Did Anybody do a lager vs ale (neutral ale yeast) comparaison with the same recipe?

[Samuelouellette]

Seeing the results of Brulosophy w34/70 fermentation temperature experiment (no significant diffrence between 50F vs 66f)

Did anybody really tested the aroma/flavor/mouthfeel of a lager yeast (w-34/70, 2124) vs ale yeast (s-05/1056) side by side comparaison using a simple pilsner/ pale lager recipe?

It is something that I will test in the near future but I'm just curious if anybody really noticed any diffrence.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Side by side testing? No, I haven't done anything formal.

Anecdotal testing? Yes, I have used 1007 German Ale yeast to make faux-lagers with relative success. Fermented cool under 65F for primary then secondary for 2-3 weeks at 55F definitely gave me lager-ish character. I am sure a super taster judge would've caught them out and noticed some esters compared to a true lager.

Taste and perception, and lager vs. ale, are probably much more complicated than we give credit to.

 

[Tofek]

I did the test on a beer with W34/70 (12°C) and Nottingham (20°C) : I can't tell them apart...ok the beer was quite hopped with slovenian hops, but still. It was a 1060ish beer with 10% caramunich II.

 

[specharka]

No, I have not, but I would be very curious to see what the outcome is. I'd recommend using liquid over dry yeast -- I find that dry yeast has a particular character which can sometimes muddy the yeast esters. 2124 and 1056 are very clean and neutral, but I think it would be interesting to see how they stack up against 1007.

 

[Samuelouellette]

I did the test on a beer with W34/70 (12°C) and Nottingham (20°C) : I can't tell them apart...ok the beer was quite hopped with slovenian hops, but still. It was a 1060ish beer with 10% caramunich II.

Interesting. I'm wondering if with a pale lager recipe you couldve telled the difference between w34/70 and nottingham.

 

[Samuelouellette]

No, I have not, but I would be very curious to see what the outcome is. I'd recommend using liquid over dry yeast -- I find that dry yeast has a particular character which can sometimes muddy the yeast esters. 2124 and 1056 are very clean and neutral, but I think it would be interesting to see how they stack up against 1007.

Yes that's a great idea, in the near future (couple of months from now), I'll test 1056 vs 1007 vs 2124 with the same fermentation temperature (low 60).

I'm just hoping that there is a difference and the effort to use lager yeast + lager is noticeable or else homebrewers would be better off using s05/1056 for making pilsners.

 

[Tofek]

Interesting. I'm wondering if with a pale lager recipe you couldve telled the difference between w34/70 and nottingham.

The Nottingham is so clean, taste and appareance, that it could easily replace lager yeast. Except if you're looking for sulfur or diacetyl, which characterize some deep bohemian old-fashioned lagers.

 

[hottpeper13]

So, just tapped that scenario, made my house ale which is a honey Kolsch,split it 3 ways, 5 gal 2565, 2.5 on 2124, 2.5 on 833. My buddy and I were making lager starters for a big brew so instead of tossing it out we kegged it. Haven't tried the 2124 yet, getting that on Fri. but there is a huge difference between the 833 and 2565. 833- is just like a helles, smooth very clean with slight malt aftertaste. My first lager and everyone is amazed. 2565- this was my first time being able to lager my Kolsch below 50*, so these were done side by each and what a mellow beer , slight fruit up front with big malt at the finish. I also have done this recipe with 2565 and Notty because Notty is ready in 5-6 weeks and my Kolsch takes ~12 weeks. The cool thing is they can both use the same fermentation profile. one of the best things to happen when I upgraded to 10 gal batches is the yeast splitting and then my brother gifts me with 2 2.5 gal flat bottom 10L pyres laboratory jars that a universal carboy plug fits in. so now I can do 3. So far ALL of the split batches came out as different beers some so much that they can be on tap at the same time.

 

[Samuelouellette]

So, just tapped that scenario, made my house ale which is a honey Kolsch,split it 3 ways, 5 gal 2565, 2.5 on 2124, 2.5 on 833. My buddy and I were making lager starters for a big brew so instead of tossing it out we kegged it. Haven't tried the 2124 yet, getting that on Fri. but there is a huge difference between the 833 and 2565. 833- is just like a helles, smooth very clean with slight malt aftertaste. My first lager and everyone is amazed. 2565- this was my first time being able to lager my Kolsch below 50*, so these were done side by each and what a mellow beer , slight fruit up front with big malt at the finish. I also have done this recipe with 2565 and Notty because Notty is ready in 5-6 weeks and my Kolsch takes ~12 weeks. The cool thing is they can both use the same fermentation profile. one of the best things to happen when I upgraded to 10 gal batches is the yeast splitting and then my brother gifts me with 2 2.5 gal flat bottom 10L pyres laboratory jars that a universal carboy plug fits in. so now I can do 3. So far ALL of the split batches came out as different beers some so much that they can be on tap at the same time.

I'm glad you did and your results reassured me. Have you tried the 2124? Would be interesting to see the diffrence between 2124 and 833. Also did you do a blind taste test for 833 vs 2656?

Thanks again for your info

 

[hottpeper13]

The difference between 833 and 2124 was the malt character. Both were very good brews, the 2124 had more malt aftertaste. We are doing 4 different beers splitting between these yeasts, so we'll see where it goes. At this time I prefer the 2124 only because i'm seeking the malt backbone. Yesterdays brew was a kinda Yuengling style,although we tried to make a very light SRM one. I think the 833 will come closer, we'll see. As far as the blind test, no, but side by each they were way different. I've been trying for a while to make a lager like ale and the 2112 is the closest , and you can name all the beers after Rush songs and lyrics.

