Deep Six Brewing System - v2.0

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Jonnio

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2007
Messages
1,489
Reaction score
10
Just a side note from a legal perspective...have you been considering patents for the design? You can get patents for the current design and get new ones for subsequent modifications to the base prototype. If you are considering selling this thing (which you definitely should) I'd consider getting them sooner rather than later (if you haven't already), especially since you are sharing information on a public forum. Would hate to see someone profit from your ideas, albeit you haven't shared significant detail.

Again, congrats on this project! It's amazing.
I am not a patent attorney, but I think the US is first to invent, not first to patent. Basically if he does have something that is unique enough to actually patent (so far it appears to just be a kick ass HERMS setup with copyrightable software) then posting on the forum might be the best way to prove first invention.
 

LabJackSupport

New Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Have you taken a look at the LAB-Tick amplifier board for the Ph probe?, looks like the input impedance would work, just need to bias the Ph probe with +2.5 V to get full range output. As to probe maintenace and signal loss from electrolyte dilution you can prolong the life of the probe by storing the glass element in the concentrated electrolyte solution when not in use.
We sell a couple instrumentation amplifiers (EI-1040 and LJTick-InAmp), but they both have 10s of nA of bias current which might be too much for pH probes. 10 nA is low, but a pH probe needs really low bias currents. If the probe has 100 Mohm of resistance, then 10 nA trying to go through it will cause a 1 volt offset. Perhaps that offset would be consistent enough that you can calibrate it out, but I am not sure.

I would get something specifically made for pH. Have not tried the following, but it looks reasonable:

Electrode Amplifier
 
OP
John Beere

John Beere

Deep Six Brewing Co.
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
71
Location
Valdosta, GA
After talking with their support staff, they didn't seem to think it had enough amplification. I'm at you EE's mercy on this one... I haven't talked price with Full Throttle yet, but I think he might have a good solution.

I have put off the PH module just trying to get everything else wrapped up... still working on the algorithm which holds the mash temp. My goal with it is to maintain +- .25 differential of any set point.
 
OP
John Beere

John Beere

Deep Six Brewing Co.
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
71
Location
Valdosta, GA
We sell a couple instrumentation amplifiers (EI-1040 and LJTick-InAmp), but they both have 10s of nA of bias current which might be too much for pH probes. 10 nA is low, but a pH probe needs really low bias currents. If the probe has 100 Mohm of resistance, then 10 nA trying to go through it will cause a 1 volt offset. Perhaps that offset would be consistent enough that you can calibrate it out, but I am not sure.

I would get something specifically made for pH. Have not tried the following, but it looks reasonable:

Electrode Amplifier
Welcome aboard! I'll have you guys homebrewing before you know it... heh
 

kladue

Senior Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Messages
2,318
Reaction score
60
Location
Turner, Oregon
The electrode amplifier looks like the right device for the job with out a lot of tinkering. Have you implemented a PID program in your code for HEX control?, found one written in C+ but have not had a chance to run it yet.
 
OP
John Beere

John Beere

Deep Six Brewing Co.
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
71
Location
Valdosta, GA
Have you implemented a PID program in your code for HEX control?, found one written in C+ but have not had a chance to run it yet.
For better or worse, I started this app without any preconceptions of how existing PIDs worked... so I'm sure the mechanics of how mine works doesn't follow anything else. The master config for the app allows you to set the differentials for your rig and the application controls the heat based on these settings. It has a mash differential and a HEX differential. The HEX differential is what I've refer to as "Scorch Guard" as it keeps the HEX from going over the current mash temp + hex differential.
 

bakins

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
730
Reaction score
7
Location
West Georgia
Just a side note from a legal perspective...have you been considering patents for the design?
Not sure he can patent anything. He can copyright the software. This is very similar to several systems that have been posted on here before (a few steam ones). He has polished it up very nicely, but lots of examples of "prior art." Also, in a lot of ways it's very similar to a brewmagic, as well. Now if a complete system costs alot less than a brew magic, I'm sure he'd have plenty of customers.

I started mocking up some software today. Looks like crap compared to John's, but could easily replace my 2 PID's for my current electric brew cart. Hardest part is writing a gui - I'm a systems guy - the other stuff is pretty straight forward on an Arduino. The labjack stuff is just too "closed" for me.

Good luck John! Keeping the price down, IMO, is key to your success.
 

kladue

Senior Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Messages
2,318
Reaction score
60
Location
Turner, Oregon
I am sure by now that John has discovered that the hardware assembly and wiring was the easy part, building the code and GUI's is the long and tedious part of the system development.
 

