Deep clean of heavily used plate chiller

[Hiphop]

Hey all, about a month ago I bought a heavily used 40 plate chiller on Craigslist. I thought I was getting a great deal on a 40 plate chiller for 50 bucks but when I got home and took a flash light inside I could see the wort in was almost completely clogged. I mean I doubt this guy has ever even used any type of hop screen/hop bag. The first few “boogers” that I pulled out with long tweezers were about the size of my thumb. I have worked in the medical field for the last decade and see nasty stuff daily but this was next level nasty. I built a quick disconnect back flush connector that connects to my garden hose or I can quick connect it with my chugger pump from my keggle. I flushed/back flushed this thing with probably a good 75-100 or so gallons of garden hose water and boiling water, multiple soaks in hot PBW or hot oxyclean, boiled for two hours, oven baked at 400 degrees for an hour (multiple times with flushing and back flushing between). I even put it in my pressure cooker and cooked it. I have even attached a 1inch bottle brush attached to my drill to clean the wort in and wort out channels and I’m still getting small bits of vegetable mater occasionally coming out. I have ran boiling water through it for over an hour so I’m not worried about anything growing just don’t want any of this old hop matter getting in future brews. The flow is not effected at all so I know that I got most of it out but my question is does anyone have any idea on how to get the last bit out. (I know, I know, I know you switched to a counter flow chiller for this reason or the best cleaning is preventing the plate chiller from getting plant matter in it. You are the fiftieth person to tell me this but it doesn’t help me.) I’m too cheap to throw this one away and dedicated to completely cleaning this plate chiller so I’m willing to try pretty much anything. I have tested to see how well it works and it will chill 15 gallons of boiling water to 60 degrees in less than five min with just a garden hose so I really really want to save/fix this plate chiller. I have read some forums about being careful with certain chemicals in the plate chiller due to the plates degrading and possible ruining the plate chiller. Does anyone have any idea on how to deep clean and save this plate chiller? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated

 

[shoengine]

I don't have much experience with plate chillers. However, Nothing, ever, will stand up to enough flowing water, especially with some extra help from cleaning agents. But it'll need time, and I wouldn't be happy with it until I recirculated water through it for days, and once the water continues to be clean, I could see using it.

But what I would really do is take it to the dump and toss it in the metal recycle pile.

 

[Qhrumphf]

If breaking it apart isn't an option (not exactly a fun one anyway), circulating hot sodium hydroxide solution (ie caustic) will probably do it. Now I would be VERY careful doing that.

That said, with how bad it sounds from your description I still wouldn't trust it without a full break down. Sounds like it's so fubar'ed that I would just scrap it.

 

[cubalz]

Chuck it and chalk it up as a life lesson.

 

[Hiphop]

Again, I am not going to “chuck it, trash it, or take it to the dump” The chiller doesn’t come apart. After days of cleaning it 95-99.9% of the crap that was in is cleaned out. I could run 10 gallons through it and nothing but clean water comes out. It’s only after I bake it or soak it in pbw overnight or scrub wort channel with brush that anything comes out. I don’t know if I didn’t describe enough in the original post the current condition of the plate chiller after days of cleaning but again clear water with the rare occasional small black chunk when back flushing. I will chalk it up to misunderstand or me not being descriptive enough but just saying if you guys toss your brewing equipment when it’s this condition I would gladly take it. Picture below is water collected midstream from wort out port.

 

[cubalz]

Again, I am not going to “chuck it, trash it, or take it to the dump” The chiller doesn’t come apart. After days of cleaning it 95-99.9% of the crap that was in is cleaned out. I could run 10 gallons through it and nothing but clean water comes out. It’s only after I bake it or soak it in pbw overnight or scrub wort channel with brush that anything comes out. I don’t know if I didn’t describe enough in the original post the current condition of the plate chiller after days of cleaning but again clear water with the rare occasional small black chunk when back flushing. I will chalk it up to misunderstand or me not being descriptive enough but just saying if you guys toss your brewing equipment when it’s this condition I would gladly take it. Picture below is water collected midstream from wort out port.

