Dark Lord Clone - help with recipe/technique

[conpewter]

***New Recipe formulation, post #40

I was at Dark Lord Day '09 and had Dark lord on tap. It was the one aged in oak with vanilla beans ('08 Dark Lord). I absolutely loved it. Best beer I have ever had. So of course I want to brew it.

This recipe will be my first attempt at it. I imagine when this is done I'll tweak it to taste.


Recipe: Dark Lord
Style: Imperial Stout
TYPE: All Grain

Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 6.94 gal
Estimated OG: 1.134 SG
Estimated Color: 87.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 67.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.00 %
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

8.0 oz Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) 1.54 %
18 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) 55.60 %
2 lbs 8.0 oz Roasted Barley (500.0 SRM) 7.72 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) 4.63 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) 4.63 %
1 lbs Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) 3.09 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) 3.09 %
1 lbs Pale Chocolate Malt (200.0 SRM) 3.09 %
8.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) 1.54 %
6.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) 1.16 %

2.50 oz Magnum [14.50 %] (120 min) 74.1 IBU

During Primary
2 lbs Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) 6.18 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 4.63 %
1 lbs Molasses (80.0 SRM) Sugar 3.09 %

4.00 oz Cofeee (Kona) (Secondary 24.0 hours)
4.00 oz Oak chips - soaked in bourbon (Secondary 14.0 days)

Nottingham Yeast Cake

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 34.88 lb
----------------------------
60 min 34.84 qt of water at 164.6 F rest at 150.0 F

Est Original Gravity: 1.134 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.030 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 13.69 %
Bitterness: 74.1 IBU
Calories: 651 cal/pint
Est Color: 93.8 SRM



Notes:
------
Boiling for ~120 minutes to be able to run some sparge water through the grains

Add ground coffee to fermenter after primary fermentation is done, rack to secondary after 24 hours.

Soak oak chips in bourbon for a few weeks, add those and two split/scraped vanilla beans to secondary for ~ 2 weeks.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I measured the Final Gravity of Dark Lord last night. It was at 1.033. I let it go flat and get to room temp before measuring.

I have moved some of the fermentables to a 2 lb addtion of DME in primary as well. This way I'll be able to mash this in my 10 gallon cooler (@ 1 qt/lb)

 

[slimer]

I would use the VSS Imperial Blend 9037 that Wyeast had out last month instead of Notty.

The Pale Malt amount seems a little high to me for some reason. The Imperial Blend will attenuate lower to give a similar alcohol burn that's in the DLS.

 

[conpewter]

I would use the VSS Imperial Blend 9037 that Wyeast had out last month instead of Notty.

The Pale Malt amount seems a little high to me for some reason. The Imperial Blend will attenuate lower to give a similar alcohol burn that's in the DLS.

I've updated the original post with my actual specific gravity measurement of Dark Lord. 1.033 is high but nothing like the 1.065 I'd read. It is very very thick in the glass. It had a lot more coffee/roast aroma/taste than I remembered so I upped the roasted barley.

As for the yeast... I have gotten up to 13% alcohol with Nottingham before (for the 999 barleywine). I always hesitate to use yeast specific to high alcohol fermentations because I've heard of the fusel alcohol off flavors they can produce. Have you used the Imperial Blend? It might be worht picking it up. I'd still want to brew another beer with it first and put the Dark Lord wort on that cake.

 

[saq]

Good to see more work on this kind of recipe!
@slimer I used the Wyeast Imperial Strain in my edition, seems good so far. Check it out here My shot at Dark Lord, brewed on Dark Lord Day! - Home Brew Forums

@conpewter
I think adding the honey and molasses in at the end of the boil is a good thing, here is what I would do. If you are plan on doing a 5.5g batch, boil down until you are at about 5.2 gallons, and add the honey/molasses. That way the volume increase from adding liquids fits in with your plan. I was actually shooting for 1.16 or so @ 5.3g, and added the honey/molasses at the end and it raised my volume to 5.8g which brought me back down to 1.134. I'd also keep it simple and add the DME after the mash and before the boil so it gets dissolved and doesn't get burned.
Less opporitunities for infection/contamination the better.

 

[conpewter]

Good to see more work on this kind of recipe!
@slimer I used the Wyeast Imperial Strain in my edition, seems good so far. Check it out here My shot at Dark Lord, brewed on Dark Lord Day! - Home Brew Forums

@conpewter
I think adding the honey and molasses in at the end of the boil is a good thing, here is what I would do. If you are plan on doing a 5.5g batch, boil down until you are at about 5.2 gallons, and add the honey/molasses. That way the volume increase from adding liquids fits in with your plan. I was actually shooting for 1.16 or so @ 5.3g, and added the honey/molasses at the end and it raised my volume to 5.8g which brought me back down to 1.134. I'd also keep it simple and add the DME after the mash and before the boil so it gets dissolved and doesn't get burned.
Less opporitunities for infection/contamination the better.

