Designing my brewery and need some help (well, a lot of help)

[rudu81]

Overall, here is what I would like my brewery to be. It will include a HLT, MLT, and BK in either a 3 tier gravity fed or single tier with pumps; although I could do a Brutus as well. My plan is to use 15 gal pots or keggles so that I can brew either 10 gal batches or partigyle 5 gal batches. There will be an IC (possibly integrated) built with a submersible pump to run ice water through the coil.

I am not sure about brewing indoors or out as Cleveland can be pretty frigid. Also, I am usure about the amount of steam released if indoors without a hood directly over the kettle.

Due to the cost associated with building a brewery, I am going to be building it in stages as my income allows. The first step is a fermentation cabinet for which I already have a side-by-side fridge (although the center wall cannot be removed). Second will be my BK, followed by the IC, MLT, and paddle.

My plan is to use my current kettle (22qt stock pot) on my stove as my HLT until I am ready to build my sculpture. I will also be using dry yeast until I am more comfortable with my process. At that point I will consider a stir plate, starters, and yeast propogation. Similarly I am going to wait to consider grain mill, refractometer, oxygenation system, conicals, kegging, and a keezer. The one caveat is that I may get some cornies to secondary/lager with in the ferm cabinet.

I am looking for advice and opinions on these first few elements of my brewery (listed below) as well as the order in which I intend to build them. Also, I would like to know if there is anything else that I should consider building initally.


Fermentation cabinet
2 temp controllers, one for each chamber
2 120mm fans to move air between chambers
1 heating element (heat bulb or similar)
Faceplate
Interior door lining
Shelving

BK
Vessel - leaning toward keggle
Temp controller and probe
Heating element - 120V?
Outlet valve
Diverter plate?

IC
Copper coil
Fittings
Submersible pump
Bucket and tubing for recirc

MLT
Round or square
steel braid vs manifold

Paddle


Thank you for your help/consideration.

 

[MalFet]

I think you're not getting much response here because your questions don't really have answers.

Build order? Once you have fermentation temp control, a big pot that you can bring to a boil, and the ability to make yeast starters, you are able to make good beer. What you want to do after that is just really a question of what your priorities are.

I think you just need to make a few decisions and then step to them from there. Gas or electric? Kegging or bottling? Cooler mash or heated recirculation mash? Then you can talk about building up in increments.

 

[hatrickwah]

MalFet is pretty spot on here. The steps you take are really a matter of what you feel comfortable with doing, and what you can afford to do. I started with a pot and some extract, move to all grain using 2 buckets, one with holes in the bottom of it. Last year I moved to 10 gallons after I picked up a keggle (legally) and built a cooler MLT. This past Christmas I made the leap, might as well have been across the Mississippi, and went to LP direct fire, single tier, 3 keggle brew setup.

Ultimately, look at what others have done, decide what you want out of this, then decide for yourself what steps to start with, and roll from there.

 

[wuertele]

Speaking of what others have done, I'm trying to make it easy to find systems to learn from with a sortable list of all-grain brewing systems here:

http://brewbot.org/breweries

You might try looking at the systems there for something you like.

 

[rudu81]

I think you're not getting much response here because your questions don't really have answers.

Ultimately, look at what others have done, decide what you want out of this, then decide for yourself what steps to start with, and roll from there.

You might try looking at the systems there for something you like.

I think that all three of you are right. There are certain parts that I know I want to head in, and others are in the gray area.

I'd phrase it this way: When I was asking questions on my first trip into one of my LHBS the guy (who I believe is the owner) said that what I do is up to me because I am the brewer. I took it as sound advice and replied that I'm not asking what to do, just to not be swinging at a pinata with my back turned toward it. With my back to it, I have no chance of hitting it. But facing it, I've at least got a shot at it.

My intent was to propose what initial steps I want to take and to see if there are flaws in my plans. Some of the side notes, admittedly, were late additions and probably could have been omitted.

Not including the actual build, does my sequence of building appear to be sound?

