Decoction, when to take pH reading?
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VladOfTrub
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Mash pH should be checked and adjusted before sacc rest begins. That is what the acid rest is used for during the initial steps of the decoction process.
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Ski12568
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-This would be my first decoction so I am asking questions and trying to understand the process. I only take one reading in a single infusion mash after dough in so I was thinking I would do the same with a decoction but wasn't exactly sure because of the extra steps.
-Ok, so it sounds like it is taken at the same time as a single infusion. Thank you for the help.
What would be the reason to take more than one reading?
-Ok, so it sounds like it is taken at the same time as a single infusion. Thank you for the help.
What would be the reason to take more than one reading?
Decoction can lower the mash pH. That's why braukaiser recommends starting decoctions with a mash not below 5.4
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing
VladOfTrub
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"Decoction can lower the mash pH. That's why braukaiser recommends starting decoctions with a mash not below 5.4"
The statement is too broad. His methods are schematic, only. Decoction pH is based on the conversion temperature of the enzyme being utilized at the time. Depending on the style of beer being brewed, the pH of the first decoction might be higher, to favor alpha. Later, the brewmaster might adjust pH to favor proteolytic or beta enzymes. Lower pH ranges favor beta and higher pH ranges favor alpha.
Because alpha is a strong acting enzyme, keeping the mash at a pH which limits its action can create balance.
The times when pH will drop are during the acid rest and it takes hours for it to drop, or when chemicals, sour wort or sour malt are added. The other times in the process when pH will drop are during boiling of the wort, after calcium and magnesium precipitate, and later in the fermenter.
"-Ok, so it sounds like it is taken at the same time as a single infusion."
Unless, you are doughing in with cold water, or water at a temperature at which enzymatic action doesn't kick in... No.
Establish mash pH, before dumping water on top of it, hot enough to bring on enzymatic action.
I began learning the tri-decoction method in 1987 and stuck with it. It is the only method that I have used, since that date.
When you say you are doing a single decoction, are you going to boil thick mash or are you boiling mash liquid, to stop enzymatic action and mash out?
I'm not sure what it is that you are brewing, other than it is beer. But, you might want to dough in and hold the mash at 95 to 100F and let mash pH stabilize. Then, if necessary, add sour malt to reduce pH. Reference the malt data sheet for the malt you are using, the inherent pH is usually indicated on it. After establishing pH, the mash can be boiled, without stripping tannin.
You might consider removing the first decoction as soon as pH of the main mash is in the park.
Then, after the required amount of mash is placed into the decoction kettle, raise the temperature of the decoction mash into the albumin producing range, 122 to 125F, this rest is refered to incorrectly as the protein rest. Let the mash rest at the temperature for 20 minutes. After 20 minutes goes by, begin raising the decoction mash temperature from 122-125F, up to the saccharification temperature of whatever enzyme works for whatever it is that you are brewing. Get to the higher temperature within 10 minutes if possible.
The finest lager and pils are produced by allowing the first decoction mash to convert at 155F.
Allow the decoction mash to convert, or at least, rest it for 20 minutes, minimum.
After the conversion rest is over, bring the thick mash to boiling, without scorching it. The length of time which the mash is boiled, depends on the style of beer being brewed.
Here is something to remember. When the decoction is removed from the main mash, at the time when enzymatic action is nil, it affords the brewer the time that may be needed for the mash to reach maillard and formation of mellanoidin.
Once, enzymatic action kicks in, the time clock kicks in, as well.
After the decoction mash has been boiled, it can be added back into the main mash, which is resting at 95 to 100F, to raise the temperature up to the temperature range of the enzyme that will be utilized, in order to produce whatever it is that you are brewing.
Weyermann floor malt is a good choice to go along with the decoction method. Crisp Euro-Pils is another malt suitable for decoction mashing. Euro-Pils is tougher to work with, than Weyermann floor malt. But, it is great malt for producing English style lager, using the decoction method.
Since, you have never attempted the decoction method before, you are about to see some of the interesting things that take place throughout the decoction method..... Good Luck, Stay at it, Don't get discouraged, Brew On!
The statement is too broad. His methods are schematic, only. Decoction pH is based on the conversion temperature of the enzyme being utilized at the time. Depending on the style of beer being brewed, the pH of the first decoction might be higher, to favor alpha. Later, the brewmaster might adjust pH to favor proteolytic or beta enzymes. Lower pH ranges favor beta and higher pH ranges favor alpha.
Because alpha is a strong acting enzyme, keeping the mash at a pH which limits its action can create balance.
