DFH 120 minute clone

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scottland

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So do you feel that the more nose was due to higher carbonation?
Also both the 60 and 90 clones i have done use the thomas faucet amber malt. Do you think 1.5# instead of the victory and crystal would work?
Amber malt: Yes. that would be even closer to the real thing. The victory/crystal works fine because it's such a small percentage of the final product. With a beer this intense, the subtle differences get lost.

Hop aroma: I'm not sure. I think a little more carbonation would have helped, but I don't think it would have made a huge difference. I think the ABV was what made the big change.

With such a simple grain bill, is it possible to brew this with malt extract? Or is it a silly question for such a complex beer?
The only challenge is, it would be very hard to get this beer to attenuate enough. Unless you know of some extract that attenuates very well. When I brewed it all-grain, I mashed the grains at a very low temp (147*) because that produces a more fermentable wort. With extract, maltsters usually shoot for the middle of the road in terms of fermentability, so you'd probably end up with a very sweet final product. Much like Sean Paxton did, or they did on brewmasters.

BTW - Love the wax cap idea, nice touch for a beer that's worth all the work!
Thanks, I appreciate it. It was pretty fun to do. I'll definitely do it again on other big beers.
 
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scottland

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Thanks for the info. Two weeks away and then the fun begins.:D
Good luck man, it's a ton of work, but looking back on it (now that I'm not having to feed a fermenter twice a day) it was a lot of fun.

Build up some huge pitches of yeast, and it should be pretty easy from there.
 

Jsmith82

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Still waiting on my hops to arrive. The Simcoe was in stock but the Amarillo wasn't so I seconded for Citra, third choice Centennial. Been waiting forever, this is ridiculous!! I have a week off at the end of the month, I was trying to plan brewing my next 120-ish concoction around that time frame so I could easily manage the additions.

They better get my hops in. If they don't, by golly I'm just going to [email protected]#$ing wait some more! lol
 
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scottland

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I think you could pull this beer off with any higher-alpha citrus hop. Centennial, Citra, CTZ, etc.

But if none of those are in stock, ya, you're kind of sol.
 

bottlebomber

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This beer is going to cause me to buy a simple keg set up... I have big kegging plans down the road, but I just don't see a way you could bottle condition this.
 
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scottland

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This beer is going to cause me to buy a simple keg set up... I have big kegging plans down the road, but I just don't see a way you could bottle condition this.
Ya, I don't see how it would be feasible.
 

Jsmith82

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This beer is going to cause me to buy a simple keg set up... I have big kegging plans down the road, but I just don't see a way you could bottle condition this.
This is the reason I'm not raising my next batch into the 20% range, more carbonation and all around a better tasting end product, I want 15% max.

On a good note, I called my supplier, they have my Simcoe and were able to get my Amarillo from another supplier which should arrive early next week so it looks like we're 120 ahoy for the last week of the month.

Hopefully... :drunk:
 

bottlebomber

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Jsmith82 said:
This is the reason I'm not raising my next batch into the 20% range, more carbonation and all around a better tasting end product, I want 15% max.
You think you could still bottle condition at 15%?
 
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scottland

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I think at that point: yes.

I think you'll have a better tasting beer at a lower ABV too. At 18%+ the alcohol just overwhelms everything else.

I'm still planning a 15% Citra/Sicmoe/Amarillo version sometime in 2012.
 

Jsmith82

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You think you could still bottle condition at 15%?
Yes, not that I'll get a ton from it but I had absolutely zilch carbonation with my original 120 batch. Taste and everything else right on the mark, color was good, etc, just the missing bubblies.. I feel with 15% I could get a suitable amount, enough to add to the enjoyment - also as Scottland pointed out, the alcohol isn't very present when you pop one of the 20%'ers open fresh out of the fridge and pour it however 5 minutes in a pint glass at room temp, those alcohol esters and tastes are quick to come say hello.
 