Ferm chamber
BK
IC
MLT
Paddle

Thanks!

 

[motorbrewer]

maybe I'm missing something in your question, but you're gonna need all of done before you brew so I don't see any significance of build order. I started with a nice BK (best Christmas present ever!) doing extract/partial grain while I worked on my build - ended up taking over 6 months as I changed my mind a couple of times...but I ended up with a decent 10GAL all electric, pump driven HERMS.

 

[rudu81]

maybe I'm missing something in your question, but you're gonna need all of done before you brew so I don't see any significance of build order.

I agree that I will need everything, but a cabinet will allow me to control temps of my extract batches I'm still brewing, and a BK will allow me to still do extract or partial mash before I can get the MLT built.

BTW, do you use your rig indoors or outdoors? And if indoors, what do you do to control the steam produced in the BK?

Thanks!

 

[stickfisher]

If you are doing extract the following order will allow you to ease into all grain. You can get into all grain faster if you go the Brew-in-a-bag route until you are able to purchase your MLT & HLT

I'm upgrading my brewery on a budget so I've been thinking about this lately.

I think you have a pretty good plan. To help reinforce your ideas, I'll offer the following.

Right or wrong, I'd go as follows:
1. Ferm. Chamber. (I've not done this yet, but after listening to an episode of Brew Strong, I moved it to the top of my list. This will improve your beer even before going all grain. I plan to follow the ebay DIY temp control thread.)
2. BK+IC+BIAB (the quicker you can do full boils, even extract, the better. You'll need an IC to chill, but not the fancy one you propose, just coil and fittings. Your water in Cleveland should be plenty cold for a few months. Get a grain bag and start brewing all grain)
3. MLT (the cheapest way would be to convert a cooler, use your current pot as an HLT and your stove inside to heat. If you are happy with BIAB for a bit, then save up for another burner and kettle if you want to go that route. Do some research on round vs rectangle, I'm sure it's been debated to death somewhere. I have a rectangle cooler with braided line and batch sparge. It works fine for me.)
4. Oxygenation/Aeration
5. Starters (growlers & tin foil (or foam stoppers) work just fine, flasks are nice since you can boil, chill, and pitch with the same vessel. Build a stir plate now or later.

4 and 5 could be switched around in my opinion. I've been doing starters for a while with growlers but plan on buying a flask and making a stir plate. I have an aeration system on my to-do list after my ferm control. I also want to upgrade my 44qt aluminum pot to a keggle. I know it's hard to not get distracted by all the fancy systems, cool gear, and homebrew porn on the internet. Don't get brewery envy. Let your system evolve as you evolve as a brewer. Your intermediate gear will not be wasted. You can always either find a use for it, sell it, or gift it to an up and coming brewer.

If you give a list of items you do have, maybe we can give some better suggestions.

 

[MalFet]

I would very strongly encourage you to get good starter production (including a stirplate) and oxygenation (or at the very least, aeration) under control before going AG.

 

[rudu81]

If you are doing extract the following order will allow you to ease into all grain. You can get into all grain faster if you go the Brew-in-a-bag route until you are able to purchase your MLT & HLT

I think you have a pretty good plan. To help reinforce your ideas, I'll offer the following.

Right or wrong, I'd go as follows:
1. Ferm. Chamber.
2. BK+IC+BIAB (the quicker you can do full boils, even extract, the better. You'll need an IC to chill, but not the fancy one you propose, just coil and fittings. Your water in Cleveland should be plenty cold for a few months. Get a grain bag and start brewing all grain)

If I could go straight from my sink I would. When I put in a new sink and faucet (before I started brewing) I got one of the nice ones with a sprayer. Good for dishes, bad for brewing. A pump at Harbor Freight is about $20, so it's not too much of a big deal for me.

3. MLT (the cheapest way would be to convert a cooler, use your current pot as an HLT and your stove inside to heat... Do some research on round vs rectangle, I'm sure it's been debated to death somewhere. I have a rectangle cooler with braided line and batch sparge. It works fine for me.)

