Differing opinion between LHBS and information from this forum.

[tspilker]

I went to my LHBS today to find out about their "recipe only" policy. It has to do with a hop shortage, so they will only sell completed kits, which I wanted to make sure would still allow me to come in with a recipe from this message board to make it. They said I could.

My problem is with bottle conditioning.

I made a no-boil kit, and the instructions given to me by my LHBS was that for the bottle conditioning, add 3/4 cup of boiled corn sugar to my beer, mix it, and then bottle it at fermentation temp for 10-14 days.

At 14 days it still has very little CO2. According to the LHBS, this is because "The beer is colder than the ambient room temperature, so the yeast is going dormant" thus my white residue at the bottom.

As far as I recall from chemistry, the reason the bottle feels colder than the air is due to it's conductivity, not it's temperature.

They suggested that I move it to a warmer location (it's at 70 degrees now) after shaking the white sediment back into solution. This is against the suggestions to let it bottle condition for 4 weeks (which LHBS told me will make the yeast go completely dormant)

Finally, his reasoning was because "Sierra Nevada brewery bottle conditions their beer and carbonates it in 5 days"

Let me know if this is just a problem with how I explained my problem, or if his methods are flawed.

Also, I'm brewing a porter which I am anxious to try as it is my first brew. I want to do an extract brew this weekend.

 

[borracho_brewer]

70* should be fine, give it another week or two and...

RDWHAHB, or any brew for that matter

 

[tspilker]

70* should be fine, give it another week or two and...

RDWHAHB, or any brew for that matter

I picked up some Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale tonight... and a Stone RIS since I have no class/work tomorrow!

I just don't understand why he would worry me like that.

 

[menschmaschine]

First of all, there isn't that much of a hop shortage anymore. Sure, it's not like the old days, but you can buy hops by the pound again now. Secondly, 70°F is just fine for carbonation temps. Hell, 65°F is still good. Give it another week. Third, I believe Sierra Nevada force carbs their beer. I haven't had one in a while, but wouldn't there be yeast sediment in the bottle if they were bottle conditioned? Sounds like minimal conversation might be a good policy for shopping at your LHBS.

 

[lx302]

Strange that your LHBS has a hop shortage, mine dropped the policy early this year.

 

[tspilker]

Yeah, it was weird, they are the only place I have heard about the hop shortage in my short time being in this hobby.

Their prices are rather high too. I am considering working online-only since I don't know of any other LHBSs nearby.

I wonder if CDA, ID has one...

 

[Clonefarmer]

First of all, there isn't that much of a hop shortage anymore. Sure, it's not like the old days, but you can buy hops by the pound again now. Secondly, 70°F is just fine for carbonation temps. Hell, 65°F is still good. Give it another week. Third, I believe Sierra Nevada force carbs their beer. I haven't had one in a while, but wouldn't there be yeast sediment in the bottle if they were bottle conditioned? Sounds like minimal conversation might be a good policy for shopping at your LHBS.

There is a small amount of sediment in Sierra Nevada. I believe they krausen their beer.

 

[Beerthoven]

I agree with the others. Wait another week or two and you should have more carbonation.

Also, with bottle conditioned homebrew, you really need to let them chill in the fridge for at least one whole day (24 hours) before opening.

 

[tspilker]

I agree with the others. Wait another week or two and you should have more carbonation.

Also, with bottle conditioned homebrew, you really need to let them chill in the fridge for at least one whole day (24 hours) before opening.

I have been told that. Is there any reason for the 24 hours vs 12 hours or something.

I threw one of them in the fridge this morning in hopes of trying it's CO2 level tonight, is there any significant reason for not trying it until tomorrow (ie, the carb level being different?). I would think when it reached target temp, not much change would happen.

 

[Homercidal]

If you didn't stir the sugar into the beer well enough, you might have gotten inconsistent priming. If you, so may have gotten a bottle with not enough priming sugar.

I'd let it ride at 70 for another week or two and see what happens. Even though lots of recipes call for bottle conditioning for 2-3 weeks, it often takes a few more before they come out "right".