Embracethefunk

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I did the Paxton version back in 2009
Beer Forum • View topic - We did a Dogfish 120 clone

Most of the first 6 gallons was either bottled or consumed off draft. I;m bringing the remaining keg to a Winter Ale fest tomorrow and running it through my randall filled with Citra hops!
I did taste some last night, its probably been 6 months since my last tasting of this keg, its still a beast but has really really mellowed out. Incredible after dinner beer
 
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scottland

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Most of the first 6 gallons was either bottled or consumed off draft. I;m bringing the remaining keg to a Winter Ale fest tomorrow and running it through my randall filled with Citra hops!
That sounds good. I've got about 30 bottles left of mine. I'm planning to hold onto them for a good number of years to see how it ages.
 

beerman0001

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If my numbers are right you hit 80% Efficiency? Would you still start at 1.098 from the grain or would it be worth bumping that up a few points?
 
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scottland

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If my numbers are right you hit 80% Efficiency? Would you still start at 1.098 from the grain or would it be worth bumping that up a few points?
120 minute boil. I get like 68-70% with beers this high gravity with a 60 min boil, but with a longer boil you can sparge more and boil longer.

I'd shoot to come in around 1.100 or so from the grain. I don't think it'll be a big deal either way.
 

bottlebomber

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I wonder how dry you could really get this... even if you had let off on the sugars, do you think it could have gotten down into the teens?
 
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scottland

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I wonder how dry you could really get this... even if you had let off on the sugars, do you think it could have gotten down into the teens?
Definitely.

Im thinking 20# 2row and 1.5# thomas amber 8.5 gal boil end with 5.5. Does that sound bout right?

I normally get 82% efficiency with my 1.050 beers. If you get less than that, yes, I would use more grain.
 

pennisim

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I have a 120minute-ish beer going right now. How are you measuring the gravity of an actively fermenting beer? The krausen/bubbles/yeast make it very hard to get even an estimate. I don't want this beer to end up way too sweet with the yeast dieing off early. My thoughts are to maybe pour the wort to a pitcher, pour off krausen/bubbles, then take a reading and add sugar, then pour back.
Thanks!
 

Jsmith82

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I have a 120minute-ish beer going right now. How are you measuring the gravity of an actively fermenting beer? The krausen/bubbles/yeast make it very hard to get even an estimate. I don't want this beer to end up way too sweet with the yeast dieing off early. My thoughts are to maybe pour the wort to a pitcher, pour off krausen/bubbles, then take a reading and add sugar, then pour back.
Thanks!
The 120 is brought up to the high level of alcohol through sugar additions in decocted wort meaning you take a couple cups from the fermenter, add your sugars and hops, then pour it back in. With that decoction you can take a current gravity reading. I used beersmith to figure my projected ABV by preplanning first where I wanted the beer to finish and seperating the dextrose amount needed into the additions, and adding the sugar additions into the recipe as I added them into the beer itself IE if I added 8oz of sugar that morning, I'd boot up my beersmith 120 recipe and add 8oz of sugar to the fermentables giving me an idea or where I was currently at and where I was heading.

As far as finishing to sweet, that's really easy to do and just requires your attention to gravity detail to avoid it - once it visually by gravity number starts to slow down fermentation, slow the additions or even stop them and just feed some nutrient once or twice - management is definitely the key, well... and extremely tough being we're all at the mercy of the yeast.

Delicious hoppy rocket fuel! :ban:
 

pennisim

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What I'm having trouble with is getting a gravity reading. I tried a wine thief and this led to a huge layer of foam on top that made it impossible to get a true reading. My thoughts are possibly throwing some sanitized aluminum foil on top and throwing it in the fridge to get a reading? This may take a few hours though. Did you have any technique for collecting wort for the readings? I am using the same wort to wisk in the sugar.
 
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scottland

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What I'm having trouble with is getting a gravity reading. I tried a wine thief and this led to a huge layer of foam on top that made it impossible to get a true reading. My thoughts are possibly throwing some sanitized aluminum foil on top and throwing it in the fridge to get a reading? This may take a few hours though. Did you have any technique for collecting wort for the readings? I am using the same wort to wisk in the sugar.
Try sanitizing a turkey baster. It will let you suck wort out from underneath the foam.
 

Brad1775

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I am also making something like this, wish I had time to cronicle it, and I SHOULD.... but, I found that I can use my theif if I put my hand over the top, it doesn't let any wort into the theif until I'm below that layer.

3 days in, I'm at 1.080 started 1.100. haven't started sugar additions or anything yet.
 

cwheel

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Scottland: any comment on using the 2-row/Victory/C60 combo instead of the BYO clone of pilsner/amber malt? I just won a vial of WLP099 at a home brew club meeting last night, so I have the itch to make this over the xmas break. Wish I had the resources and time to brew 2 individual batches, with the two different grain recipes!