I intend to use a cooler as it comes with insulation, and I will search for round vs rectangle and efficiency concerns. I'm leaning towards using a copper manifold.

4. Oxygenation/Aeration
5. Starters (growlers & tin foil (or foam stoppers) work just fine, flasks are nice since you can boil, chill, and pitch with the same vessel. Build a stir plate now or later.

4 and 5 could be switched around in my opinion... Let your system evolve as you evolve as a brewer. Your intermediate gear will not be wasted. You can always either find a use for it, sell it, or gift it to an up and coming brewer.

I would very strongly encourage you to get good starter production (including a stirplate) and oxygenation (or at the very least, aeration) under control before going AG.

I've been thinking that yeast starters/propagation and oxygenation systems are more advanced and more technical than where I am now and that using dry yeast was good for now.

Am I mistaken?

What are the benefits of starter production and oxygenation at this stage?

If you give a list of items you do have, maybe we can give some better suggestions.

My equipment list is:
side by side fridge (build in progress)
22qt stock pot
Auto siphon with many lengths of tubing
2 Ale Pail primaries
Bottling bucket
2 5 gal better bottles
2 5 gal ceramic vessels
1 4 gal ceramic vessel
2 1 gal fermenters

Everything else is generic to the kits available.

 

[motorbrewer]

stickfisher has a great suggested list. but if you have the money and access to a good cold water flow get a plate chiller or a counterflow chiller. I did a couple batches with a copper coil submerged in the BK and it took like 45 minutes to chill. Under 20 minutes with a plate chiller (5 GAL batches). I stuck the copper coil into the HLT and got a HERMS system.

and my setup is all electric so I brew indoors in a large entry way between garage and kitchen - open the doors and the steam spreads throughout - we like the smell....

 

[rudu81]

stickfisher has a great suggested list. but if you have the money and access to a good cold water flow get a plate chiller or a counterflow chiller.

and my setup is all electric so I brew indoors in a large entry way between garage and kitchen - open the doors and the steam spreads throughout - we like the smell....

I don't think I'll have the dough to spend on a plate chiller for a long time, which is why I plan on building an IC. My previous thought on brewing indoors was turning the windows into what you'd expect to see in a high schooler's car at make-out point

Electric brewing appeals to me, so now I have to figure out whether I am going to brave the cold or convince SWMBO to let me install a hood in the basement. Or, I could just deal with the steam in the house.

 

[itsme6582]

What are we working with? What do you have now? Anything?

I brew indoors in Cleveland. I have free heat and my apartment is usually too hot. I just open my balcony door. I imagine that in a semi protected environment (open garage) brewing with a propane burner would be doable in even the coldest weather.

The progression from basic brew kits seems to be

1. Chiller
2. Bigger BK and a propane burner for full boils
3. Yeast starters- these can be as simple as DME and yeast in a jar or as elaborate as stir plates and air stones
4. All grain path - these can be intermediate steps
a - BIAB
b - MLT using the BK and a bucket to batch sparge
c - HLT and MLT

 

[SDMBREW]

I went through my build in a real simple fashion.
1. Designed built brew frame single tier 2 pumps.
2. Modified kegs into kettles, HLT,MLT,BK
3. Build a malt mill.
4. Modified a large LME barrel for a fermenter to accomodate 12 gallon batches.
5. Modified an old fridge for a kegerator
6. Aquired 8 pin lock kegs, taps, disconnects, c02 tanks etc.
7. My friend who got me into it gave me a recipe for an IPA.
8. Brewed a few batches.
9. Drank that beer.
10. After about 10 AG batches I started using stir plates and liquid yeast strains.
11. Modified another fridge to be a ferment changer with a temperature controller.
12. Brewed lagers!

That is my 12 step program!