I should have elaborated more in my response. What I meant to say is that instead of jeopardizing infections in any batches from residue left in that plate chiller, I would rather just chuck it. Ingredients are not cheap. Again, this is what "I" would do. Plate chillers are notoriously hard to clean especially when they are left as grungy as yours was at purchase.

 

[shoengine]

Hey, no judgement. I have extremely rigorous requirements for the cleanliness of my cold side. Since I would never be able to verify that it is clean, I wouldn't use it. It is simply not worth the risk.

That is probably why I've never been tempted to get a plate chiller in the first place. Sorry, wish I could help you more.

 

[Hiphop]

I really really don’t think it would cause an infection after the multiple run throughs with boiling water and the multiple oven bakes. I doubt there is anything living inside of the plate chiller. It’s more of the physical debris that could possibly end up in my beer. I am just not the fan of “floaties” in my beer. Only reason I don’t brew more hazy NEIPAs. It just reminds me of when I look at my water after one of my kids takes a sip.

 

[Pan_Kotsky]

These are definitely interesting suggestions. What do you think your brand new chiller would look like inside after the first use despite any hop restrainers you may be using? Have you seen that all organic matter from the bottom of the kettle going inside of the chiller and do you really think there is a way to get it 100% out?

To the OP I would suggest to relax and use your chiller. you have done enough. The only thing I do to my chiller every time I use it is boiling for ~2 hours in 2% baking soda solution. All the organic matter that comes out of chiller to your fermenter (no mater yours or inherited from the chiller) will be precipitated by the end of fermentation.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I just ran into the same thing I found my chiller in the attic and decided to clean it up and use it, come to find out it's been up there baking a batch of beer still left inside for 4 years so I ran hot pbw through it and still got chunks, so a ran another with 20 gallons of water recirculating for an hour and it turned the water tan, I'm wondering if it's even worth it I obviously got mad a chucked up up there for a reason lol

 

[Hiphop]

I just ran into the same thing I found my chiller in the attic and decided to clean it up and use it, come to find out it's been up there baking a batch of beer still left inside for 4 years so I ran hot pbw through it and still got chunks, so a ran another with 20 gallons of water recirculating for an hour and it turned the water tan, I'm wondering if it's even worth it I obviously got mad a chucked up up there for a reason lol

You could always sell it to some chump for $50 bucks and then it’s not your problem anymore. Take that money and put it aside for a new one

 

[day_trippr]

Up the voltage: bake it at 500°F or even whatever self-cleaning temperature your oven uses (wth, it's a hunk of metal, what's going to happen?) for a couple/few hours (or a self-cleaning cycle) and see what happens. That ought to ash TF out of anything left in there and a good flushing in both directions should clear out the ash...

Cheers!

 

[acidrain]

Stop baking it! It makes it really hard for the Lye to work, which it does very well.
Get some Red Devil Lye, mix about a cup into two gallons of warm water.
If you're in the medical field, you know all the safety stuff.
When you add the lye, it will increase in temperature. Do this in a place where boiling lye will not ruin stuff. Be ready to run.
Submerge the plate chiller, rotating it to get as much air out as you can.
After it cools down, you can re-heat it in a pot... just not an aluminum one, or there will be nothing left in a very short period of time.
Rinse and repeat moving the chiller to different angles.
This will completely melt any organics including proteins. I've done it many times.

 

[day_trippr]

Does that hot lye treatment risk copper brazing?

Cheers!

 

[Hiphop]

Stop baking it! It makes it really hard for the Lye to work, which it does very well.
Get some Red Devil Lye, mix about a cup into two gallons of warm water.
If you're in the medical field, you know all the safety stuff.
When you add the lye, it will increase in temperature. Do this in a place where boiling lye will not ruin stuff. Be ready to run.
Submerge the plate chiller, rotating it to get as much air out as you can.
After it cools down, you can re-heat it in a pot... just not an aluminum one, or there will be nothing left in a very short period of time.
Rinse and repeat moving the chiller to different angles.
This will completely melt any organics including proteins. I've done it many times.