The times when pH will drop are during the acid rest and it takes hours for it to drop, or when chemicals, sour wort or sour malt are added. The other times in the process when pH will drop are during boiling of the wort, after calcium and magnesium precipitate, and later in the fermenter.
"-Ok, so it sounds like it is taken at the same time as a single infusion."
Unless, you are doughing in with cold water, or water at a temperature at which enzymatic action doesn't kick in... No.
Establish mash pH, before dumping water on top of it, hot enough to bring on enzymatic action.
I began learning the tri-decoction method in 1987 and stuck with it. It is the only method that I have used, since that date.
When you say you are doing a single decoction, are you going to boil thick mash or are you boiling mash liquid, to stop enzymatic action and mash out?
I'm not sure what it is that you are brewing, other than it is beer. But, you might want to dough in and hold the mash at 95 to 100F and let mash pH stabilize. Then, if necessary, add sour malt to reduce pH. Reference the malt data sheet for the malt you are using, the inherent pH is usually indicated on it. After establishing pH, the mash can be boiled, without stripping tannin.
You might consider removing the first decoction as soon as pH of the main mash is in the park.
Then, after the required amount of mash is placed into the decoction kettle, raise the temperature of the decoction mash into the albumin producing range, 122 to 125F, this rest is refered to incorrectly as the protein rest. Let the mash rest at the temperature for 20 minutes. After 20 minutes goes by, begin raising the decoction mash temperature from 122-125F, up to the saccharification temperature of whatever enzyme works for whatever it is that you are brewing. Get to the higher temperature within 10 minutes if possible.
The finest lager and pils are produced by allowing the first decoction mash to convert at 155F.
Allow the decoction mash to convert, or at least, rest it for 20 minutes, minimum.
After the conversion rest is over, bring the thick mash to boiling, without scorching it. The length of time which the mash is boiled, depends on the style of beer being brewed.
Here is something to remember. When the decoction is removed from the main mash, at the time when enzymatic action is nil, it affords the brewer the time that may be needed for the mash to reach maillard and formation of mellanoidin.
Once, enzymatic action kicks in, the time clock kicks in, as well.
After the decoction mash has been boiled, it can be added back into the main mash, which is resting at 95 to 100F, to raise the temperature up to the temperature range of the enzyme that will be utilized, in order to produce whatever it is that you are brewing.
Weyermann floor malt is a good choice to go along with the decoction method. Crisp Euro-Pils is another malt suitable for decoction mashing. Euro-Pils is tougher to work with, than Weyermann floor malt. But, it is great malt for producing English style lager, using the decoction method.
Since, you have never attempted the decoction method before, you are about to see some of the interesting things that take place throughout the decoction method..... Good Luck, Stay at it, Don't get discouraged, Brew On!
All I know is that kai at braukaiser is quoting:
[Kunze, 2007] Wolfgang Kunze, Technologie Brauer und Maelzer, 9. Auflage, VLB Berlin
Do calcium and magnesium precipitate out during a decoction enough to lower pH?
Thanks for all of that info Vlad
[Kunze, 2007] Wolfgang Kunze, Technologie Brauer und Maelzer, 9. Auflage, VLB Berlin
Do calcium and magnesium precipitate out during a decoction enough to lower pH?
Thanks for all of that info Vlad
VladOfTrub
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When the brewer mentions the 5.4 pH number. It is very close to the inherent pH of German floor malt, doughed in with brewing water at 6.5 pH, after about a three hour acid rest at 95F.
To change pH to a lower value, the acid rest period will have to be lengthened, or another means will have to be used to acidify the mash.
A decoction mash can be boiled without stripping tannins when the decoction mash pH is below 5.8. However, 5.4 is better and sometimes, 5.2 is even better.
When the main mash temperature is increased to the temperature which wipes out lacto and above the temperature at which Phytas denatures; throughout the time it takes to perform a true, tri-decoction, (the liquid boiled at the end, not considered as a decoction) mash pH changes very little. The brewer will have to make adjustments, if necessary.
Run off pH can increase during sparge.
Mash pH can be lowered by using black malt.
"Do calcium and magnesium precipitate out during a decoction enough to lower pH?"
Calcium phosphate and magnesium phosphate precipitate during the acid rest, as long as Phytase hasn't been kilned out. Modern malt shows very little change in pH throughout the acid/phytic rest, because Phytase becomes destroyed during kilning. But, the inherent pH of the malt is usually suitable to start at when mashing. Another means of would need to be employed in order to reduce mash pH.