From some of your old posts, it seems like you went this patch because your 90 minute was so good??
 

mxracer652

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Why are you guys measuring gravity so early that you have to deal with krausen. Pitch the yeast & let them be for 4-5 days, then go see where you're at. Let that sucker get down to 1.020, then start adding dextrose. Check 2x a day & you'll know when the yeast start petering out.
 
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scottland

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Scottland: any comment on using the 2-row/Victory/C60 combo instead of the BYO clone of pilsner/amber malt? I just won a vial of WLP099 at a home brew club meeting last night, so I have the itch to make this over the xmas break. Wish I had the resources and time to brew 2 individual batches, with the two different grain recipes!

From some of your old posts, it seems like you went this patch because your 90 minute was so good??
Ya, that's exactly why I just used the same grain bill. 2-row/Amber malt is the correct grain bill. That's what DFH uses, and that's what will be the closest. In reality, it won't make much difference. It's just such a small percentage of the finished beer. Use the amber if you can find it. If you can't Victory/C60 works great. I've had success with that in a 90min recipe, but I re-brewed 90min with just amber, and it was a little closer. It was a very subtle difference in 90min, in 120min, I don't think side-by-side you'd pick it out. Definitely use 2-row though , I don't see any need to use Pilsner.

Why are you guys measuring gravity so early that you have to deal with krausen. Pitch the yeast & let them be for 4-5 days, then go see where you're at.
Because you'd be shocked at how fast WLP007 will rip through a high gravity beer, even when fermented in the low 60s. I went from 1.099 to 1.018 in like 40-50 hours, not 4-5 days. And that was at a verified wort temp of 64*


I think this thing has krausen WELL past 4-5 days.
Mine had a small krausen well past 18% ABV. I don't think the karusen fell until I hit like 20.5%
 

pennisim

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Thank you for the suggestion on putting my hand over the wine thief. I didn't have a turkey baster so this worked very well. 12lbs down, 12 to go. Unfortunately I'm unsure of the exact volume into the fermenter. I'm going to have to estimate this beer for between 10-11 gallons so the abv range could be quite large. That or I'll just count what goes into the secondary and add a gallon or so for trub loss.
 

pennisim

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Also since I added 3lbs of DME because of low efficiency, I have been thinking of adding amylase enzyme to see that it still dries out even more. Any thoughts on this?
 

seabass07

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It will convert some of the dextrines from the dme to sugars, but if the yeast have stalled it will only make your beer sweeter.
 

Bierliebhaber

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I am taking a stab at a similar project. I brewed it on Sunday. My recipe is different:

7gal batch
27 lbs NW Pale
5 lbs Munich
2 lbs Belgian Aromatic
2 lbs Flaked Rye

2 oz Columbus 90, 60, 30 min
1 oz Centennial 10 and 5 min
1 oz Nelson Sauvin 10 and 5 min

I started with 1.133 OG and the aroma was/is amazing. I combined 1728 and wlp099 yeast cakes together from a split 15 gal batch. I also made a 2 liter wlp099 starter and pitched it. I only put 4 gal. of the 7 in the fermenter; the other three I put in a corny. 30 hrs later I aerated the corny for 30min with an aquarium pump. Then, over a two hour period the corny drained into the fermenter--all the while the aquarium pump was running with the stone right at the dip tube pick up. I kept the temp at 60-62F to allow the 1728 to do the majority of work up front. 48 hrs later I have begun to warm and agitate the fermenter to 65F to get the 099 to really kick in. I still have 2 lbs of belgian candy syrup and 6-8 lbs of brown sugar to add once the initial fermentation begins to slow. I hope to reach 1.202 OG with 1.028 FG and 22.4% abv. If my attenuation is more than I anticipate, I will back off the brown sugar some.

Great thread!
Cheers
 

pennisim

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I have been doing (.046x# lbs)/volume
Is that wrong? Also which of the 2 abv formulas have u used?
 

Brad1775

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I just got to my 5th addition, 4 oz at a time, alternating between dextrose and demarrara sugar, one addition every 12 hours. so far... it's hovering at 1.055-1.047, I started additions at 1.055, also added some various hops, will add WAY more in secondary
 
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