Stop baking it! It makes it really hard for the Lye to work, which it does very well.
Get some Red Devil Lye, mix about a cup into two gallons of warm water.
If you're in the medical field, you know all the safety stuff.
When you add the lye, it will increase in temperature. Do this in a place where boiling lye will not ruin stuff. Be ready to run.
Submerge the plate chiller, rotating it to get as much air out as you can.
After it cools down, you can re-heat it in a pot... just not an aluminum one, or there will be nothing left in a very short period of time.
Rinse and repeat moving the chiller to different angles.
This will completely melt any organics including proteins. I've done it many times.

Thank you so much for the advice! I think you answered my exact question and I might try out the lye. A few quick questions about the process. I don’t think it’s a sugar issue which after doing research would be the #1 reason not to bake it more and it being more of a hops issue. That being said would you still not recommend the oven on the cleaning cycle if it’s mostly hops? Two best answers so far is yours and turning the oven on the cleaning cycle. So Safety wise when you say run during the procedure what do you mean? I am guessing a reaction with water and sodium? I know it’s super corrosive so what type of gloves? I’m reading about using lye to clean and people talk about the lye dissolving the copper? What’s your thoughts about this? Should I do this in a old scratched plastic brewing bucket or metal pot? Your help is greatly appreciated.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I mean not like I suggested sodium hydroxide ie caustic ie lye already

For what its worth, soaking with lye will do less than recirculating with it. Turbulence = mechanical action = more better clean than static soak.

Additionally, at this point it's less likely to be hop matter and more likely to be protein scale.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Also, I am not a metallurgist so take for what it's worth but I *think* it's ok for copper.

Also, use a 1-2% w/w solution, and for the love of god chemical gloves, goggles, nowhere near children/pets, and safety first.

 

[Qhrumphf]

If you wanna be smart about it, if you can get a caustic beer line cleaner, that's basically the same stuff. I don't know offhand how easy they are to get at home (I know many line cleaners marketed for homebrewers/home use are non-caustic). The important thing is either sodium or potassium hydroxide as the active agent.

 

[Hiphop]

Soooooo I ended up doing a bad ish thing....placed it in the oven and set it for the cleaning mode. One of two things are gonna happen. One you all were right and it’s gonna be protein and it’s gonna be a bitc* to clean after or I just completely ruined it. Or everything will turn to ash in a few hours.

So thirty min in..... and I see a glow in the oven. I start to thing red hot metal and...
“Wort in” is on Fire like a candle. Not a quick flame but like 5 solid min of flame coming out. Sorry about the crummy pic. Hard to get good picture of it. I’m really hoping it was the plumbers tape I wrapped the heads in or whatever was in the chiller but I am really really really regretting putting it in the oven. From what I can tell the paper instruction part on the top is completely gone. Updated to follow in about 2.5 hours.

 

[gnef]

well, I hope it works out ok for you. For intense cleaning, I would have the same recommendation of the caustic solution heated and circulated, rinsed, and then nitric acid circulated as well. This is all nasty stuff though, so if you go this route, make sure to take proper precautions.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

this is what I was using, and the filter got clogged way too much for my patients, had a digital temp probe with that display for the wort out

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I would soak it once again in the cleaner of your choice, then use a brush similar to this https://www.amazon.com/UEETEK-Stainless-Flexible-Cleaning-Canister/ (if the link doesn't work search flexible aquarium tube brush) the remaining matter will be softened then a brush like this is likely to get past the middle to move the stuff. Then when you rinse you should be good. (I would think) good luck. I believe that when things can be sterilized as in baking it at 400F even the "dirt" is "safe". Of course crusted on matter means things that contaminate have a place to hide from the usual sanitizing methods, leaving you to bake it every time.