Under modified malt will show a reduction of pH during the acid rest.
There's some other crap that goes on during the Phytic rest, as well. The rest, basically, has to do with setting up an environment, which makes yeast, happy.
Something which makes the tri-decoction method unique, is that during the decoctions and during the various rest temperature's, enzymes are taken through their optimum temperature ranges and pH ranges several times. Boiling the mash does some interesting things to it, as well.
To change pH to a lower value, the acid rest period will have to be lengthened, or another means will have to be used to acidify the mash.
A decoction mash can be boiled without stripping tannins when the decoction mash pH is below 5.8. However, 5.4 is better and sometimes, 5.2 is even better.
When the main mash temperature is increased to the temperature which wipes out lacto and above the temperature at which Phytas denatures; throughout the time it takes to perform a true, tri-decoction, (the liquid boiled at the end, not considered as a decoction) mash pH changes very little. The brewer will have to make adjustments, if necessary.
Run off pH can increase during sparge.
Mash pH can be lowered by using black malt.
"Do calcium and magnesium precipitate out during a decoction enough to lower pH?"
Calcium phosphate and magnesium phosphate precipitate during the acid rest, as long as Phytase hasn't been kilned out. Modern malt shows very little change in pH throughout the acid/phytic rest, because Phytase becomes destroyed during kilning. But, the inherent pH of the malt is usually suitable to start at when mashing. Another means of would need to be employed in order to reduce mash pH.
Under modified malt will show a reduction of pH during the acid rest.
There's some other crap that goes on during the Phytic rest, as well. The rest, basically, has to do with setting up an environment, which makes yeast, happy.
Something which makes the tri-decoction method unique, is that during the decoctions and during the various rest temperature's, enzymes are taken through their optimum temperature ranges and pH ranges several times. Boiling the mash does some interesting things to it, as well.
OP
OP
Ski12568
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I got a deal on a german pilsner kit at my LHBS and decided to give decoction a try. My plan is to perform the single decoction mash schedule in BeerSmith. It shows a rest at 122F for 35 min, remove 1.55 gal mash and boil, return to mash to raise temp to 150 and rest for 45 min, heat to 168 to mash out. I might have do a double decoction because I use a cooler for a MT, in order to raise those temp. Im looking to take the pH reading right before the 122F rest.
The kit contains 9.5lbs of German pilsner malt (2 row) only.
Thank you for your help
VladOfTrub
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So, the 122F is 35 minutes long? At what point of time are you removing the decoction mash from the main mash?
Here is why I ask. If you wait the entire 35 minutes before removing the decoction mash. Starting from the time when the decoction mash is removed, until the decoction is added back into the main mash, the 122F rest period will become over extended in the main mash.
Do this. Soon as the main mash is at 122F, remove the mash for the decoction and raise the decoction mash temperature to 155F, pH at 5.5 will be good. (Pils malt will have an inherent pH 5.7 to 5.8 with distilled water) Rest the decoction mash for 15 minutes at 155F. Then, bring the decoction mash to a boil. Boil the decoction for at least 10 minutes. Then, add the boiling decoction back into the main mash in order to reach the single temperature conversion of 150F, which somehow, Mr. Beer Smith believes makes pils/lager.
After conversion, remove only the mash liquid and bring it to boiling and boil it for 10 minutes. Dump the mash liquid into the mash tun and hope that 168F is reached. Have some boiling water on stand by, just in case. There usually isn't enough volume of mash liquid to raise the main mash to 168F.
Now, here's the thing. You'll notice a layer of "mud" on top of the grain bed. The mud will form as the grain bed is settling. Let it be. If the mud is tan, sparging will not be too bad. If the mud is gray, and it very well could be with high protein, high Kolbach, Pils malt, sparging will become difficult. The gray mud is made up of gummy protein and it is waterproof. If there isn't any mud, suspect the brewing method.
I hope that you aren't batch sparging. If you are, the mud will be down the line.
Brewing the beer in the manner which I suggest, will not add any pain and suffering to the brew day. Pick up Noonan's book on brewing Lager.
Here is why I ask. If you wait the entire 35 minutes before removing the decoction mash. Starting from the time when the decoction mash is removed, until the decoction is added back into the main mash, the 122F rest period will become over extended in the main mash.
Do this. Soon as the main mash is at 122F, remove the mash for the decoction and raise the decoction mash temperature to 155F, pH at 5.5 will be good. (Pils malt will have an inherent pH 5.7 to 5.8 with distilled water) Rest the decoction mash for 15 minutes at 155F. Then, bring the decoction mash to a boil. Boil the decoction for at least 10 minutes. Then, add the boiling decoction back into the main mash in order to reach the single temperature conversion of 150F, which somehow, Mr. Beer Smith believes makes pils/lager.