Kauai_Kahuna

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
2,275
Reaction score
19
Location
Hawaii
OK, count me in as a very interested person, but I may have to wait till I can buy a house to fit this beast into. Hey maybe by version 3.1
 

Damonic

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 19, 2008
Messages
430
Reaction score
3
Location
Chicagoland
I am sure by now that John has discovered that the hardware assembly and wiring was the easy part, building the code and GUI's is the long and tedious part of the system development.
Exactly, most HB'ers are also DIY'ers and will most likely want to customize their own rig anyway. I would think the best bet would be for John to sell the software solution as that's where his blood sweat and tears have been spent. +1 for keeping it affordable for us poor schmucks! ;)
 

thataintchicken

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2008
Messages
8,538
Reaction score
1,370
Location
Lewiston
It's Beautiful.
The interface is well laid out. One of my buddies is a GUI programmer for iTunes... He agrees. :rockin:
 
OP
John Beere

John Beere

Deep Six Brewing Co.
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
71
Location
Valdosta, GA
It's Beautiful.
The interface is well laid out. One of my buddies is a GUI programmer for iTunes... He agrees. :rockin:
Well there's a complement if I've ever read one... woot!

FYI, I should be over the hump of my personal issues here shortly and plan on running another test of the main temp algorithm here in the next day or two...
 

Funkenjaeger

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,595
Reaction score
18
Location
Nashua, NH
Beautiful. You've definitely raised the bar in the field of DIY brewing rigs...

This is definitely a huge inspiration! I'm just getting started with the whole HERMS thing, and your project gives me great ideas about where I will want to go with mine when I am finally done being a broke college student...

:mug:
 

explosivebeer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
437
Reaction score
3
Location
Tacoma, WA
John your beautiful system is definitely an inspiration. Thanks for taking the time to share it with us. Good luck working out the kinks and figuring out what you want to do with it (aside from the obvious). Big cheers to you.
 
OP
John Beere

John Beere

Deep Six Brewing Co.
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
71
Location
Valdosta, GA
I'm finally on the brink of getting back on track. It is hard to believe its been a month since I went AWOL... life got in the way big-time. I'm running another test of the software right now - and feel that this could very well be the final version of the HEX algorithm. I will report back later with the results.

I did a little work to my rig by insulating the hoses. I just used water pipe insulation and wrapped that in electrical tape to help hold the shape. Here is an updated photo of my rig.
 

Chad

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
1,026
Reaction score
12
Location
Apex, NC
I'm finally on the brink of getting back on track. It is hard to believe its been a month since I went AWOL... life got in the way big-time. I'm running another test of the software right now - and feel that this could very well be the final version of the HEX algorithm. I will report back later with the results.

I did a little work to my rig by insulating the hoses. I just used water pipe insulation and wrapped that in electrical tape to help hold the shape. Here is an updated photo of my rig.
Wow, kegs in bondage! Now that's some pron!

Chad
 

Beards Brews

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2008
Messages
233
Reaction score
1
Location
Northeast Georgia
Welcome back...that is one sick set up. It makes my redneck shelving & cooler setup look prehistoric.

I don't know if I could ever wrap my head around that system, much less build it. I am simply amazed at your ability.:rockin::mug:
 

DeadYetiBrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
1,107
Reaction score
16
Location
Memphis, TN
Have you been thinking about having it adaptable for bigger systems and maybe trying to sell the software/interface to craft/microbrewers?
 
OP
John Beere

John Beere

Deep Six Brewing Co.
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
71
Location
Valdosta, GA
OK, I have the HEX algorithm in the bag. This chart is from a test I just ran a few mins ago. You can see in the chart that the latest version of the algorithm auto adjusts itself as the temp gets closer to the set point to keep it from ramping too high. The Mash Tun had six gallons of water and the HEX/HLT had 15 gallons of water. It was around 120 degrees at the start due to an earlier test I ran. The dip at 126 is due to a 1 minute protein rest I had programmed into it before ramping to 153. You can't see it clearly in the chart, but it held 153 for an entire hour with less than +-.2 degrees.

 
OP
John Beere

John Beere

Deep Six Brewing Co.
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
71
Location
Valdosta, GA
Do you employ the HLT stirrer in an effort to maintain heat distribution evenly throughout the entire HLT?
Yes. The thermowell for the temperature probe is near the bottom... the HERMs coil is near the top. As you suspected, stirring the water helps distribute the heat more evenly throughout the HLT.
 

ThickHead

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
967
Reaction score
48
Yes. The thermowell for the temperature probe is near the bottom... the HERMs coil is near the top. As you suspected, stirring the water helps distribute the heat more evenly throughout the HLT.
Thanks, I hate to ask the obvious but I am very new to these designs and there seem to be endless variations as a result of individual preference as well as much individual trial and error.

Additionally, your DIY threads here on HBT are inspirational to say the least. Thanks for sharing. You may get a few PM questions from me time to time. I hope you dont mind. :D

Cheers:mug:
 

CrookedChris

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
56
Reaction score
1
Location
Illinois
Yes. The thermowell for the temperature probe is near the bottom... the HERMs coil is near the top. As you suspected, stirring the water helps distribute the heat more evenly throughout the HLT.
Keeping the water moving helps with heat transfer as well.
 

nyer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
936
Reaction score
26
Location
Merritt Island
Can you tell me or point me to a thread that shows what you are using for insulation on your keggle? I have searched and read thru all kinds of old posts and still can't find the answer.
 