I agree that I need to always be careful about infection, but I was planning on adding some of the fermentables later because I didn't want to stress the yeast with a 1.13 wort right off the bat. It would be better to work them up to it and that way they'll attenuate out better. I had planned on boiling off more than 5.5 gallons, Since I'm doing less honey/molasses I should be fine with boiling down to 5.25 as mentioned. I do plan on boiling the DME (if any is needed) before adding to the fermenter.

 

[conpewter]

Ok I brewed the first one and missed my gravity (1.104 OG from grain, with the honey and molasses it was 1.117). I also forgot the coffee addition at the end of the boil. I plan to re-brew to hit the higher gravity and maybe change it up a little

I need some more advice


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.98 gal
Estimated OG: 1.133 SG
Estimated Color: 99.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 87.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.00 %
Boil Time: 180 Minutes

Ingredients:
1 lbs Rice Hulls
20 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row)
2 lbs 8.0 oz Roasted Barley
1 lbs 8.0 oz Barley, Flaked
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
1 lbs Chocolate Malt
1 lbs Oats, Flaked
1 lbs Pale Chocolate Malt
8.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt
8.0 oz Special B Malt
2.50 oz Magnum [14.50 %] (180 min) Hops 87.6 IBU
2.00 oz American Oak cubes, medium toast - soaked in burbon
2.00 oz Cofeee (Kona) (Boil 0.0 min)
3.00 items Vanilla Beans (?)
4.00 oz Cofeee (Kona) (Primary 24.0 hours) Misc
1 lbs 8.0 oz Honey (1.0 SRM) (Primary, when fermentation slows)
8.0 oz Molasses (80.0 SRM)(Primary, when fermentation slows)
0 Pkgs Nottingham yeast cake


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 30.00 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 30.00 qt of water at 172.9 F 154.0 F

**********************************************************


I've never used vanilla beans or oak cubes before. I bought some vanilla beans at Costco, $12 for 10 beans, they come in two glass tubes 5 beans each.

When I tasted the Dark Lord (on oak/beans) at DLD the vanilla was almost overwhelming, very nice actually. I didn't get a lot of oak flavor.

I don't know how long to leave it on the oak cubes as I don't want a lot of oakiness, just a bit and some of the complexity. I was thinking of putting in 1 oz of cubes (instead of the usual 2.5 oz) and 3 vanilla beans, split and scraped. I'd leave it on those in the secondary for almost a year. I'm just not sure about leaving it on oak that long, even if it is a smaller amount.

Also since the original is aged in a bourbon barrel, I was thinking of soaking my oak cubes in bourbon for a month, then either just putting in the cubes, or the cubes and the bourbon.

View attachment DarkLordII.bsm

 

[saq]

You are going to way overdo it with the oak and vanilla bean. I would say leave the oak out for the first run as that is not used in the "regular" dark lord, only the bourbon barrel aged. Plus when oak aging with chips you only want about 3-4 weeks worth of aging.

Secondly, one vanilla bean goes a looooong way. I put a single large madagascar vanilla bean in my secondary for 2 weeks and the flavor it added was substantial, but its a volatile flavor and has faded a little bit to a more well balanced level.

My version of the beer is in a keg right now finishing up 4 weeks of bulk aging, and then its going to go in the kegorator to chill and then carbonate. I can't wait to try it.

 

[conpewter]

Nice! The usual way to use cubes (not chips) is 2.5 ounces for 2-3 months. I'm just trying to keep from racking to a tertiary. I plan on putting the coffee in the primary after 2-4 weeks of fermentation (and aging). Then transfer after a day to secondary.

You are right about the vanilla bean. It would be better to put one in and just see how it works. I have a year worth of aging to put more in if I need it.

I found it very interesting comparing the 2009 to the 2008 I had on DLD. The 2009 had a strong strong coffee/roasted flavor. I can only imagine that mellowed down a lot into what the 2008 tasted like.

Edit: oh and I am going for the bourbon barrel aged on vanilla beans version. That was just one of the most amazing beers I've ever had.

 

[conpewter]

Wyeast Imperial Blend (9093) Private Collection - Wyeast - High Gravity

This the yeast you mean? (Wyeast 9093)
Looks good, I just hope to not dry this out since I got FG reading on true Dark Lord at 1.033

 

[saq]

Thats the one I used! I hit 1.029 FG so its a pretty close. I was worried with the high mash temp I did and a lot of the flaked stuff I'd end up with a FG that was too massive. I hope to be sampling it in about 2 weeks!

 

[conpewter]

Thats the one I used! I hit 1.029 FG so its a pretty close. I was worried with the high mash temp I did and a lot of the flaked stuff I'd end up with a FG that was too massive. I hope to be sampling it in about 2 weeks!