 

[Samuelouellette]

The difference between 833 and 2124 was the malt character. Both were very good brews, the 2124 had more malt aftertaste. We are doing 4 different beers splitting between these yeasts, so we'll see where it goes. At this time I prefer the 2124 only because i'm seeking the malt backbone. Yesterdays brew was a kinda Yuengling style,although we tried to make a very light SRM one. I think the 833 will come closer, we'll see. As far as the blind test, no, but side by each they were way different. I've been trying for a while to make a lager like ale and the 2112 is the closest , and you can name all the beers after Rush songs and lyrics.

Good info, I'll stick with 34/70 / 2124 for malty brews for now on and Danish lager 2042 for my pilsner as I want to enhance hop flavor.

A passage to dryhop, YYyeast,Closer to the malt.

 

[skw]

I have yooper's octoberfest recipe in a split batch, between Wy 860 (Munich Helles) and Rogue PacMan (harvested from a bottle). They're conditioning until April, so I can't give a final verdict, but the gravity samples were different.

Does pacman count as neutral? I don't have much experience with it yet. I have done split batches between diffferent lager strains and am not sure if there even is such a thing as neutral yeast.

 

[Samuelouellette]

I have yooper's octoberfest recipe in a split batch, between Wy 860 (Munich Helles) and Rogue PacMan (harvested from a bottle). They're conditioning until April, so I can't give a final verdict, but the gravity samples were different.

Does pacman count as neutral? I don't have much experience with it yet. I have done split batches between diffferent lager strains and am not sure if there even is such a thing as neutral yeast.

It would be great if you can post your results in april. How different the gravity were?

I don't have any experience with pacman but I have read it's considered neutral so that's a good comparison. What was the fermentation temperature and conditioning temperature?

 

[skw]

Gravity was identical, at least as far as I could measure it - my hydrometer is not very precise. I let PacMan ferment at 14C, WLP 860 at 9C (both ambient temperatures measured by stick-on thermometers on the fermenters). I don't have temperature control, but a root cellar and a basement workshop that hold their temperatures somewhat reliably.

PacMan was reptiched from slurry, WLP 860 was propagated from saline. I can't give exact pitching rates, but they were generous and I aerated generously with filtered air. At bottling time, they were both clean and free of any faults that I could detect, but they seemed different. I'll try and remember in April - this is the batch reserved to celebrate the birth of our first child, so I'm not going to touch it until then, not even in the name of science.

 

[Samuelouellette]

Gravity was identical, at least as far as I could measure it - my hydrometer is not very precise. I let PacMan ferment at 14C, WLP 860 at 9C (both ambient temperatures measured by stick-on thermometers on the fermenters). I don't have temperature control, but a root cellar and a basement workshop that hold their temperatures somewhat reliably.

PacMan was reptiched from slurry, WLP 860 was propagated from saline. I can't give exact pitching rates, but they were generous and I aerated generously with filtered air. At bottling time, they were both clean and free of any faults that I could detect, but they seemed different. I'll try and remember in April - this is the batch reserved to celebrate the birth of our first child, so I'm not going to touch it until then, not even in the name of science.

That should be a good comparison between the two.

Congrats on for the anniversary of your frist child (a bit early I know!) and dont worry for the name of science, enjoy your brew! PROST!

 

[skw]

I promised I'd be back - and here I am. PacMan and WLP 860 make two different beers, simple as that. I guess ideally one would do a three-way split (or more), where one as different lager yeasts and one ale yeast, then let the tasters pick which one they think is the ale yeast. My completely biased self-test says however, an Octoberfest with PacMan tastes like an ale to me, there's something about mouthfeel and fruityness that the lager version doesn't have.

 

[Samuelouellette]

I promised I'd be back - and here I am. PacMan and WLP 860 make two different beers, simple as that. I guess ideally one would do a three-way split (or more), where one as different lager yeasts and one ale yeast, then let the tasters pick which one they think is the ale yeast. My completely biased self-test says however, an Octoberfest with PacMan tastes like an ale to me, there's something about mouthfeel and fruityness that the lager version doesn't have.

Thank you SKW, I appreciate you remembered to report back and I hope you enjoyed your brew for the celebration of your frist child! .

 

[Transamguy77]

I would like to try a lager vs ale test but I will say I have done an S05 and a 1056 side by side and I prefer 1056, it puts the hops forward. Otherwise the same beer.

 

[Sadu]

I have a SMaSH pilsner that I did a split batch on, using 34/70 lager and US-05 ale. The ale is already bottled, the lager is still lagering. I'm planning to do a blind tasting once they are both ready and see if my friends and I can pick the difference. Will report back on how it goes.

 

[g-star]

This really isn't even debatable; there is clearly a difference in the final product when fermenting the same wort with ale or lager yeast. They are two different species, and behave differently with respect to the final flavor profile. This has been proven out by professionals and scientific inquiry for the last 200 years.

Some guy with a blog does one uncontrolled experiment and all of the sudden we're going to throw this knowledge out the window?

 

[Sadu]

This really isn't even debatable; there is clearly a difference in the final product when fermenting the same wort with ale or lager yeast. They are two different species, and behave differently with respect to the final flavor profile. This has been proven out by professionals and scientific inquiry for the last 200 years.

Some guy with a blog does one uncontrolled experiment and all of the sudden we're going to throw this knowledge out the window?

I tend to disagree. I'm interested to know if I can tell the difference, and whether I prefer one or the other, and if the lager tastes better then whether it's enough of a difference to warrant spending money on coolers and fridges.

I'm sure there are differences, but what matters is which one I prefer. A split batch is a great way to figure out what works for your own tastes. That's something that nobody else can answer.