 

[Edcculus]

First of all, there isn't that much of a hop shortage anymore. Sure, it's not like the old days, but you can buy hops by the pound again now. Secondly, 70°F is just fine for carbonation temps. Hell, 65°F is still good. Give it another week. Third, I believe Sierra Nevada force carbs their beer. I haven't had one in a while, but wouldn't there be yeast sediment in the bottle if they were bottle conditioned? Sounds like minimal conversation might be a good policy for shopping at your LHBS.

SN does bottle condition their beer. I know there was an article in BYO about it. I'll try to track it down. They actually filter, then add in a precise amount of yeast and priming sugar. From what I remember about the interview, they do prime with dextrose. Also, if I remember right, they put the primed bottles in a warmish room (~70*F) and let them condition for 15 days.

EDIT:
Here is the article. Its from 1997, but I'm sure they haven't changed much.

 

[TheTower]

I have been told that. Is there any reason for the 24 hours vs 12 hours or something.

I threw one of them in the fridge this morning in hopes of trying it's CO2 level tonight, is there any significant reason for not trying it until tomorrow (ie, the carb level being different?). I would think when it reached target temp, not much change would happen.

Chilling the beer forces the built-up CO2 in the headspace into solution, further carbonating the beer. If you only chill it for a couple hours, the beer will cool down but it won't have enough time to absorb the CO2, you'll just vent a lot of the gas when you open it. You need to give it time for the CO2 to be forced into solution after chilling it.

 

[HotbreakHotel]

I heard a suggestion on Basic Brewing radio. One guy was having this problem and he stretched a balloon over one of the bottles. The baloon expanded, so he knew it was a problem in his capping, that he wasn't getting a good seal.

As for your LHBS Hop Nazis, I guess with how I buy ingredients it would be against their policy for me to shop there at all, because I buy my ingredients 2-3 batches ahead and keep a small inventory at my house. I might decide at the last minute to change something! They could just limit hop purchases instead of having a "kit only" policy.

Some LHBS people have more experience and knowledge than others, but as a rule I regard their "instructions" as "opinions," and cross check information on this board, other oards, google, my books, etc. I even regard my own "opinions" as only "opinions!" Even a really experienced brewer may have certain quirks or disagreements with other equally experienced brewers.

 

[menschmaschine]

SN does bottle condition their beer. I know there was an article in BYO about it. I'll try to track it down. They actually filter, then add in a precise amount of yeast and priming sugar. From what I remember about the interview, they do prime with dextrose. Also, if I remember right, they put the primed bottles in a warmish room (~70*F) and let them condition for 15 days.

EDIT:
Here is the article. Its from 1997, but I'm sure they haven't changed much.

Who's stupid NOW?? (Me)

Interesting. I stand corrected. That was hard to believe because they make a lot of beer. I figured it would be much more cost effective for them to force carbonate.

But OK, so the LHBS guy got 1 out of 3 right.

 

[tspilker]

I heard a suggestion on Basic Brewing radio. One guy was having this problem and he stretched a balloon over one of the bottles. The baloon expanded, so he knew it was a problem in his capping, that he wasn't getting a good seal.

As for your LHBS Hop Nazis, I guess with how I buy ingredients it would be against their policy for me to shop there at all, because I buy my ingredients 2-3 batches ahead and keep a small inventory at my house. I might decide at the last minute to change something! They could just limit hop purchases instead of having a "kit only" policy.

Some LHBS people have more experience and knowledge than others, but as a rule I regard their "instructions" as "opinions," and cross check information on this board, other oards, google, my books, etc. I even regard my own "opinions" as only "opinions!" Even a really experienced brewer may have certain quirks or disagreements with other equally experienced brewers.

Their policy seems to be that their word is gold and the internet is littered with crappy ideas. I asked if there were any local clubs and he said "no, the internet has done some serious damage to home brewing, littered with bad advice and such"

Im a technology advocate, these words felt like sins on my fragile ears. I dont think I want to shop there very much unless I forget something.