Sounds great! When mine finishes up we'll have to arrange a trade. I know it will take a long time to age out with such a high alcohol percentage.

 

[saq]

Sounds great! When mine finishes up we'll have to arrange a trade. I know it will take a long time to age out with such a high alcohol percentage.

This is not really true, its more about the recipe than anything else. Dark Lord isn't very old when Three Floyds releases it on DLD and yet it is fantastic. Westvleteren considers their beer "done" and ready for serving when it is a mere 11 weeks old. Granted they both do improve with age, but its a subtle thing and not a dramatic thing.

 

[conpewter]

This is not really true, its more about the recipe than anything else. Dark Lord isn't very old when Three Floyds releases it on DLD and yet it is fantastic. Westvleteren considers their beer "done" and ready for serving when it is a mere 11 weeks old. Granted they both do improve with age, but its a subtle thing and not a dramatic thing.

I had a sample of the '08 vintage at DLD '09 and I also had '09. It was not a subtle thing, '08 was a knock your socks off beer, '09 was good, but the flavors were not melded, everything just seemed sharp and not complimenting each other.

 

[FailureDrill]

I scaled this down to 3.5 gallons. With a gravity this high, would it be overpitching to pitch this on to a US-05 cake from a strong dark american ale I just made?

 

[saq]

I don't think you need to worry about overpitching with this kind of beer, you are going to need every yeast cell you can get!

 

[conpewter]

I agree with saq, especially since we are not looking to get any yeast character. I think US-05 should work pretty well for this.

 

[conpewter]

I scaled this down to 3.5 gallons. With a gravity this high, would it be overpitching to pitch this on to a US-05 cake from a strong dark american ale I just made?

Just as a heads up, I'm reducing the amount of roasted barley for the next brew of this. Mine is still aging and is not carbed yet but I think it may be too much in the current recipe. Take a look at Saq's recipe for some inspiration as well

 

[saq]

How's your take coming? I'm enjoying some of mine from the keg right now. I've got a bottle of DL09 that I'm going to open up in about 3 weeks next to a bomber of my take and do a comparison.

 

[conpewter]

How's your take coming? I'm enjoying some of mine from the keg right now. I've got a bottle of DL09 that I'm going to open up in about 3 weeks next to a bomber of my take and do a comparison.

It is still in the carboy. I drew a sample the other day and I'm just under 1.040 so not as attenuated as I would like, but not too bad of attenuation considering the OG. (65% apparent attenuation) I'm thinking of using either the high gravity yeast mentioned here, or a US-05 cake next time.

I think I have some fusel alchol issues, the fermentation was upper 70's for the first 4-5 hours before it got dropped down (Forgot to put the temp probe on the carboy, so it just sat in a non-running fermentation chamber...) I also used my CFC that only got the wort down to 80 before it hit the carboy. Definitely things I'm doing right on my next version of this. I hope it will age out to be tasty, but I'm worried it wont.

 

[saq]

I'm going to try and reculture some yeast from my bottle of DL09. I think they have a particular strain that is highly alch resistant and attenuates to about 77%. The imperial blend I used was TOO attenuative, it actually brought it in line with the viscosity and mouthfeel of a "normal" RIS.

 

[ikelso]

Any idea how correct the grain bill is here? I'm wondering if three floyds might take a look at it and give you some direction if you email it to them? Considering they only release this once a year and they already have a veritable festival surrounding it, it wouldn't lose them any customers to just give you some pointers on cloning for the homebrew scene.

Just a thought.

 

[conpewter]

Any idea how correct the grain bill is here? I'm wondering if three floyds might take a look at it and give you some direction if you email it to them? Considering they only release this once a year and they already have a veritable festival surrounding it, it wouldn't lose them any customers to just give you some pointers on cloning for the homebrew scene.

Just a thought.

I tried to contact them back when I was formulating the recipe, I didn't get a response. I may try again sometime.

 

[saq]

I tried to contact them back when I was formulating the recipe, I didn't get a response. I may try again sometime.

Same here, I just asked for any information and I never got a response. I don't think they are going to spill the beans on this jewel. It'd be nice though!

 

[ikelso]

Maybe if we managed to get someone with a bit more name recognition they might do it? Perhaps suggest this to Jamil for one of their Can You Brew It? segments. I'm very tempted to try this out in a small batch since it's so pricey. Need to find a 1 or 2 gallon container suitable to age this in.

 

[FailureDrill]

Just as a heads up, I'm reducing the amount of roasted barley for the next brew of this. Mine is still aging and is not carbed yet but I think it may be too much in the current recipe. Take a look at Saq's recipe for some inspiration as well

Thanks for the info and the updates.

 

[RandalG]

So how did this turn out? Or is it still too early to tell.