Oops, didn't see the post about the oven clean temps.

 

[Hiphop]

So. I finished with the oven clean cycle with the wort chiller in it. Ups and downs. Overall I would say a success.

The pros:
It got out a bit more gunk that I didn’t know was in there
A little more piece of mind.
It’s currently running completely clear after about 5-10 gallons of hot water each way

The cons:
It completely changed the exterior of the chiller (see attached photos)
People are posting it might have “baked” on some stuff and I would need to bake every time I use.
It completed burned off the sticker saying which side is wort/water in and which side is wort/water out. I will just have to go back and look at photos to see which side is in and which side is out.

What I should have done and will do next time:
The lye treatment

So after I was done washing out all the insides of the chiller I decided to work on the outside. I picked up some barkeepers friend a few month ago to clean and protect my stainless steel keggle from rust. With a drill/metal brush wheel/steel wool/barkeepers friend I scrubbed the dickens out of the exterior of the chiller. Night and day difference as you can see in the photos. After I was done a nice wipe down with soft cloth and barkeepers friend and then into the Hot PBW for one last soak overnight. Tomorrow I will flush the chiller with 5-10 gallons of hot water. Then I will push addition 5 gallons of 1 Step or a quick flush with some Star San. Maybe in 5-6 months (1-2 brews a month) I will try the lye treatment. Thank you to all you have posted and gave advice.

 

[Radboud]

Ha! I applaud your guts to go full nuclear Leeroy Jenkins on this thing! Hope it did the trick!

 

[passedpawn]

lye (NaOH) will degrade the copper brazing inside the chiller. it's unsafe on soft metals like copper, aluminum, zinc. The only solution is to use hot PBW (which is farily caustic at a pH of 12 when mixed properly). This is all straight from John Blichmann.

I read the first post and see that you did this. So I understand why you might try the lye next. But you should consider TSP (tri sodium phosphate). You can get 1# boxes of it in the painting dept at Home Depot. It's also a caustic cleaner, but it's much safer on those soft metals. It also works well in the presence of hard water, which can interfere with cleaning. I use this a lot for cleaning my roof.

 

[Hiphop]

Updated after 12 hours of PBW being pumping through chiller.

The setup I use is an old scratched but clean brewing bucket with a really powerful pond pump attached to hose which attach to chiller which quick disconnect to each other which then flows back to each other via hose and then back into the bucket. The quick disconnects allow me to switch the hose from “wort in” to “wort out” back so I can flush and back flush each way. The pump causes the water to heat up to 140-150 degrees. (No idea how)

So I did 6hours one way and then 6hours the other. Then this morning I went to check on the pump and the hose out looks like it slipped out of the bucket onto the ground...... all the water emptied on the floor and the pump ran dry. Luckily the pump shuts off it runs dry. Still a mess to clean up.

Added more water/pbw and running it now for another 5/6 hours. Will then flush it with 5-10 gallons of water each way some time tonight

Final Updates to follow

 

[probablynotnick]

Well buddy, I applaud your efforts! I have done several projects that if I paid myself minimum wage for the labor, I could have bought 2 new ones for the same cost! It's a labor of love though (maybe slight obsession)

That sucker had better be clean by now.

 

[OG-wan Kenobi]

I bet you make better beer than the guy that sold you the chiller with that determination and his apparent sanitation habit's

 

[Hiphop]

I bet you make better beer than the guy that sold you the chiller with that determination and his apparent sanitation habit's