I wanted to buy some starsan for sanitizing (I was using one-step before), and all they carry is Idophor for sanitizing and BLC for cleaning. I asked why and he said "because that stuff actually works"

Really? I mean, its one thing to have an opinion, but to direct the opinion at a novice as though it's fact is just dangerous.

 

[mahilly]

Its from 1997, but I'm sure they haven't changed much.

Actually, SN expanded their operation and more than doubled their output sometime around 97-98 (I was still in school - Chico State - and toured their facility in/around '96 when they were under construction). Not sure if they changed the way they brewed, but it's possible.

 

[Kungpaodog]

I agree with Hotbreakhotel, you ought to tell that LHBS to shove it and order from someone reputable online. Kits only my ass. I rarely buy a whole recipe from my LHBS since I wash my own yeast and I usually have something lying around from a larger purchase that goes into another batch.

 

[Cheeto]

tspilker,

Instead of bashing there advice I would just find a good online retailer and move on!

I know the place you are talking about and yes they have some very strong opinions.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/4966-post1.html

here is a great list of places,

again I am not nor will I say that the LHBS there is a bad place, but they are a bit behind the times !



-Jason

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Tell 'em to shove it. I order hops from a wholesaler who supplies micros and ubrews.

He said in an email to me (ignore the exchange rate stuff, unless you are Canadian):

If my crystal ball is correct, I expect hops to come down in the summer. 2 reasons: 1 is exchange. At 1.27 right now, we are paying 27% more than last summer when CAD/US$ were at par; 2 is supply. I think by July 1st it will be apparent that a few varieties are in abundance, and I expect there to be some fire sales.

Looking at longer term forward contracts, I see hops only dropping $2/lb in each of the next 3 years. We will NEVER get back to the glory days of $5/lb hops! But I think $10 - 12 US$/lb is possible in a few years.

 

[rico567]

There's no reason to believe that someone at a LHBS is any more of an authority than the next homebrewer. I've brewed long enough to trust experience, and my experience is largely (but not exclusively) based on following Palmer (How to Brew). What I've learned on this topic is:

1) The beer -I've brewed a wide variety of extract styles- will carbonate pretty well in two weeks @ 70F. I can then move it to my 56F basement. It will NOT carbonate if I move it to the lower temp right away.

2) I dissolve the priming sugar (5 oz for 5 gal batch) in 2 cups boiling water, then throw the solution into the beer as I begin to rack it into the bottling bucket. As far as I can tell, the bottles turn out uniformly carbonated / conditioned.

 

[tspilker]

tspilker,

Instead of bashing there advice I would just find a good online retailer and move on!

I know the place you are talking about and yes they have some very strong opinions.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/4966-post1.html

here is a great list of places,

again I am not nor will I say that the LHBS there is a bad place, but they are a bit behind the times !



-Jason

I ordered supplies for EdWort's Haus Ale from Austin Homebrew. I like the flat rate shipping!

 

[Revvy]

We get threads like this all the time, asking, "how come my lhbs say this (or Palmer, or papzian even) and you guys say this..."


In terms of lhb's, remember, not every proprieter reads every forum or book or listens to every podcast, so the last book or info they may have learned may be in Papazian from 30 years ago.

Heck even Palmer has learned stuff since he wrote how to brew, and has said things on podcasts that he admits contradicts what he wrote (look for the Basic brewing podcast called, "What is an Ibu, Really?" it will blow your mind....

This is an ever evolving hobby...Places like this is where you find the most state of the art information/wisdom about brewing, because of the sheer number of us trying new things, hearing new things, and even breaking new ground and contributing to the body of info on the hobby...Look at some of that inventions that came out of here, and then ended up later in BYO articles by our members...


But not every person, especially one of those "you can't teach an old dog" types aren't going to be up on the latest ideas.

Remember to a lot of LHBS'er or employees, it is only a job..not an obsession...so they are not always as necessarily passionate, or zealous learnign new things, or trying new techniques, like we are....SOme even though they have been in the business forever, may never had progressed in the hobby beyond extract kits...some may rarely brew at all.

So often it is not surprising that we know more or are at least in touch with more info that someone who does it for a living....

