Magnum 14% @60
2oz Sylva 7% @10
1oz Sylva 7% @0

US-05 Yeast
OG 1.048, FG 1.008

In this one, the "dirt" flavor is very strong, almost overpowering. The first batch I repitched US-05, the second I used a fresh packet. Fermented in my basement at the low-to-mid-60s. No other beers I've made have had this flavor, which I can attribute to one of a few things:

1. The Sylva. Maybe I'm just using too much?
2. Avangard Wheat. I haven't really brewed anything else with this malt, but my experiences with other Avangard malts has been very positive.
3. The Honey Malt. Seems unlikely.
4. Rice Hulls. They're supposed to impart no flavor, but is this possible?

It's definitely not my water - in the same time period I have made a Helles (Silver medal winner), a Maibock, and 2 Boh Pils, and none of them have had this flavor.

Any ideas?

 

[pdietert]

Could be the hops, you might just be more sensitive to Farnesene which has a woody earthy flavor. Sylva has about 25% Farnesene. If it is, it should dissipate with time. Has anyone else tasted either beer and (without you suggesting) reported the same flavor/aroma?

 

[QuercusMax]

Wow, thanks! That makes a lot of sense. "Woody/earthy" is a good description. I guess I describe it to sort of as a cross between green wood and decaying forest material.

I entered my first batch into a competition, but haven't gotten my sheets back yet - it scored a 33, so it couldn't have been too awful. I had a friend tell me it was his favorite (over my medal winners), but that was at the end of the night.


Tasting it again with the knowledge that it's probably Farnesene that I'm tasting, it is more pleasant. I feel like it would go really nice in a Belgian blonde or Tripel.

 

[pdietert]

Sometimes I taste things I do not expect and my senses focus on it. It usually takes a second opinion for it to go away. That score of 33 should tell you that it is not as perceptible as you thought.

 

[masonsjax]

Could there have been mildew on the hops? Maybe the hops or the beer are oxidized, which can taste musty or earthy. How do the hops smell, asuming you still have some unused?

 

[QuercusMax]

Could there have been mildew on the hops? Maybe the hops or the beer are oxidized, which can taste musty or earthy. How do the hops smell, asuming you still have some unused?

First batch was fresh from Yakima Valley Hops. It was an 8oz package, rest were kept in freezer. They looked and smelled fine both times.

I used 1.5oz as bittering hops in a baltic porter, which has no dirt flavor I can detect.

After 3 pints, the flavor is growing on me - I'm going to have quite a few folks over for Memorial Day, I'll poll some friends who I know enjoy good beer.

 

[stpug]

I recently tasted a friends "cream ale" with 8-12 oz honey malt and it had an off-putting dust-like character to it. I would not overlook the honey malt in your recipes.

 

[QuercusMax]

I'm getting the same flavor to a much lesser degree in my Session IPA. Recipe:

10 gals
19 lb Avangard pale ale
1lb C80


.9oz magnum, .35 chinook @60
3 zythos 9.4%, 3 chinook 12.3% @0, with a 10 min hopstand.
43 IBU, 1.049.

Fermented half with us-05 (FG 1.011), half with s04 (1.014). The 05 has a subtle but noticeable version of this "dirt" flavor. I can't taste it in the 04. It's not unpleasant in this beer.

It's gotta be a combination of 05 and the hops. I don't know what's in Zythos (it's a blend), but it must include a high-Farnesene component.

This beer is also insanely cloudy even after sitting cold in the keg 2 weeks.