ThickHead

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
967
Reaction score
48
Yes. The thermowell for the temperature probe is near the bottom... the HERMs coil is near the top. As you suspected, stirring the water helps distribute the heat more evenly throughout the HLT.
What type of blade do you use on the end of the HLT stirrer and at what depth is it situated? I suppose my assumption is that pulling the higher temperature water from nearest the heating element up through the heat exchanger would produce the most efficient circulation. But you know what they say about assuming....:D
 
OP
John Beere

John Beere

Deep Six Brewing Co.
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
71
Location
Valdosta, GA
Can you tell me or point me to a thread that shows what you are using for insulation on your keggle? I have searched and read thru all kinds of old posts and still can't find the answer.
It is rolls of 1/8" thick insulated tape I found at Home Depot. It took several rolls per keg, but was worth it imo...
 
OP
John Beere

John Beere

Deep Six Brewing Co.
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
71
Location
Valdosta, GA
What type of blade do you use on the end of the HLT stirrer and at what depth is it situated? I suppose my assumption is that pulling the higher temperature water from nearest the heating element up through the heat exchanger would produce the most efficient circulation. But you know what they say about assuming....:D
Here is a photo looking down into the HEX/HLT. The stirrer is down near bottom of the heating element and has just enough force to break the surface tension of the water.



*EDIT* - here is a photo of the blade. I blatently stole the idea from "The Pol". You can read more about my experimentation here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/todays-experiment-hlt-stirrer-77619/
 

enderwig

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
1,433
Reaction score
9
Location
Dickinson Texas
<sarcasm>

When I first saw the pics of your rig in progress, I drooled and wanted one, :rockin: then I realized that I would still have to mill the grain myself, an egregious oversight, so nevermind, no longer interested. :mad:

</sarcasm>

For real, that is a truly awesome rig!
 

Chriso

Broken Robot Brewing Co.
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
4,619
Reaction score
88
Location
Someplace
Enderwig. Ain't you seen JB's grain mill? It's just as sexxxy as the rest of this! :p

Now true, You'd have to pour the grain in manually! That's a lot of work! ;)
 

ThickHead

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
967
Reaction score
48
Here is a photo looking down into the HEX/HLT. The stirrer is down near bottom of the heating element and has just enough force to break the surface tension of the water.

Excellent images and thanks for the HLT stirrer thread link, together they answered every question I had (in regard to the stirrer).

However, everytime I see a picture of your rig from a new angle I seem to have more questions. The pump to the left of your HLT behind your touch screen...what are you pumping with that? Am I missing something?
 
OP
John Beere

John Beere

Deep Six Brewing Co.
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
71
Location
Valdosta, GA
Excellent images and thanks for the HLT stirrer thread link, together they answered every question I had (in regard to the stirrer).

However, everytime I see a picture of your rig from a new angle I seem to have more questions. The pump to the left of your HLT behind your touch screen...what are you pumping with that? Am I missing something?
No pumps were hidden in the making of this rig. It was just sitting there as I had taken it off to paint the stand... heh
 

ThickHead

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
967
Reaction score
48
No pumps were hidden in the making of this rig. It was just sitting there as I had taken it off to paint the stand... heh
Thanks for the clarification...I was scratching my head there for a minute.
 

ThickHead

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
967
Reaction score
48
JB

Have you ever given thought to plumbing a "whirlpool effect" using a small external pump rather than the fan to circulate your HLT? I am interested in your thoughts on the matter even if you have not.
 

korndog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
1,119
Reaction score
9
Location
westlake village, ca
Very nice work here. I don't know how I missed this thread earlier. If I recall correctly, you pump into a separate boil kettle, but I would be interested in varying this project for a two kettle system. Have you given any thought to cross circulation flow control and monitoring? How would electric elements play out in such a configuration vis-a-vis scorch control, etc.? Obviously it would require two pumps, but I wonder if the HLT with HERMS can be used for kettle/Cooling functions. Additionally, the stirrer could be beefed up to be a whirlpooler with a stainless agitator like a milk frother.

Agree, the GUI looks very nice.
 

JeffNYC

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2006
Messages
234
Reaction score
1
Any thought of putting together a parts list and instructions like the Brutus 10?
 
OP
John Beere

John Beere

Deep Six Brewing Co.
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
71
Location
Valdosta, GA
JB

Have you ever given thought to plumbing a "whirlpool effect" using a small external pump rather than the fan to circulate your HLT? I am interested in your thoughts on the matter even if you have not.
I did think about that, but the gear motor and stir stick were cheaper than another march pump...
 
OP
John Beere

John Beere

Deep Six Brewing Co.
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
71
Location
Valdosta, GA
OK... for the first time in over a month, I have some time to myself - heading out to put my updated rig through it's inaugural run! I'm just going to do something simple but will do a step mash anyway just to try it out. I'll see about taking some video of the system in action and post it later on today...
 

ThickHead

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
967
Reaction score
48
I did think about that, but the gear motor and stir stick were cheaper than another march pump...
I am currently working on a completely overkill HLT/HEX design that will include an externally plumbed, multi-jet circulation system. It will be a fun project. But yeah, from a cost standpoint, there are definately more economical solutions. :p
 
Top