 

[slimer]

I don't know about anyone else, but mine is awesome. Not as much body as Dark Lord, but definitely a great high gravity (12.75%) Stout.

 

[conpewter]

Mine is getting better but it still needs a lot more age, great body but I think I just had too many dark malts, still fairly harsh, but I've put it in secondary with a couple vanilla beans and will leave it for another 6 months or so.

 

[RandalG]

Mine is getting better but it still needs a lot more age, great body but I think I just had too many dark malts, still fairly harsh, but I've put it in secondary with a couple vanilla beans and will leave it for another 6 months or so.

Should be ready just around next years DLD then for a taste test then eh.

 

[conpewter]

Should be ready just around next years DLD then for a taste test then eh.

That's the thought. I'm thinking of bottle conditioning this one, I'll add some yeast when I bottle, I don't want to worry about any oxidation issues from filling from a keg. I'm planning on doing the same for my pumpkin ale (for next october, OG of 1.070)

 

[RandalG]

That's the thought. I'm thinking of bottle conditioning this one, I'll add some yeast when I bottle, I don't want to worry about any oxidation issues from filling from a keg. I'm planning on doing the same for my pumpkin ale (for next october, OG of 1.070)

Nice. We'll have to hook up next year for sure. I'm about to bottle an Imperial Stout I did next week and I'm hoping by April it will be very tasty.We shall see.

 

[conpewter]

Sounds good, we should make sure to get a HBT group together, last year I was there but by myself (was still fun, but coulda been more fun with people I knew before the event)

 

[slimer]

Mine's bottled and tasty. You should try mine.

 

[humann_brewing]

how is this beer coming along conpewter?

 

[saq]

My beer was pretty good, VERY drinkable for 14.5%ish, but I don't think it was very close to a Dark Lord clone. I've been thinking about how I want to revamp this recipe and haven't really gotten very far. When I crack open a DL09 and one of my bombers for comparison I'll probably write down some notes.

 

[humann_brewing]

Can't wait to hear how it goes, I have a 12.6% imperial Porter aging for next year but this looks good too

 

[conpewter]

Mine was pretty harsh when I last tried it. I need to take another sample, it has been on vanilla beans for a couple months now. I'll get back to ya'll.

 

[andypantz13]

Well, I just got back from DLD '10 last night, and I'm now ready to give your clone recipe a shot. I converted it into a partial mash recipe, hopefully I'll show up at DLD next year with a few bottles to pass around.

 

[conpewter]

The recipe is still a work in progress. This next round I'm lowering the bittering hop additions and trying to figure out better yeast management. I got a little more alcohol taste/nose in this one than I wanted, so I really need a huge amount of yeast to work on this, with good temp control.

 

[conpewter]

New recipe, hope to brew soon. Not sure if I'll make a couple huge starters, or brew a beer specifically for the yeast cake.

Recipe: Dark Lord III
Brewer: David Bumpus

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.64 gal
Estimated OG: 1.131 SG
Estimated Color: 67.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 61.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.00 %
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item
1.00 lb Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM)
15.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US
1.50 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM)
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
1.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Roasted Barley (500.0 SRM)
0.75 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM)
0.75 lb Pale Chocolate Malt (200.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM)
0.25 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM)

1.50 oz Magnum [14.50 %] (120 min)
0.28 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min)
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10 min)

3.00 items Vanilla Beans (Secondary 2.0 weeks)
4.00 oz Cofeee (Kona) (Boil 0.0 min)
4.00 oz Cofeee (Kona) (Primary 24.0 hours)
4.00 oz Oak chips - soaked in bourbon
1.50 lb Honey (1.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Molasses (80.0 SRM)
3.00 lb Light Extract during fermentation

1 Pkgs London Ale (Wyeast #1028) (Cultured up to a higher cell count)



Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 22.75 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 28.44 qt of water at 166.5 F 151.0 F


Notes:
------
I went to Dark Lord Day last year and had the vanilla bourbon barrel aged DL and fell in love with it, this is my third recipe trying to dial it in.

Also included is 4 oz of freshly ground of ground Kona coffee at flameout and anothe 4oz of ground kona in the primary after fermentaiton. Also add 3 vanilla beans split and scraped in secondary along with the oak cubes soaked in bourbon.

mashed at 151 for 60 min.

After primary ferementation has died down, add in Honey, Molassas, and however much extract needed to hit the gravity needed (calculated after getting the OG before fermentation)

Oak cubes would be better than the chips as they won't get as astringent over time.

3/4 lb = .5 pint
1 lb molasses = .67 pint = 320 ml

1.5 lb honey = 470ml

So adding about 3/4 of a liter of volume. Plus the DME as needed

oak : Sanitizing by placing on a cookie sheet and place in a preheated 300 degree oven for 30 minutes.