 

[tspilker]

We get threads like this all the time, asking, "how come my lhbs say this (or Palmer, or papzian even) and you guys say this..."


In terms of lhb's, remember, not every proprieter reads every forum or book or listens to every podcast, so the last book or info they may have learned may be in Papazian from 30 years ago.

Heck even Palmer has learned stuff since he wrote how to brew, and has said things on podcasts that he admits contradicts what he wrote (look for the Basic brewing podcast called, "What is an Ibu, Really?" it will blow your mind....

This is an ever evolving hobby...Places like this is where you find the most state of the art information/wisdom about brewing, because of the sheer number of us trying new things, hearing new things, and even breaking new ground and contributing to the body of info on the hobby...Look at some of that inventions that came out of here, and then ended up later in BYO articles by our members...


But not every person, especially one of those "you can't teach an old dog" types aren't going to be up on the latest ideas.

Remember to a lot of LHBS'er or employees, it is only a job..not an obsession...so they are not always as necessarily passionate, or zealous learnign new things, or trying new techniques, like we are....SOme even though they have been in the business forever, may never had progressed in the hobby beyond extract kits...some may rarely brew at all.

So often it is not surprising that we know more or are at least in touch with more info that someone who does it for a living....

I didnt know there are homebrew podcasts. What are some good ones?

I read how to brew by palmer. If he does a podcast.. that rules.

 

[ifishsum]

There's nothing wrong with them having a differing opinion on how to brew, heck most of us don't agree on every step of the process - but for them to say that theirs is the only right way and other ideas are garbage is just asinine to me.

Last year my LHBS had a policy that you could only purchased hops when other recipe ingredients were also purchased there (it didn't have to be a kit though), I don't think they have it any more.

 

[Revvy]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f19/podcasts-64180/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/what-better-brewing-podcasts-101611/

 

[tspilker]

I guess I never thought that people don't always seek to find more knowledge. Some people just get set in their ways. It is awkward to be at his shop as a novice because he up sells everything. So I constantly feel judged when I am there.

He kept trying to get me to buy his 2L bottles of premade wort that you just add yeast to and seal. So doing my own thing there requires me to be super prepared before walking in. I will prefer to do my shopping online.

 

[Revvy]

I guess I never thought that people don't always seek to find more knowledge. Some people just get set in their ways. It is awkward to be at his shop as a novice because he up sells everything. So I constantly feel judged when I am there.

He kept trying to get me to buy his 2L bottles of premade wort that you just add yeast to and seal. So doing my own thing there requires me to be super prepared before walking in. I will prefer to do my shopping online.

You find people set in their ways everywhere, even here if you are round long enough, you will see the arguments. The thing to remember is that in reality there is no wrong way to do this, and no one process is any better...they all make beer, and those that talk about them, are really talking out our preferred method of doing it.

Ultimately you have to do the research, and experiment, and come up with a process that works for you.

 

[ifishsum]

He kept trying to get me to buy his 2L bottles of premade wort that you just add yeast to and seal. So doing my own thing there requires me to be super prepared before walking in. I will prefer to do my shopping online.

Well, that would certainly be no fun. You're not really learning anything that way.

If you must continue to shop there, have a list of things you want and don't ask questions. Who cares what he thinks anyway? Brew how you want to and how you like I say.

 

[android]

this sounds like one of the semi-LHBS around me. i have since found one that i like better, but i hated going in that place, made me feel like a total idiot.

 

[SumnerH]

Heck even Palmer has learned stuff since he wrote how to brew, and has said things on podcasts that he admits contradicts what he wrote (look for the Basic brewing podcast called, "What is an Ibu, Really?" it will blow your mind....

+1 on this. I've listened to dozen of podcasts, but as far as correcting old, entrenched misinformation in the homebrew community, this one is at the top of the list.

It's the March 20 episode from here:
Basic Brewing™ : Home Brewing Beer Podcast and DVD - Basic Brewing Radio™ 2008

 

[Cheeto]

tspilker,

Yes is Sept this year I will contact you to set up a brew day in Spokane

I have a few other brewers that are intrested as well

-Jason