The enitial design and build took nearly 8 months, all the other equipment was made as needed. I suggest starting off as simply and easily as possible and as your brewing skills improve your equipment should follow along. I did'nt attempt lagers for about a year after the brewery was operational. All together 2 years into it with alot of help from friends and alot of reading and research on HBT I no longer buy beer. Unless I want to try brewing a style and want to try a notable beer for educational purposes only.

Cheers and best of luck with your build!

 

[stickfisher]

With starters you can achieve several things:
Wake up the yeast (reduce lag times)
Propagate more yeast (pitch the correct number of cells)
Strengthen cell walls (for high gravity wort)

If you are brewing average gravity beers and want to continue using the same strains of dry yeast, then starters are not necessary. Just pitch two packs of yeast if the pitch rate calculator over at mrmalty.com says to. Dry yeast is cheap and convenient, hence its popularity. If you want to branch out, have more access to yeast strains by using liquid yeast, or start brewing lagers, you'll need to create starters.

Listen to this: http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong/Brew-Strong-12-22-08-Yeast-Starters

Then go hear and listen to every single episode: http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong/Page-7

 

[rudu81]

I brew indoors in Cleveland. I imagine that in a semi protected environment (open garage) brewing with a propane burner would be doable in even the coldest weather.

I like the sound of semi-protected space. My house has a screened in porch that needs some TLC, but if I can build windows and rotate them and screens I might be able to brew there.

I suggest starting off as simply and easily as possible and as your brewing skills improve your equipment should follow along. I did'nt attempt lagers for about a year after the brewery was operational. All together 2 years into it with alot of help from friends and alot of reading and research on HBT I no longer buy beer. Unless I want to try brewing a style and want to try a notable beer for educational purposes only.

Cheers and best of luck with your build!

I like your build and progression. It's definitely along the lines of what I want to do, and also tells me that I am on the right track.

With starters you can achieve several things:
Wake up the yeast (reduce lag times)
Propagate more yeast (pitch the correct number of cells)
Strengthen cell walls (for high gravity wort)

If you are brewing average gravity beers and want to continue using the same strains of dry yeast, then starters are not necessary. Just pitch two packs of yeast if the pitch rate calculator over at mrmalty.com says to.
Listen to this: http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong/Brew-Strong-12-22-08-Yeast-Starters

Then go hear and listen to every single episode: http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong/Page-7

Thanks for the info on starters! I still think it's better for me to hone my brewing skills a bit more before trying liquid yeast, starters, propagation, etc. Mrmalty.com has already been a good resource for me, and I have that episode (at least I think I have it) on my thumb drive.

I've got almost every episode of the brewing network on my ipod in the car. It takes a while to get though them all, but I'm making slow progress. So far, I'm in Sept of year one.

 

[itsme6582]

Starters aren't as big of a deal as you might think. A complete setup might look like a biology lab but making a starter can be as simple mixing up a little DME and letting the yeast work overnight in a mason jar.

 

[rudu81]

Starters aren't as big of a deal as you might think. A complete setup might look like a biology lab but making a starter can be as simple mixing up a little DME and letting the yeast work overnight in a mason jar.

I've been imagining a lab. The yeast washing thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/ seems to be within the realm of possibility. I figured that it's more to screw up than just using dry yeast.

 

[crackhead7]

I live in Cleveland, I started brewing spring 2010. I think I know the thought process your struggling with. When I came here I was overwhelmed with the options of things to do and/or acquire for a brewery. Secondly, I am way over ambitious and want my own full scale electic brewery like Theelectricbrewery.com shows. However, I quickly realized that to get there I need to learn how to brew good beer. I would be up for meeting up w/ you for a brew day either my place or yours. My suggestion is to make sure that you buy or create equipmant that will be able to evolve with you. Like buying a really nice and large BK, making keggles( which i am in the prcess of) MLT cooler conversion, yeast washing is simple and easy I've gotten into it and my frige has many differnt strains. I have begun to branch out into freeze a bank of vials as well. Send me a PM If your interested, maybe we can share some equipment until we can afford better such an example would be we both wouldn't need to buy a grain mill.