After conversion, remove only the mash liquid and bring it to boiling and boil it for 10 minutes. Dump the mash liquid into the mash tun and hope that 168F is reached. Have some boiling water on stand by, just in case. There usually isn't enough volume of mash liquid to raise the main mash to 168F.
Now, here's the thing. You'll notice a layer of "mud" on top of the grain bed. The mud will form as the grain bed is settling. Let it be. If the mud is tan, sparging will not be too bad. If the mud is gray, and it very well could be with high protein, high Kolbach, Pils malt, sparging will become difficult. The gray mud is made up of gummy protein and it is waterproof. If there isn't any mud, suspect the brewing method.
I hope that you aren't batch sparging. If you are, the mud will be down the line.
Brewing the beer in the manner which I suggest, will not add any pain and suffering to the brew day. Pick up Noonan's book on brewing Lager.
OP
OP
Ski12568
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The recipe called for a mash temp of 150-152 so I just chose lower 150F. What do you think would be a better temp for that step? 148F?
Ill repeat the steps just to make sure I understand what you are suggesting:
- dough in and hit my target main mash temp of 122F
- remove the decoction and take pH reading looking for 5.5 (I will be using distilled water with 1 tsp of calcium chloride in 9.25 gal of water, lowering pH with lactic acid)
- raise decoction to 155F for 15 min then boil for 10 min
- add boiled decoction mash back to main mash to reach 150F(?) for 45 min
- remove liquid mash and boil for 10 minutes then add back to main mash to try and hit 168F, use more boiling water if needed.
I have the equipment to fly sparge so I will go that route with this batch. I haven't opened the kit yet but the yeast more than likely a dry yeast. You think it would be better to pick up some WLP830?
Thanks again
VladOfTrub
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- dough in and hit my target main mash temp of 122F
Dough in, wait 10 minutes and check pH of the main mash. If the pH of the main mash is out of range, deal with it then. Because, when you pull the decoction and check pH of the decoction, if it isn't in the pH park, you'll only have to dump it back in the tun and adjust mash pH. If the decoction pH is out of whack, the pH of the main mash is out of whack, as well. As I mentioned. Do not begin saccharification, until pH is set.
A single saccharification rest at 150 to 152F will make some kind of beer.
By changing the decoction schedule, we are beefing up the recipe and what ends up in the belly.
Use 150F as the sacc rest temperature.
Something to consider when brewing Lager and Pils. The brewing method has to be such, that wort will be produced, which has the backbone to support yeast throughout the aging process. The method which you are using won't quite reach the bar. Screwing around with the first decoction, will help. It takes a few more temperatures and decoctions to make Lager.
Use 830 with a starter. I use 802, 830 and 34/70. I have two vials of 830 and two packs of 34/70, which I will be using this weekend.
Since, you own all the stuff it takes to do a modified decoction. Why not go triple decoction? Then, you'd be able to ring the snot out of the enzymes and malt. More importantly, the beer will be cleaner and more stable. You'll find that a lot less hops will be needed.
I own a five kettle, 30 gallon Blichmann decoction system, set up for the tri-decoction method. The decoction kettle has a nine gallon capacity. The lautertun has a capacity of 20 gallons. The grain bill is always 30 pounds of base, with two pounds of sour malt, added as needed. Based on the enzyme being activated at that time, which is based on the style of beer being produced. The hops are Hallertau and Saaz, one pound of leaf per batch, three ounces are in the hopback. RO at 7.2 pH or highly filtered water at 6.5 pH is used. The system is capable of producing 22 gallons of wort. After boiling the wort past the hot break, I boil the wort for at least one hour, then I toss in the finishing hops. After boil off, kettle and system losses, 17 gallons of wort at 1053 gravity goes into the fermenter. The gravity is the same, whether the malt is Weyermann Boh Pils dark, Boh Pils light, or their standard Pils.
Keep at it, it takes time.
Dough in, wait 10 minutes and check pH of the main mash. If the pH of the main mash is out of range, deal with it then. Because, when you pull the decoction and check pH of the decoction, if it isn't in the pH park, you'll only have to dump it back in the tun and adjust mash pH. If the decoction pH is out of whack, the pH of the main mash is out of whack, as well. As I mentioned. Do not begin saccharification, until pH is set.
A single saccharification rest at 150 to 152F will make some kind of beer.