Ish. 90% of my brewing stuff is second hand equipment. I’m to cheap and poor to afford new stuff. I use Craigslist/Facebook/letgo/offer up to pick up pretty much anything I need to brew. Most stuff is pretty new/unused because someone did 1-2 brews and didn’t like the work it takes. Most of the time the exchange is a quick knock on the door/see the piece of equipment and then give money and go. Not even going in the house. This is probably the worst condition I have ever found but the guy was super nice. After knocking on his door he had me come in to his garage which was a super fancy set up. He showed me that it worked and we started to talk. I always ask why they are getting rid of whatever they are selling. Just in case they are like it crack or broken or something. He was like “I like to drink during my brew days and by the time I get to the point of cooling the beer I am a bit drunk and don’t feel like cleaning messing with hoses so I just run it in a steel fermentor in the fridge. Let it cool overnight and then pitch yeast in the morning.” We talked quite a bit about brewing. Find out he use to work for Coors for 20+ years. We talk about my other projects such as kegerator and he shows me his and then offers a pint of his “famous” milk stout. I am like sure, free beer and I always like tasting other people’s craft beer. Seriously some of the best milk stout I have ever had. Like dangerous good for a milk stout. Like you could have 3-4 before you get the “full” feelings 1-2 stouts usually give me. Gave me more great advice, his number and said he would love to brew with me one day (lives about an hour away). Maybe early next year I will have him down to brew

 

[shaky6]

Go to Walmart and get some TSP. Mix it up with hot water and recirculate. It's a caustic. Rinse well and then sterilize @400*, nothing will be alive in it. Filter your wort coming out and dont worry about it.

 

[Vale71]

I've had great success keeping my plate chiller spot clean using enzymatic detergents. They're quite effective while being totally non-agressive against metals. The downside is they're quite expensive but on the other hand you only need a spoonful of it so the cost per-batch is actually quite low. I don't know if you can get your hands on them in the States without buying ten pounds at a time but I think it might be worth looking into it.

 

[augiedoggy]

Again, I am not going to “chuck it, trash it, or take it to the dump” The chiller doesn’t come apart. After days of cleaning it 95-99.9% of the crap that was in is cleaned out. I could run 10 gallons through it and nothing but clean water comes out. It’s only after I bake it or soak it in pbw overnight or scrub wort channel with brush that anything comes out. I don’t know if I didn’t describe enough in the original post the current condition of the plate chiller after days of cleaning but again clear water with the rare occasional small black chunk when back flushing. I will chalk it up to misunderstand or me not being descriptive enough but just saying if you guys toss your brewing equipment when it’s this condition I would gladly take it. Picture below is water collected midstream from wort out port.

so what your saying is it actually is fine to use now but you want your cake and to eat it too? Just use it and be done worrying about it.. if you saw the pics of some of the pro plate chillers when they break them open for inspection... you might feel better.. maybe do a google search.
anyway the hops are inert matter now and as long as you sanitize with boiling wort before each use you will be fine.

btw I know some have great sucess with those large inline filters but ive had very mixed sucess myself .. most times they just plug up requiring wasted beer and removal to finish transferring. for my hop spiders or bags work best.

 

[piojo]

Does that hot lye treatment risk copper brazing?

In addition to the problem someone else listed, when unlike metals are bonded together and soaked in an electrolyte, an electrolytic cell is formed. One metal will be protected from rust (hydrogen is evolved on the surface), and the other will slowly start to oxidize (as oxygen is formed). The process is very slow, and may not be harmful depending on what metals are touching. But if I have a choice, I don't leave dissimilar metals in acid/base/salt for longer than necessary. By all means, circulate it with alkaline for as long as it needs! But don't drop it in a bucket of lye and leave for vacation.

 

[VVbrewery]

IMHO you're good to go. With everything you've done that sucker's probably cleaner than a new one. Run hot wort through it to sanitize before chilling and RDWHAH. After all that work you deserve one.

 

[ae4853t]

If you are not getting debris during normal use, then all you need to do is ensure you sterilize it before use. Hook it up to your pump 15 min before the end of boil and recirc it without the cooling water on back into the kettle. You will need to throttle the pump back with the exit valve to prevent the wort from gasping and killing your prime, and you will need to increase the energy input to maintain boil, but it will very effectively sterilize your counter flow, hoses, pump, etc no matter what is in there, given what you say is correct. I've been doing this for years and make great beer. In fact I recirc after flame out to drive the entire kettle down to pitch temp at one time.