By changing the decoction schedule, we are beefing up the recipe and what ends up in the belly.
Use 150F as the sacc rest temperature.
Something to consider when brewing Lager and Pils. The brewing method has to be such, that wort will be produced, which has the backbone to support yeast throughout the aging process. The method which you are using won't quite reach the bar. Screwing around with the first decoction, will help. It takes a few more temperatures and decoctions to make Lager.
Use 830 with a starter. I use 802, 830 and 34/70. I have two vials of 830 and two packs of 34/70, which I will be using this weekend.
Since, you own all the stuff it takes to do a modified decoction. Why not go triple decoction? Then, you'd be able to ring the snot out of the enzymes and malt. More importantly, the beer will be cleaner and more stable. You'll find that a lot less hops will be needed.
I own a five kettle, 30 gallon Blichmann decoction system, set up for the tri-decoction method. The decoction kettle has a nine gallon capacity. The lautertun has a capacity of 20 gallons. The grain bill is always 30 pounds of base, with two pounds of sour malt, added as needed. Based on the enzyme being activated at that time, which is based on the style of beer being produced. The hops are Hallertau and Saaz, one pound of leaf per batch, three ounces are in the hopback. RO at 7.2 pH or highly filtered water at 6.5 pH is used. The system is capable of producing 22 gallons of wort. After boiling the wort past the hot break, I boil the wort for at least one hour, then I toss in the finishing hops. After boil off, kettle and system losses, 17 gallons of wort at 1053 gravity goes into the fermenter. The gravity is the same, whether the malt is Weyermann Boh Pils dark, Boh Pils light, or their standard Pils.
Keep at it, it takes time.
My last batch was my first decoction mash. I ended up doing an extra decoction, because I totally missed my alpha amylase temp.
I'd never seen the protein mud before, and it freaked me out, but I kept a very slow sparge running until it finished. I just put the dark lager in the secondary and in the fridge today. Can't wait for mid-May!
VladOfTrub
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CPM....BEAUTY, GREAT JOB!!!!
Yup, you have never seen protein goop on a grain bed. It ended up in the beer and you drank it.
Using a modified decoction method, produces modified beer.
Base steps for producing Lager/Pils.
Acid/Phytase/Albumin Rest 95 to 128F (Reduces pH, produces minerals and nutrient for yeast)
Proteolytic rest 130F (Reduces mash viscosity, converts beta glucan to glucose)
Beta Rest 145F (Fermentable sugar, B-Limit Dextrin Amylose)
Beta Rest 149F (Fermentable sugar, B-Limit Dextrin Amylopectin)
Alpha II rest 155F (Non-fermentable sugar, A-Limit Dextrin AmyloseAmylopectin)
Alpha I rest 160F (Non-fermentable sugar, A-Limit Dextrin Amylopectin)
Mash out 169F (Thins mash, denatures enzymes)
Yup, you have never seen protein goop on a grain bed. It ended up in the beer and you drank it.
Using a modified decoction method, produces modified beer.
Base steps for producing Lager/Pils.
Acid/Phytase/Albumin Rest 95 to 128F (Reduces pH, produces minerals and nutrient for yeast)
Proteolytic rest 130F (Reduces mash viscosity, converts beta glucan to glucose)
Beta Rest 145F (Fermentable sugar, B-Limit Dextrin Amylose)
Beta Rest 149F (Fermentable sugar, B-Limit Dextrin Amylopectin)
Alpha II rest 155F (Non-fermentable sugar, A-Limit Dextrin AmyloseAmylopectin)
Alpha I rest 160F (Non-fermentable sugar, A-Limit Dextrin Amylopectin)
Mash out 169F (Thins mash, denatures enzymes)
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Thanks for the excellent information. I'm making a pils when I get back from vacation next week. I'm currently brewing with a 20g boil kettle, and I should be able to wring out 15 gallons of wort, assuming my end of runnings pH holds.
Would my proportion of hops be approximately 12oz of each, Hallertau and Saaz? I'll still keep 3 oz of Hattertau in the hop rocket. Can I assume that hop bitterness will decrease over a longer lagering process?
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Just to update: Sorry, I misread your post, above. I used 12 oz. of Saaz for 16 gallons of wort that I boiled down to about 14 gallons; I put about 12 gallons in the fermenter and reserved 2 gallons for later use. Hop bitterness did indeed decrease over six months: by the sixth month the beer had a nice balance between hops and malt. I brought out a 5 gallon keg for an Octoberfest last weekend and my guests killed it.
